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  #41  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2007, 12:37 AM
Dr. Taco Dr. Taco is offline
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if you don't mind, one post of UIC images gleaned from flickr

Student Center

http://flickr.com/photos/rbassman/74333729/


Outside SEL and classrooms

http://flickr.com/photos/rbassman/74333726/


Cavernous SEL walkway (60' ish ceiling)

http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=13210189&size=o


outside the quad

http://flickr.com/photos/rbassman/74333728/


Pavilion

http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=393513381&size=m&context=photostream


it'd be hard for UIC to get much attention without its close proximity to downtown. hopefully that will change soon

http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=454669419&size=m


Recreation center (a new building??? )

http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=456116215&size=m


Commons dorms

http://flickr.com/photos/jamesandrachuk/303636178/


and, as steely mentioned, these are pretty nice buildings

Science and Engineering Offices

http://flickr.com/photos/belsner/28782652/


University Hall (tallest building on the west side)

http://flickr.com/photos/belsner/8841281/


not that bad of a campus. just stay away from the "snow flake" buildings! or at least outside of them
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  #42  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2007, 3:47 AM
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boo hoo

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  #43  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2007, 3:52 AM
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
Space travel and surgery require science. Aesthetics is art, and purely subjective.

Most forms of art are great opportunities for the artists to go nuts and do their own thing, because you can either look/hear/buy them or not, your choice. And naturally some people like avante garde art, but most don't pay much attention or actively dislike some or all of it. They certainly remain choosy about what's on their walls.

Architecture is the environment everyone has to live in, or walk past. We can't opt in or out, except for buildings we personally pay for. So architecture should be subject to the opinions of the public.

Would you tell a hair stylist to use their expertise and do what they want? Of course not. You'd tell them how you want it, despite your total lack of schooling on the subject. Despite being just some rube that has to live with the hair they create.

You can argue that you're paying for the hair while most people aren't paying for the buildings they walk past. But then you'd be giving in to uncontrolled capitalism, the dollar is king, and so on. Architectural theory doesn't tend to jibe with that concept.

Arguing with architects is generally pointless. But we're progressing. Many architects are finally beyond their myopia about what the public likes, and have now fallen back and retrenched at "the public is wrong".
The subjectiveness and aesthetics of art or architecture are completely irrelevant to both practices. As stated earlier, there is so much more to architecture than aesthetics and there is so much more to art as well. Generally, people like and dislike art for irrelevant ("the wrong") reasons. This is not elitist, it is a fact of life. Just because anyone can look at art and comprehend it on some level does not mean they have any credibility on the subject. Architects spend seven years in school. Many people study art for their entire lives. No member of the general public could have ever accomplished what Mies Van Der Rohe, Mondrian, Monet, Picasso, Warhal, or anyone else of such calibre. For example, I'm sure many people today question why Mondrian's work hangs in galleries. "It is so simple. My kid could to that." On the contrary. Works such as Tableau 2 were created during the beginning of the Industrial Revolution and represent a brand new way of looking at and seeing the world. Artists shine new light on the world; they allow us to see differently. People have to realise when they are out of their league in the comments they make. As an architecture student, I realise that when I speak with instructors, they are thinking on a much higher level than I. It's just the nature of a culturally refined society.

Mies Van Der Rohe's work, along with many of the leaders of Modernism (Gropious, Corbusier, Reitveld, Paxton et al.) created a new, simplified expression representative of a new era. One of the reasons we have such a large collection of poor architecture today is because of people who thought they understood Modernism copied its surface qualities (pun intended). They did not take the underlying value and significance of early modernist work. People need to understand before they engage.

This has nothing to do with a preference for Modernism. It has everything to do with respecting each artistic movement for its underlying values.

Your comment about hairstylists is completely irrelevant. They are hair stylists, not artists. And I'm sure the hair stylists that are artists don't take orders from their unknowing clients. These would be the people who style the hair of runway models and the like.
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  #44  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2007, 3:21 PM
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When I made my comment the other day I didn't mean a building has to look pretty to be good architecture. Don't get me wrong that's not what I said at all.

This is what I meant:

If you're an architect and design a certain building and it gets built. If the people who have to use it hate it, hate living / working inside it, come out at the end of the day feeling shit, basically a combination of these things including aesthetics, then your building has failed full stop. (Of course unless you purposefully want people to stay away from it such as a nuclear power plant or a prison).

This is why I don't get these arrogant statements about "who gives a fuck what the general public thinks, they're a pack of idiots anyway who know nothing". It's not so much what the public thinks but how they feel when they're around the building in question. Thing is, you might think the general public knows nothing, and that may be right but they're the people at the end of the day who have to use your building.

