HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Mountain West


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #181  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2008, 3:13 PM
enjo13 enjo13 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Riverfront Park (Denver)
Posts: 1,833
Also, Portland trains have these awesome bicycle racks. You just hang your bike and sit down. They had LOTS of capacity for bikes...

In Denver.. not so much. You have to hold your bike and each train has capacity for like two bikes total.

*sighs*
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #182  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2008, 5:19 PM
1Post2's Avatar
1Post2 1Post2 is offline
going there, no direction
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: the road to nowhere
Posts: 1,212
what could the technical reasons be? are there not sd-100s and 160s out there that have every seat facing forward? the only reason I can think of that we've got the seats like they are is so that the train can operate in both directions without any awkwardness.
__________________
I'm in a music video.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #183  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2008, 9:04 PM
bcp's Avatar
bcp bcp is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 5,143
^ riding in a backward facing seat is much less awkward then what we have now (and we already have backward facing seats)

the bike thing...yes...here is what is even better - you have to register your boke through RTD, take an online test, and carry a CARD with you in order to legally have permission to stand at the back of the train-car with your bike...

can you imagine if RTD ran healthcare?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #184  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2008, 7:44 AM
Octavian Octavian is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,023
I'd be reluctant to vote them more money.

FasTracks budget off rails

RTD admits it can't deliver the plan it promised voters

By Kevin Flynn

Friday, July 18, 2008

RTD conceded Friday that it cannot deliver the FasTracks program as promised to voters four years ago.

The program, originally budgeted at $4.7 billion when voters approved a sales tax to support it, rose to $6.1 billion last year and is poised for a substantial increase next month during budget talks with the elected board.

The agency is holding off on a recommended strategy, but the options include some politically difficult choices in tough economic times:

* Stretch the program beyond the original 2017 completion date to ease a cash flow slowdown.

* Reduce the length of some of the corridors to cut costs but maintain the schedule.

* Go to voters for an additional tax increase to get the original plan done on the same schedule.

The program has been clobbered from two sides, with huge increases in the cost of construction materials and fuel, and a slowdown in the economy that has cut into the revenue RTD expected from the sales tax that underpins the financing.

"We're dealing with that reality, and I am going to have to adapt the program to fiscal reality," said Cal Marsella, RTD general manager. "Our material costs are up and our revenues are down from projections. Reality is reality, and we're going to have to adapt to that."

Rights of way, privatization

Marsella said the transit agency is still crunching the new numbers for the annual FasTracks budget update and has no new bottom line, but it will be determined before a mid-August meeting with the 15-member board.

"How much, we can't really say because some big things are still outstanding," Marsella said.

Two major elements of the program will remain unresolved for up to two years, and they have the potential to help keep the program costs down or damage its financial footing even more.

One is negotiations with two major railroads, Burlington Northern-Santa Fe and Union Pacific, over purchase or lease of portions of their rights of way for the four heavy-rail commuter lines in FasTracks.

Earlier this year, talks with Union Pacific failed to produce an agreement on a total package of property because the railroad's price, $700 million, was substantially more than RTD had set aside.

The two sides remain in talks for smaller portions of Union Pacific property.

The second unresolved element is the potential savings from RTD privatizing three or more of the new corridors.

RTD turned to so-called Public-Private Partnerships, PPP, last year as a strategy to close a $548 million deficit between what the original financing plan could handle and the new $6.1 billion budget.

If costs climb much higher, it is unknown if more savings could come from additional privatization.

Mayor critical of estimates

Aurora Mayor Ed Tauer is anxiously awaiting word on the fate of the I-225 light-rail corridor - an extension of the T-REX line from Parker Road to connect with the train to the airport at Fitzsimons on Peoria Street. Tauer said he keeps hearing that RTD's costs are rising faster than construction costs, indicating there's more to the problem than rising material prices. He cast doubt on RTD's original estimates.

"Our concerns are what are we going to get and when are we going to get it," Tauer said. "Our concern is not how they execute it. But when do we stop having these increases and have a final price?

"Some of our corridors are still three or four years away from starting and they've already had huge increases in costs before we've laid our first track. When do we stop this and get the final number?"

Marsella defended the original estimates.

"Why would we lowball it and not be able to deliver?"

No good options

Noel Busck, an RTD board member, was mayor of Thornton when FasTracks passed in 2004. He was part of the unanimous front of metro mayors who backed the measure, a 0.4-cent hike in the regional sales tax.

