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  #161  
Old Posted Aug 1, 2008, 5:03 PM
sopdx sopdx is offline
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I think it's great. It leaves the surface parking lot to the south for potential high rise development.
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  #162  
Old Posted Aug 1, 2008, 9:55 PM
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Its a challenge to take these renderings seriously because they don't seem to address the fundamental challenges of designing spec office space. The single most challenging aspect to designing the exterior of spec office building is how to handle the sill (okay, second most challenging after figuring how to economically park a building). The least common denominator tenant wants a 30" sill all around the exterior so they have lots of places to put desks--this results in the "ribbon" effect that is so common to office space. The cost effective alternative to this is reflective glass so that during the day time there is no distinction to spandrel glazing and vision glazing. And both of these options are not very interesting.

This design looks so cool because it has floor to ceiling glass (no sill for desks and no head for heating and cooling equipment, lights, sprinklers, etc to run in). But unfortunately this makes it very difficult to use for a typical office tenant--lots of opportunities for meeting rooms, but a real challenge for office workers with desks. Because the building has such a small floor plate, the lack of window space for a desk is amplified. The majority of office space I have seen like this (where there is floor to ceiling glass in an office), usually ends up looking kind of trashy because users end up stacking boxes or desks against the window (like the national library in Paris).

I think I'm turning into BrG (no offense intended), because all I see are the challenges this building will have to turn out like the renderings--the lack of a sill and a head are honest issues, not to mention BrG's very real assessment of the water proofing consequences of the extended slabs at each and every floor.
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  #163  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2008, 1:05 AM
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Its a challenge to take these renderings seriously because they don't seem to address the fundamental challenges of designing spec office space. The single most challenging aspect to designing the exterior of spec office building is how to handle the sill (okay, second most challenging after figuring how to economically park a building). The least common denominator tenant wants a 30" sill all around the exterior so they have lots of places to put desks--this results in the "ribbon" effect that is so common to office space. The cost effective alternative to this is reflective glass so that during the day time there is no distinction to spandrel glazing and vision glazing. And both of these options are not very interesting.

This design looks so cool because it has floor to ceiling glass (no sill for desks and no head for heating and cooling equipment, lights, sprinklers, etc to run in). But unfortunately this makes it very difficult to use for a typical office tenant--lots of opportunities for meeting rooms, but a real challenge for office workers with desks. Because the building has such a small floor plate, the lack of window space for a desk is amplified. The majority of office space I have seen like this (where there is floor to ceiling glass in an office), usually ends up looking kind of trashy because users end up stacking boxes or desks against the window (like the national library in Paris).

I think I'm turning into BrG (no offense intended), because all I see are the challenges this building will have to turn out like the renderings--the lack of a sill and a head are honest issues, not to mention BrG's very real assessment of the water proofing consequences of the extended slabs at each and every floor.
I am gonna go out on a limb here and say it will probably be constructed alot like how the B Side6 is being constructed, thus would mean that it would have a concrete structure that much of those things could be embedded in.