People talk about art and architecture. I really don't think they're the same thing one bit. In art you can create art for yourself, people might like it, people might not, it doesn't really matter, or else you might be creating art as an "experiment" with a certain ideology in mind where not everyone will understand it. I'm not saying architecture theory is bullshit but if at the end of the day the people using your building hate it then tough luck, no matter how much thought has gone into it, something went wrong.
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  #45  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2007, 6:58 PM
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There are hundreds of post-war campuses in North America - some of them truly horrendous & inhuman - windowless cinder-block cities, cut from public funds & built in nanoseconds on the cheap. IIT, at the very least, has windows LOL! Even if you detest the machine-for-learning aesthetic, you can find much worse than IIT in just about any city of decent size on the continent. So I agree with the original poster here - what the heck is this small, well-detailed inner-city campus doing on the fugly list?

Besides, at what other campus anywhere are you gonna find a neato elevated train that runs through a big orange tube, right in the middle of campus?

Last edited by wrab; Dec 8, 2007 at 7:08 PM.
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  #46  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2007, 7:21 PM
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I'm amazed that Oral Roberts University didn't make the list.

Personally, I kind of like it. But, it was built entirely in the mid-60's in the Space Age style. It hasn't aged well either.
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  #47  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2007, 7:49 PM
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boo hoo

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Yeah! You guys aren't from the south. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT PAIN IS!

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  #48  
Old Posted Feb 29, 2008, 11:25 AM
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Two proverbs come to mind regarding this thread

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

and

"Opinions are like assholes; everyone has one and most of then stink"
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  #49  
Old Posted Feb 29, 2008, 1:14 PM
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Wow. Cliches really put this into light for me.
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  #50  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2008, 2:19 AM
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I like Oral Roberts U! Well, at least I like the Prayer Tower. The other buildings aren't so hot.

Anyway, don't architects have a responsibility to design buildings that are pleasant to live and work in? This is where modernism has failed in many attempts - not to say that all of Modernism is failure. I personally think that Mies' office buildings are wonderful and quite pleasant, mainly because they embrace glass so much, allowing for transparency from the outside and from the inside. I thought Crown Hall was quite pleasant, too. In my opinion, a good Modernist building is like a person who comes to a party and enriches the laughter and conversation by bringing out the best in others - not like somebody who comes and steals the show.
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  #51  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2008, 1:34 PM
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IIT campus is elegantly beautiful

For those that don't understand Ludwig Mies Van Der Rohe check out this music video about the master.

Video Link


As a resident in a Chicago Mies building, the quality of life is amazing, open layouts, floor to ceiling glass walls, and great locations with amazing views. In our building, very few units are ever up for sale; many residents, once they buy in, never leave. I would like to hear an IIT student's view on the atmosphere of Mies' academic buildings.
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  #52  
Old Posted May 3, 2008, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by natelox View Post
The subjectiveness and aesthetics of art or architecture are completely irrelevant to both practices. As stated earlier, there is so much more to architecture than aesthetics and there is so much more to art as well. Generally, people like and dislike art for irrelevant ("the wrong") reasons. This is not elitist, it is a fact of life. Just because anyone can look at art and comprehend it on some level does not mean they have any credibility on the subject. Architects spend seven years in school. Many people study art for their entire lives. No member of the general public could have ever accomplished what Mies Van Der Rohe, Mondrian, Monet, Picasso, Warhal, or anyone else of such calibre. For example, I'm sure many people today question why Mondrian's work hangs in galleries. "It is so simple. My kid could to that." On the contrary. Works such as Tableau 2 were created during the beginning of the Industrial Revolution and represent a brand new way of looking at and seeing the world. Artists shine new light on the world; they allow us to see differently. People have to realise when they are out of their league in the comments they make. As an architecture student, I realise that when I speak with instructors, they are thinking on a much higher level than I. It's just the nature of a culturally refined society.

Mies Van Der Rohe's work, along with many of the leaders of Modernism (Gropious, Corbusier, Reitveld, Paxton et al.) created a new, simplified expression representative of a new era. One of the reasons we have such a large collection of poor architecture today is because of people who thought they understood Modernism copied its surface qualities (pun intended). They did not take the underlying value and significance of early modernist work. People need to understand before they engage.

This has nothing to do with a preference for Modernism. It has everything to do with respecting each artistic movement for its underlying values.