Now sitting on the other side of the table, he expects a hard series of talks with cities and counties over how to handle the future of the FasTracks program.

"To go back on our word and renegotiate things will be quite difficult," Busck said. "I am sure there will have to be some changes. We don't have an easy few years ahead of us, but we'll get it done. There's always a way."

Marsella won't rate the options for now but said all are difficult.

"Is lengthening the time an option? Yes, but no decision has been made," he said. "Would we consider going to voters for more money? Yes. Are we considering that right now? No. What about shortening the lines? Is that a possibility? Yeah, but is it one we want to pursue? No.

"I heard pretty loud and clear from the public that they wanted it done as quickly as possible."

FasTracks is one of the nation's largest public transit expansions, with seven new corridors and additions to three existing ones.

One of the new projects, the 12.1-mile West Corridor connecting Denver, Lakewood and Golden, is under early construction.

Inflation costs accelerate

Last month, its budget was bumped up 11.5 percent, to $707.6 million, a portent of what awaits the other projects in the program.

Those other corridors are in various stages of environmental studies and early design - a stage at which it's hard to nail down final costs.

The original FasTracks budget was assembled from thousands of pieces of data reflecting the scope of what RTD planned to build, with each piece assigned a price tag down to the last railroad tie, then inflated through the life of the project using a projection for the local Consumer Price Index and priced according to what year each piece was planned to be built.

But that quickly went awry because inflation in the construction industry didn't track the consumer price index. Even as voters marched to the polls to say yes in 2004, the Colorado Construction Cost Index was going up 9 percent that year. In 2005, it spiked an unprecedented 52 percent. It has continued to outpace inflation, hitting 6.1 percent last year.

The national Producer Price Index for construction material has gone up 30.7 percent since the end of 2003, while the Consumer Price Index has gone up 17.5 percent.

[email protected] or 303-954-5247

FasTracks timeline * Fall 2003: RTD assembles cost projections for the entire program at $4.7 billion.

* April 2004: Denver Regional Council of Governments approves the program after having consultants review the projections.

* November 2004: Metro Denver voters approve a 0.4-cent hike in RTD's sales tax to support the financing of FasTracks.

* May 2007: RTD's first overall re-evaluation of costs and financing boosts price tag to $6.1 billion, with a $548 million deficit in the financing plan that is to be plugged by turning to privatization on some corridors.

* September 2007: RTD hires consultant team to lead privatization effort, predicting the gap can be met.

* June 2008: RTD boosts West Corridor light rail project 11.5 percent, to $707.1 million, foreshadowing an overall increase in the program cost to come in August.

© Rocky Mountain News
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #185  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2008, 7:48 AM
Octavian Octavian is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,023
If I were in charge and wanted more money, I'd package fastracks as a bond measure to pay for improvements for an olympic bid. Of course, this is contingent on getting an olympic bid.

I know about construction costs yada yada, but they f**ked up.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #186  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2008, 1:58 PM
glowrock's Avatar
glowrock glowrock is offline
Becoming Chicago-fied!
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Chicago (West Avondale)
Posts: 19,443
How could RTD possible have figured annual construction inflation costs to be upwards of 10-12%? I don't see any way of them knowing that beforehand. Could they have forecast oil prices quadrupling since 2004? Could they have forecase copper and steel prices tripling during that time?

I'm not defending RTD, but damn, I'm not sure it's as simple as "they f**ked up", Octavian.

Aaron (Glowrock)
__________________
"Deeply corrupt but still semi-functional - it's the Chicago way." -- Barrelfish
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #187  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2008, 5:38 PM
FrancoRey's Avatar
FrancoRey FrancoRey is offline
Stay Thirsty.
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 2,831
Government funding, damnit! Saaave us!!! A billion will do...
__________________
Denver's getting infill like it's 1999...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #188  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2008, 1:09 AM
SnyderBock's Avatar
SnyderBock SnyderBock is offline
Robotic Construction
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,833
I say ask voters for more money and if they vote it down, then increase the timeline of the BRT to Boulder, the DMU extension from Boulder to Longmont and the North metro DMU - by a total of 5-years. Then build the East and Gold EMU lines (on schedule) with a PPP.
__________________
Automation Is Still the Future
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #189  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2008, 3:49 AM
wong21fr's Avatar
wong21fr wong21fr is offline
Reluctant Hobbesian
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Denver
Posts: 13,123
RTD is going to have to tread very carefully with this.

