Centre Mall -> The Centre on Barton

[markbarbera]

You are not the only person who will miss yarnopolis...

[matt602]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

Quote


hamiltonguy and matt602 may recall (or may not) that there were once fountains at both ends of the mall--I assume the one in front of Sears was removed around the time Sears reduced the size of it's store and additional mall space was extended into what had been the front portion of Sears.

Heh, I do believe I remember that. I had almost said "fountains" in my original post because of it.

[hamiltonguy]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

Quote
Anyone buying a system from EHR isn't going to want some trashy tin-foil thing from Best Buy or Future Shop.
It's completely different markets.

My point exactly--though calling Best Buy and Future Shop's wares 'trashy tin-foil' is a bit extreme. Those stores both sell a fairly broad spectrum of goods--from the low-end to midscale, whereas EHR focuses primarily on higher end merchandise, with some midscale goods. The entire argument about EHR and Ottawa Street validates a point I've been trying to make for years, that big-box stores do not put good, service-oriented, specialty retailers out-of-business. Consider the fact that I've come back from Windsor a couple of times to buy goods at EHR.

hamiltonguy and matt602 may recall (or may not) that there were once fountains at both ends of the mall--I assume the one in front of Sears was removed around the time Sears reduced the size of it's store and additional mall space was extended into what had been the front portion of Sears.

I remember the fountain by Sears for sure. I believe the new food "court" is around that place now

[matt602]

Kind of, yep. Jim's Nut Shack was also right there. It is now a lottery booth.

I always found it odd that they even bothered re-configuring the food court at the Centre, so close to all this new construction. Not sure why they didn't just hang onto the old arrangement (is the new Zellers being built on the old food court's space?)

[markbarbera]

yes matt, the old Kmart spot and the food court was demolished in advance of construction of the new Zellers. A portion of the new Zellers footprint overlays that area. Futher west is the grocery store site, which will stand basically where the cinemas/bingo used to be. Canadian Tire is down the far northeast corner, roughly where the Sears Automotive/Active Green+Ross building used to be.

[flar]

I snapped this shot of the Sears end of the Mall a couple weeks ago:



(the picture looks old because I processed it that way for a photo thread on a certain mid century style - the future is now!)

[raisethehammer]

what a classic design. wow. great photo flar.

[matt602]

good one flar. I thought it was a film shot.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I forgot about those crazy blond colored tiles--but that is the structure I remember--when I was a little guy I would lean against the slanted bricks and pull myself up so I could see into the fountain--threw lots of pennies in there as a boy. Sad to see the place looking stripped of most of it's major retailers--you can certainly still see the original design--with the pillars supporting what was the canopy which ran along the facades of the stores when it was an open-air centre. Great shot Flar...as always.

[hammergirl]

I remember trying to climb up the slanted bricks of the fountain as a kid.

[astroblaster]

Originally Posted by hammergirl

I remember trying to climb up the slanted bricks of the fountain as a kid.

yup, did that too.. i loved that place

[markbarbera]

Interesting developments in the grocery store business is making me rethink the possible grocery store being located at Centre Mall. Redcliff has been coy about the grocery retailer that will locate in the spot here, and a lot of us (myself included) assumed it was a Real Canadian Superstore going here. However, this was never really confirmed. I was also wondering how (and why) they could manage an end-run around Metro, which owns the Centre Mall location of The Barn (including the actual real estate). Also, at 105,000 square feet, the grocery store site at Centre Mall is half the size of the latest RCSS format.

Yesterday, Metro announced it was abandoning the Loeb's, A&P, Dominion and The Barn brands in Ontario, and is rebranding them all under their flagship brand, Metro (the rebranding work has already started on the Upper James location of The Barn). I now believe that the grocery store remaining at Centre Mall will actually be a Metro Plus. Of course, this is pure speculation, but this scenario makes much more sense than Metro selling out a prime spot in a high-profile retail area, freeing it up for a competitor's flagship concept to move in. At any rate, Redcliffe should be announcing the remaining major tenants later this month.