Your comment about hairstylists is completely irrelevant. They are hair stylists, not artists. And I'm sure the hair stylists that are artists don't take orders from their unknowing clients. These would be the people who style the hair of runway models and the like.
Excellence.
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  #53  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2008, 9:23 PM
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Originally Posted by natelox View Post
The subjectiveness and aesthetics of art or architecture are completely irrelevant to both practices. As stated earlier, there is so much more to architecture than aesthetics and there is so much more to art as well. Generally, people like and dislike art for irrelevant ("the wrong") reasons. This is not elitist, it is a fact of life. Just because anyone can look at art and comprehend it on some level does not mean they have any credibility on the subject. Architects spend seven years in school. Many people study art for their entire lives. No member of the general public could have ever accomplished what Mies Van Der Rohe, Mondrian, Monet, Picasso, Warhal, or anyone else of such calibre. For example, I'm sure many people today question why Mondrian's work hangs in galleries. "It is so simple. My kid could to that." On the contrary. Works such as Tableau 2 were created during the beginning of the Industrial Revolution and represent a brand new way of looking at and seeing the world. Artists shine new light on the world; they allow us to see differently. People have to realise when they are out of their league in the comments they make. As an architecture student, I realise that when I speak with instructors, they are thinking on a much higher level than I. It's just the nature of a culturally refined society.

Mies Van Der Rohe's work, along with many of the leaders of Modernism (Gropious, Corbusier, Reitveld, Paxton et al.) created a new, simplified expression representative of a new era. One of the reasons we have such a large collection of poor architecture today is because of people who thought they understood Modernism copied its surface qualities (pun intended). They did not take the underlying value and significance of early modernist work. People need to understand before they engage.

This has nothing to do with a preference for Modernism. It has everything to do with respecting each artistic movement for its underlying values.

Your comment about hairstylists is completely irrelevant. They are hair stylists, not artists. And I'm sure the hair stylists that are artists don't take orders from their unknowing clients. These would be the people who style the hair of runway models and the like.
The idea that aesthetics/beauty is irrelevant to the evaluation of architecture is equally subjective and arbitrary. The idea that someone can dismiss art or architecture for 'wrong' reasons is subjective and arbitrary. Your definition of art as a 'practice' is subjective and arbitrary. If art is an institution, defined by those few who are privileged enough to be included in its practice, then your points are certainly valid. But that's not how our community defines art. Most understand the evaluation of art as precisely that--evaluative. We endeavor to describe, not prescribe, what art is and what it means over time. You cannot reduce art to an institution or practice. The appreciation of art is a shared human experience. You cannot prescribe what it means; you can only describe it. If there is anything true of art, it's that we haven't come up with any necessary or sufficient conditions for what it encompasses. There is, at best, overlapping consensus, which is how we determine what any word means. We agree on what an orange is; we occasionally agree on what art is. Beauty tends to factor into that equation, and we tend to agree about what is beautiful. The more we evaluate beauty scientifically, the more we realize it conforms to basic notions of symmetry, proportion, and so on. That is not arbitrary. At that point we are describing what beauty is as a natural and irreducible human experience, and by those standards, we can judge (albeit imperfectly) whether something is beautiful or not according to the common understanding of the term. And yet, there is nothing objective to this analysis, and perhaps we've even come to include more subjective ideas of beauty into our definition of art (encompassing things traditionally considered ugly or vile). However, beauty and art are still words that refer to things, and communities will always strive to make their application consistent (it is a basic requirement of language). For example, art (we seem to agree) requires artifice--it has to be made. If I call a pebble a work of art, I'd be wrong. That is not what the word *means*. Similarly, if I call an apple an orange, I'd be wrong. Words carry more fundamental meanings to a community that cannot be impeached by those who seek to discard them. Whether beauty is essential for art is open to question; it's dependent on how our community uses the term. But to say people have 'wrong' reasons for calling something ugly or unartistic approaches absurdity. It goes beyond a discussion of art and encroaches on a theory of language.

Last edited by elysium; Jul 21, 2008 at 9:40 PM.
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  #54  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2008, 2:55 AM
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I do not believe that art or architecture needs to be, or is, esoteric or elitist (prescribed), but my comments about 'the wrong' reasons for disliking art are indicative of people's lack of interest in actually looking at things closely. Few people are able to verbalize why they find a piece of work ugly. To say that a work of art is ugly because it is unsymmetrical or disproportionate is much better than no rationalization, though it still lacks the further probing question of 'why is it ugly because it is unsymmetrical or disproportionate?' I would much rather hear that a piece of art makes the viewer aggravated because it is unsymmetrical (and thus the viewer wants it to be symmetrical or asymmetrical), than hear that it is ugly. Once the viewer states it is aggravating, then we can ask if that emotion is what the artist intended to derive. Rationalization of acceptance or dismissal is important because it allows us to look at art objectively. E.H. Gombrich's seminal 'Story of Art' suggests people may find certain works of art ugly because of bad past experiences, or associations. If Joe doesn't like the taste of apples, will his judgement of a painting of an apple as 'ugly' have any relevance (this is obviously simplified, but I hope you get my drift). Clement Greenberg, a famous art critic is famous for his statement "all profoundly original art looks ugly at first." It is difficult to move forward if we look at everything with a stagnant mind. Reducing art to a matter of beauty or ugliness is to miss the point.
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  #55  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2008, 4:36 AM
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Originally Posted by AdrianXSands View Post
are you talking about me or the dude who made the list?