Also on this same limb, I am guessing they are going to be going after the same kind of tenants as the B Side6, which means they will probably be going after small creative businesses not the typical office space people.
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  #164  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2008, 4:43 AM
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It's fantastic! But I still think it should be a TOWER! Portland is only going to increase in population and the city should promote highrises to increase density and decrease sprawl.... Just what metro intended to do with it's failing urban growth boundary! It would be great if the city would subsidize more floors to use as needed until the market recovers! I guess my mindstate is too utopian....or maybe too European for America?
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  #165  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2008, 5:41 AM
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urbanlife, no offense intended but I don't think you understand how post tensioned concrete is constructed - not much can be "embedded" in an 8" slab full of steel. Previous comments are correct that both Bside6 and the Skylab tower will have serious issues for office layouts. Often times offices that are large enough put the circulation at the edges to allow floor to ceiling glass, but with these small floor plates I bet someone will eventually shove their bankers boxes up against the glass. The other thing overlooked by the exposed slab edge buildings is all the energy that is lost at these thermal bridges, not to mention the tricky waterproofing issues already raised by others. It is as if architects have forgotten what insulation is, and these slab edges are basically like giant radiators letting heat out when you want it in and letting heat in when you want it out. That being said, Bside6 is a much more successful design in my opinion. I feel the skylab tower is trying to do too much visually - i.e. very gratuitous. Regardless, hopefully there are enough of these "not the typical" office tenants that don't use desks to fill these buildings up. Okay I'm ranting. That's enough.
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  #166  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2008, 1:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Delaney View Post
urbanlife, no offense intended but I don't think you understand how post tensioned concrete is constructed - not much can be "embedded" in an 8" slab full of steel. Previous comments are correct that both Bside6 and the Skylab tower will have serious issues for office layouts. Often times offices that are large enough put the circulation at the edges to allow floor to ceiling glass, but with these small floor plates I bet someone will eventually shove their bankers boxes up against the glass. The other thing overlooked by the exposed slab edge buildings is all the energy that is lost at these thermal bridges, not to mention the tricky waterproofing issues already raised by others. It is as if architects have forgotten what insulation is, and these slab edges are basically like giant radiators letting heat out when you want it in and letting heat in when you want it out. That being said, Bside6 is a much more successful design in my opinion. I feel the skylab tower is trying to do too much visually - i.e. very gratuitous. Regardless, hopefully there are enough of these "not the typical" office tenants that don't use desks to fill these buildings up. Okay I'm ranting. That's enough.
none taken seeing as that you know little of what I might no about construction. I do actually know what post tension concrete. Got to watch them do it at Bside6. They had their heating and cooling system worked out just fine at Bside6. Been a while since paying attention to it, but if I remember correctly it was radiant heating and cooling for the building, and they addressed all of their insulation areas nicely. Based on the detail and quality Skylab has put into previous projects, I see this to be the same for them. Plus you forget, this is Portland, we are full of start up companies that have small numbers of employees that would do just fine in a small floor plan building like this. Such as architects, fashion designers, web companies, advertising designers, interior designers, hell one could go on and on with what could lease this building. I can understand one's need to rant, but I think this is more of an overreaction, hell it isnt like any of us have actually seen the floor plans yet, just really nice renderings.

But they way I see it, Portland is starting to finally take a chance on its small firm architects, and maybe just maybe we will be able to have more of them designing work in the city they work in, hell I would love to see Allied Works design a building in their own city. It makes no sense that they havent been able to yet.
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  #167  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2008, 4:23 PM
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Here are a couple images to better relay what the challenges are:

The issue about floor to ceiling glass in a "typical" office kind of scenario. This happens to be the Library in Paris I mentioned earlier. The space directly behind the skin is employee office space. Having lost the ability to put their desk on the window, some employees choose to put their junk there. Not real attractive (especially when one considers this is of the most expensive buildings in all of France).




We do have a very good idea about what the floor plan for this building is--the ground floor plan was shown in the pre-app posted on line. It looks like this (I added the hatch so show where the upper floor plan would be based on dashed lines):




It is indeed a small floorplate (probably around 7000 sf of office space) and it certainly could work. The challenges though are what we have talked about-the floor to ceiling glass will likely mean pulling all the desks away from the exterior because of the lack of sill-and thus making the space plan less efficient. And because it is a corner lot, it has two blank walls in the back. A lot of buildings in high-rise cities have these conditions (new york, chicago, etc). But Portland has plenty of conventional space which is much more efficient than these quirky kinds of spaces and as a consequence these would likely rent for less money because they may be seen as sub-par. At least historically they would. Perhaps B-Side6 will command cool architecture kind of rents and we will see more of it.


The issue with insulation raised earlier can be seen here:



This is a common condition that occurs in residential construction at a balcony. The issue is not that it can't be done--it happens all the time. The issue is that it is an inefficient way to skin a building because there are lots of places for heat to infiltrate in the summer and for cold air in the winter. (plus the waterproofing is a headache)

Last point about the pt slab and running stuff in the floors mentioned earlier--that happens, but it hasn't happened much in Portland. In some cities it is quite common, like Vancouver BC where this condition is the norm in high rise residential (and architects love it because it cleans up the ceiling a lot). But it is challenging because there is a lot of spaghetti in not a lot of space. Here is an example of a building in Seattle that is very clever about hiding the discharge at the sill (though I don't think this is a pt slab):