[DC83]

I like Metro, it's where I shopped when I was living in Montreal. But it's nothing special. I'd rather a mega-fortino's than a Metro.
...unless they'll sell booze in their Ontario stores...

I'm pretty sure it's going to be a RCSS or Loblaws Supersotre like @ Burnhamthorpe & Hwy427 in Etobicoke. The drawing they use in their render is identical to that particular store!

Something along the lines of this:



Or the one I'm referring to on Sat:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&geo...79.558868&spn=0.008742,0.016479&t=h&z=16

[fastcarsfreedom]

My understanding is that any "coyness" about the grocery/retail tenant at the Centre site is related to Loblaws' indecision over where exactly the Real Canadian Superstore format stores will be located vis-a-vis traditional banners like Fortinos. RCSS has a few different format sizes--thought I haven't been in the location in Grimsby, I suspect it would be right around 105,000 squart feet, perhaps a bit more. At no time during this process has A&P ever been mentioned as being part of the equation.

Interesting move on Metro's part. They are taking down the A&P name, as well as Dominion, The Barn and Loeb in the GTA, Hamilton and Ottawa respectively--erasing years of brand equity in order to roll out a name/brand that has zero equity outside Quebec. All of our local A&Ps were just renovated--and they look great--and I've noticed the Metro private-labels slowly moving in, displacing the old A&P private-names. My impression is that the stores will go from being mediocre also-rans with strong brand equity to being mediocre also-rans with no brand equity...and will end up the #3 or #4 player in most Ontario markets (behind Walmart, Loblaws and Sobeys).

[markbarbera]

The involvement of Loblaw group here has always been no more than speculative, be it talk of a Fortino's or RCSS. Neither Loblaw nor Redcliffe have ever mentioned (or even hinted at) what grocery store will be present.

While the decision by Metro to consolidate under one flag in Ontario may be a difficult one from a sentimental perspective, it's the right one to make. The A&P, Barn, Dominion and Loeb's banners were way to costly to maintain, and the brands were becoming stale. Consumer loyalty to these banners is overrated. Seeing as the product line has already been 'aligned' to the Metro product line, the impact on the consumer will be marginal. In fact, the new banner will likely inject new life into the Ontario locations. And, running one banner rather than five will generate operational cost savings that can be applied to make pricing more competetive at a time where price competitiveness is crucial in the retail food sector.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by DC83

I like Metro, it's where I shopped when I was living in Montreal. But it's nothing special. I'd rather a mega-fortino's than a Metro.
...unless they'll sell booze in their Ontario stores...

I'm pretty sure it's going to be a RCSS or Loblaws Supersotre like @ Burnhamthorpe & Hwy427 in Etobicoke. The drawing they use in their render is identical to that particular store!

Something along the lines of this:



Or the one I'm referring to on Sat:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&geo...79.558868&spn=0.008742,0.016479&t=h&z=16

your pic didn't show up.

[fastcarsfreedom]

That may ultimately be the case markbarbera--but past experience by retailers including Macy's Inc, has proven otherwise. Metro is an unknown entity outside of Quebec--and they are launching a new brand name at a time of intense and unrelenting competition. It is true that brand "equity" is a difficult thing to quantify--but there have certainly been cases where other retailers (Provigo's Maxi/Maxi&Co and Super C chains) failed to gain any traction in Ontario. Moreover, Loblaws, long considered the 'masters' of food retailing--have held onto their regional brands with great sucess. Frankly the "cost" of maintaining the separate banners is small relative to the enormous expenditure Metro is anticpating for the changeover. Flyers and advertising are already produced on a regional basis--and one assumes will continue to be.