1st. the 'general public' think phillip johnson was a great architect.

2nd. anyone who dismisses mies has NO place having an opinion of architecture. period. dislikes the aethetics of a mies building for educated reasons and is able to back up why... okay, i'd accept that... but to ignorantly and arrogantly call it crap?... find a new hobby.

which is why we rarely see great archiecture in the US. and the great architecture that does come around here and again is severely dumbed down to america's general public 'taste'


Mostly true. Though in America a lot of it also comes down to cost. To be so rich, Americans do not like to spend money on buildings.

Last edited by holladay; Jul 22, 2008 at 5:02 AM.
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  #56  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2008, 4:50 AM
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Originally Posted by natelox View Post
The subjectiveness and aesthetics of art or architecture are completely irrelevant to both practices. As stated earlier, there is so much more to architecture than aesthetics and there is so much more to art as well. Generally, people like and dislike art for irrelevant ("the wrong") reasons. This is not elitist, it is a fact of life. Just because anyone can look at art and comprehend it on some level does not mean they have any credibility on the subject. Architects spend seven years in school. Many people study art for their entire lives. No member of the general public could have ever accomplished what Mies Van Der Rohe, Mondrian, Monet, Picasso, Warhal, or anyone else of such calibre. For example, I'm sure many people today question why Mondrian's work hangs in galleries. "It is so simple. My kid could to that." On the contrary. Works such as Tableau 2 were created during the beginning of the Industrial Revolution and represent a brand new way of looking at and seeing the world. Artists shine new light on the world; they allow us to see differently. People have to realise when they are out of their league in the comments they make. As an architecture student, I realise that when I speak with instructors, they are thinking on a much higher level than I. It's just the nature of a culturally refined society.

Mies Van Der Rohe's work, along with many of the leaders of Modernism (Gropious, Corbusier, Reitveld, Paxton et al.) created a new, simplified expression representative of a new era. One of the reasons we have such a large collection of poor architecture today is because of people who thought they understood Modernism copied its surface qualities (pun intended). They did not take the underlying value and significance of early modernist work. People need to understand before they engage.

This has nothing to do with a preference for Modernism. It has everything to do with respecting each artistic movement for its underlying values.

Your comment about hairstylists is completely irrelevant. They are hair stylists, not artists. And I'm sure the hair stylists that are artists don't take orders from their unknowing clients. These would be the people who style the hair of runway models and the like.
Good post.
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  #57  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2008, 4:58 AM
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Originally Posted by elysium View Post
The idea that aesthetics/beauty is irrelevant to the evaluation of architecture is equally subjective and arbitrary. The idea that someone can dismiss art or architecture for 'wrong' reasons is subjective and arbitrary. Your definition of art as a 'practice' is subjective and arbitrary. If art is an institution, defined by those few who are privileged enough to be included in its practice, then your points are certainly valid. But that's not how our community defines art. Most understand the evaluation of art as precisely that--evaluative. We endeavor to describe, not prescribe, what art is and what it means over time. You cannot reduce art to an institution or practice. The appreciation of art is a shared human experience. You cannot prescribe what it means; you can only describe it. If there is anything true of art, it's that we haven't come up with any necessary or sufficient conditions for what it encompasses. There is, at best, overlapping consensus, which is how we determine what any word means. We agree on what an orange is; we occasionally agree on what art is. Beauty tends to factor into that equation, and we tend to agree about what is beautiful. The more we evaluate beauty scientifically, the more we realize it conforms to basic notions of symmetry, proportion, and so on. That is not arbitrary. At that point we are describing what beauty is as a natural and irreducible human experience, and by those standards, we can judge (albeit imperfectly) whether something is beautiful or not according to the common understanding of the term. And yet, there is nothing objective to this analysis, and perhaps we've even come to include more subjective ideas of beauty into our definition of art (encompassing things traditionally considered ugly or vile). However, beauty and art are still words that refer to things, and communities will always strive to make their application consistent (it is a basic requirement of language). For example, art (we seem to agree) requires artifice--it has to be made. If I call a pebble a work of art, I'd be wrong. That is not what the word *means*. Similarly, if I call an apple an orange, I'd be wrong. Words carry more fundamental meanings to a community that cannot be impeached by those who seek to discard them. Whether beauty is essential for art is open to question; it's dependent on how our community uses the term. But to say people have 'wrong' reasons for calling something ugly or unartistic approaches absurdity. It goes beyond a discussion of art and encroaches on a theory of language.
Excellent response.
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  #58  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2008, 5:04 AM
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Originally Posted by natelox View Post
Clement Greenberg, a famous art critic is famous for his statement "all profoundly original art looks ugly at first."
I hadn't heard that quote before, but how true.
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  #59  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2008, 5:27 AM
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Originally Posted by AdrianXSands View Post
are you talking about me or the dude who made the list?