Incidentally, this kind of fractal design seen on the skin has a lot of precedent (much before this decade as I have heard some people talk about). Obviously Holst skinned the 937 tower here in a similar way recently, Rafael Moneo had a pretty interesting church skinned like this a decade or so ago, and Harry Weese desgined a Courthouse in Chicago in the mid 70s (to name a few examples of the top of my head):

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  #168  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2008, 4:53 PM
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For the record, Allied Works does have a number of ground-up buildings in Portland - Ann Sacks' 23rd and Glisan home being the most prominent. To get bigger commissions, Portland needs richer people. Allied does very expensive stuff that requires a patron more than a developer. Also, Jeff Kovel is financing this skylab tower project himself, from what I understand - not like a developer is "taking a chance". The anomaly is Lans Marrs on Bside6. Nice local real estate agent with great taste and a lot of balls. He definitely deserves some kudos for pushing the envelope.

Good to hear that radiant is in Bside6. I'd be interested to hear how thick the slabs are or if the radiant is in a topping slab over the PT. I've yet to see radiant integral to a typical PT system. Also not typical for office environments due to comfort zoning and lag time, but not to say it can't work.
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  #169  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2008, 5:48 PM
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The tower's name on Skylab's website is now "409 Tower" and is up for leasing both retail and office. We can probably assume the naming rights of the building are also up for lease.

*edit*

Last edited by NJD; Aug 2, 2008 at 7:13 PM.
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  #170  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2008, 10:18 PM
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sweet, thanks for all the info to nerd out on. There is a way within the concrete pour to put in a break for the insulation, which is hard but can be done, what I am concerned about with these new renderings is the tops of the overhangs and the water runoff, easiest way to address this is an angle to the concrete pour, but I am guessing the floorplates wont be as thin as they are in the rendering, but I could be wrong, they could easily taper them at the ends to give the illusion of a thin plate.

That is right, I did miss a few of the small Allied Works buildings. I think buildings like this and Bside6, if they work out and are a hit with the business and commercial sector of the city, we might get lucky enough to see developers start taking bigger chances with our amazing group of small firms. I personally would be proud to have Skylab, Colab, WorksPA, Allied Works, just to name a few working on big noticeable pieces of architecture in the city.



Oh and on a side note, the design of this building should complement the ZGF tower quite nicely. Still, would be cool if the quarter block lot next to this building got a 20-30 story building that was done by one of the mentioned firms.
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  #171  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2008, 8:48 PM
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Scale of Skylab tower reduced to 9 stories

Building at SW 13th and West Burnside, previously proposed as 26 stories, will include office, retail
POSTED: 04:00 AM PDT Monday, August 11, 2008
BY SAM BENNETT

In designing a building at the corner of West Burnside Street and Southwest 13th Avenue, Portland architect Jeff Kovel has faced the challenge of a tight lot and a tightening economy.

His next challenge will be satisfying the concerns of the Portland Design Commission.

Kovel last week presented a scaled-back version of the office building, known as the 409 Tower, which most members of the design commission greeted with cautious admiration.

“I really embrace this building,” said commission chair Lloyd Lindley. “It’s refreshing. I applaud you for being bold. It’s going to be a dynamic and exciting kind of building.”

At the same time, commission members said that Kovel’s use of oriel windows, which protrude slightly over the sidewalk, might need to be brought in to meet Portland Department of Transportation right-of-way standards. They also questioned his intermittent use of board-from concrete on the façade.

The building, on a rectangular lot behind the Crystal Ballroom, has been scaled back in the last year from an office/condo development to an office-only building, with retail on the ground floor.

Nearly a year ago, Kovel, who is one of the building’s developers and a founder of Skylab Architecture, came to the design commission with a 26-story proposal. Since then, economic conditions have forced Kovel to downsize the scope to a nine-story, 55,000-square-foot building.

Commission members said they were glad to see the building plans have survived the downturn in the economy. “It’s too bad it’s not as tall (as the previous design), but that’s the reality we’re living in today,” said commission member Guenevere Millius.

In his presentation to the commission, Kovel put a positive spin on the downscaling process, saying the smaller building “takes pressure off the footprint” on the small lot and “functions better” as a boutique-sized building.