Walmart has barely dipped it's toe into full grocery retailing--but it will be up and fully running in very short order. My guess is that "standard" Walmart stores will become increasingly rare, and all new construction will be Supercentres. Every grocery retailer in operation will lose share as Walmart rolls these stores out. As they've done so on a regional basis in the U.S, it has been almost inevitable that the weakest and/or highest cost operator in a given region is either driven out or forced to massively restructure. Witness the carnage at Winn-Dixie. On the flip-side, stores that find a "niche" have thrived--witness Publix, also in the U.S. SE which is a full-service, high quality, high customer service operator--a model Sobeys is pursuing. Loblaw appears more intent on facing Walmart more squarely--rolling out Superstores and leveraging it's exclusive private labels. That leaves Metro/A&P to do what--attempt to compete on price? Good luck with that.

Either way, I thought that RCSS was basically a lock for the Centre site--not confirmed, but certainly a poorly kept secret. Does anyone know the disposition of The Barn location--as far as real estate is concerned? Was it sold to Redcliffe? If Metro is leaving the site it could be an indication that the store is a dog--flat or sinking sales and high shrink. It's an old store that has had little more than cosmetic updates since Dominion last renovated it in the 1980s--and it's not a long-haul from Price Chopper--or it's own ilk--the scary Food Basics next to the Barton Street Hilton. I haven't been in the store in years--so I'm no expert--but instinct tells me the store is probably a weaker performer.

[markbarbera]

I have shopped at this location somewhat frequently and it is not a dog in any respect. In fact, I would say it is one of the stronger performers in the area. It has always been packed with customers every time I have been there, although the current construction is impacting it. I suspect the fact that it is the only real mainstream grocery store in an area surrounded by discount grocery stores must give it a boost.

Methinks you are overestimating the impact Walmart will have on the grocery store business in Ontario. The Canadian retail experience of the past decade has shown that general merchandise stores that have introduced groceries have not managed to capture significant market share away from traditional grocery stores. Remember how Costco was going to kill the grocer? Canada's big three grocery chains (Loblaw, Sobey and Metro) have been preemptive in their strategy to meet the Walmart challenge, and the initial impact of Walmart on the Ancaster grocery market has been negligable.

Comparing to Provigo is kinda like comparing apples and oranges. Remember Metro will have an 'instant' market presence of over 150 stores in Ontario. Any retailer entering a market would kill for that kind of visual impact, Walmart included. Some say Metro should have done this in 2005 when they first bought up A&P, but they decided to get their supply chain and management information systems integrated prior to brand unification. And the Centre Mall site would give it a change to showcase its new 100,000 square foot MetroPlus format to the Ontario market.

[raisethehammer]

I wouldn't dare spend a dime on groceries at Walmart.
It sucks that we're losing another made-in-Hamilton name in the Barn, although they became disconnected with the realities of this city years ago.
Still, it'll be a sad day to see all these 'Metro' stores everywhere.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Like I said mark, perhaps. It remains to be seen. I'm not a shareholder--if I were I would be questioning the size of the expenditure for the rebranding. Metro does get kudos for their supply-chain work--an area where Canadian retailers have been traditionally slow (pathetic)...witness the nightmare Loblaw has had with supply chain over the past several years--the local RCSS has been entirely re-merchandised on the non-grocery side at least twice since it opened.

I am hesitant to UNDER-estimate anything Walmart does. Love them or hate them, they are either the best, or nearly the best, at everything they do. I can't think of a general merchandise retailer in recent memory that has introduced a full grocery line--please enlighten me. I can think of a grocery retailer (Loblaw) which has attempted the reverse strategy numerous times--and has done so poorly repeatedly. RCSS has been their best effort yet, but it is still a light/food-focused (half-assed) effort--particularly in apparel. Costco is a different animal altogether--and never presented a threat to 'traditional' grocers.

RTH--it's ok, we know you don't shop at Walmart, no one is going to think otherwise. I am still a member of the great unwashed--yet to be led to the font of redemption. I'm not all that frequent of a Walmart shopper--but once the nearby Supercentre is finished I will certainly give it a shot--and it will pop-up on my weekly shopping radar, along with the other local stores. I can walk to A&P, which is the only reason I ever go--otherwise their price-points are far-and-away the highest among the local chains. They (and Sobeys) also operate 24/7...a strategy I hope Metro retains.