I can see a ballot measure popping up to repeal the FasTracks sales tax increase by certain "progressive" institutions.

We Coloradans do like to fist ourselves after all.
__________________
"You don't strike, you just go to work everyday and do your job real half-ass. That's the American way!" -Homer Simpson

All of us who are concerned for peace and triumph of reason and justice must be keenly aware how small an influence reason and honest good will exert upon events in the political field. ~Albert Einstein

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #190  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2008, 3:58 AM
Denver Bear's Avatar
Denver Bear Denver Bear is offline
Kiss Wolf Wolf Goodnight
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: STUDIO AUDIENCE
Posts: 849
RTD took a gamble and it back fired. They simply bit off more than they can chew. Portlands rail experience is greater than ours, hands down. I never understood why RTD did many of the things they did. Like trains that aren't street level and those horrible platforms. no room for bikes yet try in other areas to increase bike ridership. No card payments, Fair zones, no clocks, 27th and 29th stops, and NO friggin shelters at a lot of stops. Not to mention NOT putting rail where ridership would be the highest.

I was talking to one of the higher ups working on the west line. He said they are scheduled to be done on time, and their company (Seattle based) is already wanting to bid on the commuter rail to Loveland because contracts should start coming online as soon as the West line is finishing up. Did I miss something? Is this really set in stone, or is he going of rumors?
__________________
"I don't know if that ugly wall of suburbia has been put there to stop them getting in, or us getting out"

help me out and improve my city
http://commerce-city.myminicity.com
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #191  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2008, 4:19 AM
bcp's Avatar
bcp bcp is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 5,143
you are totally right that they mostly have taken the "path of least resistance" with station / line locations....just look at central denver where the greatest density is...the welton line is a failure i'd say - but that doenst mean it cant be fixed.

just curious...what don't you like about the zone-based fare system?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #192  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2008, 5:24 AM
wong21fr's Avatar
wong21fr wong21fr is offline
Reluctant Hobbesian
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Denver
Posts: 13,123
^Of course we know what FasTracks is designed for; to bring suburban commuters downtown. It is most certainly not a intercity rail system. The system was designed with more than just "need" in mind. Politics dictated a lot as well and the areas with the greatest ridership aren't the most politically influential.

Perhaps if Denver decides they want to finance their own lines we'll get an intercity system, but RTD certainly won't be capable of doing so for a number of years. Of course, it would be nice it certain neighborhoods, where ridership would have been quite high (Broadway) hadn't started bitching at the thought of a rail line going down the road.
__________________
"You don't strike, you just go to work everyday and do your job real half-ass. That's the American way!" -Homer Simpson

All of us who are concerned for peace and triumph of reason and justice must be keenly aware how small an influence reason and honest good will exert upon events in the political field. ~Albert Einstein

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #193  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2008, 1:55 PM
SnyderBock's Avatar
SnyderBock SnyderBock is offline
Robotic Construction
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,833
Here's some good infor, click the link for the full article:
Quote:
Inflation Forcing RTD's West Line to Go Bare Bones

Kevin Flynn
Rocky Mountain News


CATEGORY / ORIGINAL BUDGET / 2008 BUDGET / INCREASE

Guideway $88 million $153 million 74%

Stations $60.3 million $57.4 million -4.8%

Sitework $56.7 million $115.3 million 103.4%

Systems $53.9 million $78.6 million 45.8%

All construction $262.8 million $406.3 million 54.6%

Real estate $39.6 million $50.3 million 27%

Light rail trains $125.6 million $76.9 million -38.8%
__________________
Automation Is Still the Future
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #194  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2008, 2:01 PM
glowrock's Avatar
glowrock glowrock is offline
Becoming Chicago-fied!
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Chicago (West Avondale)
Posts: 19,443
Okay, I have no problems with the fare zones. I also don't really have an issue with the platforms. I do have a problem with the fact that the ticket machines don't take plastic. No reason at all why they can't take credit cards, no reason whatsoever.