Kovel said the building will be an important component in the revitalization of the area around 13th Avenue and West Burnside Street – an area that is seeing new developments such as the under-construction headquarters of Zimmer Gunsul Frasca Architects at 12th Avenue and Washington Street, the ACE Hotel at 10th Avenue and Stark Street, and the planned McMenamins building at 12th and Stark.

He said the new developments will connect the Pearl District with downtown.

“The area is ready for increased foot traffic and high-end retail,” he said. “I see this intersection (13th and Burnside) as Portland’s Times Square. All the remaining pieces will be brought to life in the next few years.”

At the ground level, the nine-story building would have timber pillars that give the impression they’re supporting the base of the building and convey a forest-like look in a densely urban environment, Kovel said.

“I’m always interested in a regional approach,” he said. “This area has an interest in modernism that is rooted in natural materials. I want to make a building that really stands out and creates a sense of human scale, with the warmth of materiality.”

Commission member Tim Eddy said it will be a “landmark building and (will) be a building that will be highly scrutinized.”

Because of its high-profile site on a tight lot, the building “will call a great deal of attention to itself and can’t be wearing a cheap suit,” Eddy added.

Eddy said Kovel might need to taper in the overhang of the oriel windows and also re-evaluate whether the 10-foot, floor-to-ceiling levels will be tall enough for office use.

In general, commission members said the design is a welcomed departure from the glass box designs they often see and applauded Kovel for making the most of the 5,000-square-foot lot.

“Some of the best innovations occur on small sites,” said Lindley. “The overall design is pretty exciting.”
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  #172  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2008, 10:49 PM
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I'd love to hear the general contractor's thoughts on this project.

I hope like heck it gets built as close to how it's rendered as possible. It WILL be a real achievement, for so many reasons.
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  #173  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2008, 10:58 PM
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I support this project but to call it a "tower" is a stretch, imo.

Last edited by PacificNW; Aug 13, 2008 at 7:10 PM.
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  #174  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2008, 7:23 PM
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Why can't the developer utilize the backside of the building. People traveling from west - east down burnside will have a lovely brick wall to look at as they enter into downtown.

The Crystal Ballroom should sell its air rights and FAR to another developer as it is a historic structure. Then the 409 tower (the name is still debatable), can place windows on its Western edge.

I am sick of looking at massive brick walls.
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  #175  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2008, 2:29 AM
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Why can't the developer utilize the backside of the building. People traveling from west - east down burnside will have a lovely brick wall to look at as they enter into downtown.

The Crystal Ballroom should sell its air rights and FAR to another developer as it is a historic structure. Then the 409 tower (the name is still debatable), can place windows on its Western edge.

I am sick of looking at massive brick walls.
well the layout of the floor plates wouldnt matter much if they did that.
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  #176  
Old Posted Oct 22, 2008, 2:59 AM
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  #177  
Old Posted Oct 22, 2008, 4:05 AM
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Possible groundbreaking next May!
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  #178  
Old Posted Oct 22, 2008, 11:28 PM
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Was near this building today and they're putting up big letters on the current building that say "Weave Building." Should have snapped a pic, but seemed like some form of hopeful progress. *shrug*
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  #179  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2008, 6:51 AM
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Originally Posted by CouvScott View Post
Since then, economic conditions have forced Kovel to downsize the scope to a nine-story, 55,000-square-foot building.
Just stupid. Or insane. The offices at Tidewater Cove (Vancouver, https://secure.loopnet.com/xNet/MainSite...linkcode=1070&sourcecode=1lww2t006a00002) are about 55,000 square feet, squished into two stories (+underground parking.) So they're only going 9 stories for this? So, about 140 feet? That's nothing on Burnside.

This city's idea of density is pathetic. We need to think bigger, especially when the developers want to.

Dave
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  #180  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2008, 3:33 PM
PDX City-State PDX City-State is offline
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Dave Hagan:

You obviously don't know what you're talking about. In the current economy, a shorter building makes more sense. Developers, though you like to bad mouth them, take enormous financial and personal risks to building tall buildings, and success or failure depends on their ability to fill them. There will be many tall buildings once the market returns. For now, this is what makes sense. It's easy to point fingers from the sidelines.
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