1st. the 'general public' think phillip johnson was a great architect.

2nd. anyone who dismisses mies has NO place having an opinion of architecture. period. dislikes the aethetics of a mies building for educated reasons and is able to back up why... okay, i'd accept that... but to ignorantly and arrogantly call it crap?... find a new hobby.




uhhh, well i could be wrong about this but, IIT is an archiecture and engineering school...



which is why we rarely see great archiecture in the US. and the great architecture that does come around here and again is severely dumbed down to america's general public 'taste'



architecture is so much more advanced than just art. there is so much more to architecture than just making buildings look 'good'
Speaking of things that are "severely dumbed down," you could at least supplement your highfalutin appreciation of architecture with a basic respect for the English language.

"architecture is so much more advanced than just art." This statement does violence to art. You should strive to be equitable, restrained, cordial, and thoughtful in all your judgments. If you think you know what art is, then you should qualify it with more than an unconsidered sentiment of the form, "This is this."
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  #60  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2008, 5:57 AM
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Originally Posted by natelox View Post
I do not believe that art or architecture needs to be, or is, esoteric or elitist (prescribed), but my comments about 'the wrong' reasons for disliking art are indicative of people's lack of interest in actually looking at things closely. Few people are able to verbalize why they find a piece of work ugly. To say that a work of art is ugly because it is unsymmetrical or disproportionate is much better than no rationalization, though it still lacks the further probing question of 'why is it ugly because it is unsymmetrical or disproportionate?' I would much rather hear that a piece of art makes the viewer aggravated because it is unsymmetrical (and thus the viewer wants it to be symmetrical or asymmetrical), than hear that it is ugly. Once the viewer states it is aggravating, then we can ask if that emotion is what the artist intended to derive. Rationalization of acceptance or dismissal is important because it allows us to look at art objectively. E.H. Gombrich's seminal 'Story of Art' suggests people may find certain works of art ugly because of bad past experiences, or associations. If Joe doesn't like the taste of apples, will his judgement of a painting of an apple as 'ugly' have any relevance (this is obviously simplified, but I hope you get my drift). Clement Greenberg, a famous art critic is famous for his statement "all profoundly original art looks ugly at first." It is difficult to move forward if we look at everything with a stagnant mind. Reducing art to a matter of beauty or ugliness is to miss the point.
The point is that art can't be reduced to anything. An orange can't be reduced to anything either. Someone might think of an orange as a semi-spherical object that comes from trees; others might think it's a scrumptious dessert with an interesting texture. It doesn't matter. They refer to properties of the same object, each of which will always be appreciated and recognized differently. But there is no question as to what is referred to when we say 'orange' despite the multifarious descriptions we might provide for it. Orange growers (like art critics) might have their own descriptions, but they don't control what is meant by 'orange' (or art). What is meant by a word is how it's already used. We can't nail down any standard use for the word 'art.' It escapes us and borders on meaninglessness. You can confine the term to your own community of art critics (or architecture critics, what have you), but you can't go into another community and assert your own private description of art and proclaim it 'right.' There is no way to be objective about art. I think you're right that art can't be reduced to beauty or ugliness (I think the common use of the term includes more than that), but it can certainly be judged according to those standards. I might say, "that's BAD art" because it's ugly. I'm afraid there's no way you can objectively refute that assertion. You just think of art differently, just as you think of an orange differently. We identify with different properties of the same object. We might agree that something is art; we might disagree as to whether it's good art. I think what you're debating is whether something is good art or not, in which case there is no right or wrong. A justification for why someone considers a building ugly might be more satisfying to you, but it's no more or less arbitrary.
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