Aaron (Glowrock)
__________________
"Deeply corrupt but still semi-functional - it's the Chicago way." -- Barrelfish
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #195  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2008, 6:04 PM
SnyderBock's Avatar
SnyderBock SnyderBock is offline
Robotic Construction
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,833
One reason I could think of would be the inability if a machine to verify the card user as the correct person. The machines would have to also scan your drivers license to confirm the name matches the credit card, then scan either your finger tip or your retina (or a DNA scan chip even), to confirm that you are in fact the correct person to be using that card. The other option would be to tire a person to collect, process payments and hand out tickets.
__________________
Automation Is Still the Future
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #196  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2008, 6:46 PM
Fritzdude Fritzdude is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,013
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnyderBock View Post
One reason I could think of would be the inability if a machine to verify the card user as the correct person. The machines would have to also scan your drivers license to confirm the name matches the credit card, then scan either your finger tip or your retina (or a DNA scan chip even), to confirm that you are in fact the correct person to be using that card. The other option would be to tire a person to collect, process payments and hand out tickets.
I doubt this is the reason - considering that gas stations and self-check out supermarket stands will allow people to use credit cards and their dollar values are much higher. I agree with the criticism - FastTracks needs to allow for credit/debit cards. It's annoying to pay with cash!

Also - I wish they made it more convenient to bring on bikes. How cool would it be for a section of the car be designated for bikes, with racks where you could park your bike and allow you to sit down. The fact that you can only stand with your bike at the end of the car is both a hazard and an inconvenience.

I'm also surprised that no one has thought about putting LCD Displays on the train to run commercials, info, etc.. It's a captive audience; people are forced to pay attention to the bube tube.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #197  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2008, 6:54 PM
EngiNerd's Avatar
EngiNerd EngiNerd is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Englewood, CO
Posts: 2,003
I was sitting on the light rail the other day wondering why they haven't utilized the advertising boards inside the cars more. The ones that are at an angle near the ceiling. Can they really not find companies to advertise there, because it seems like a good source of extra income. Most lrt/metro systems I have been on have them full of advertisements.
__________________
"The engineer is the key figure in the material progress of the world. It is his engineering that makes a reality of the potential value of science by translating scientific knowledge into tools, resources, energy and labor to bring them into the service of man. To make contributions of this kind the engineer requires the imagination to visualize the need of society and to appreciate what is possible as well as the technological and broad social age understanding to bring his vision to reality."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #198  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2008, 8:33 PM
glowrock's Avatar
glowrock glowrock is offline
Becoming Chicago-fied!
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Chicago (West Avondale)
Posts: 19,443
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnyderBock View Post
One reason I could think of would be the inability if a machine to verify the card user as the correct person. The machines would have to also scan your drivers license to confirm the name matches the credit card, then scan either your finger tip or your retina (or a DNA scan chip even), to confirm that you are in fact the correct person to be using that card. The other option would be to tire a person to collect, process payments and hand out tickets.
Nope, sorry. If you can use a credit card at a freaking gas station (or at a Chicago Transit station!), then RTD should have the same ticket machines available here.

Aaron (Glowrock)
__________________
"Deeply corrupt but still semi-functional - it's the Chicago way." -- Barrelfish
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #199  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2008, 12:20 AM
enjo13 enjo13 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Riverfront Park (Denver)
Posts: 1,833
RE: Credit Cards

Verification is quite likely the reason. Credit companies consider possession of the card as all the verification they need, but they also place the risk of fraud on the merchant (in this case RTD). So chargebacks (generally a $25 fee charged to RTD) are definitely a bit scary for a risk adverse organization. That's really the problem, however. RTD is incredibly risk adverse.. and it shows throughout their thinking.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fritzdude View Post
Also - I wish they made it more convenient to bring on bikes. How cool would it be for a section of the car be designated for bikes, with racks where you could park your bike and allow you to sit down. The fact that you can only stand with your bike at the end of the car is both a hazard and an inconvenience.
This is what Portland does really well. Each train (they're wider than ours I think) has a racks that you can hang a bike on. It looked like they had ~10 racks per train. Folks come on, hook their front tire on it and just hang it. They can then site pretty much anywhere on the train... It was really handy for the bikers from what I can tell.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #200  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2008, 12:39 AM
ski82 ski82 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by enjo13 View Post
RE: Credit Cards

Verification is quite likely the reason. Credit companies consider possession of the card as all the verification they need, but they also place the risk of fraud on the merchant (in this case RTD). So chargebacks (generally a $25 fee charged to RTD) are definitely a bit scary for a risk adverse organization. That's really the problem, however. RTD is incredibly risk adverse.. and it shows throughout their thinking.

This is failing to consider the people who are planning to buy tickets, but don't becuase they can't use a card. I bet there are quite a few of those people.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Mountain West
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 6:34 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.