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  #1121  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2008, 11:06 AM
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Lister hairball ready to be coughed up?

June 20, 2008
Andrew Dreschel
The Hamilton Spectator

You know it, I know it, Mayor Fred Eisenberger knows it: Lister Block fatigue is everywhere.

The endlessly unresolved fate of the vacant and dilapidated historic building in the downtown core is sticking in everyone's craw.

But the hairball may finally be dislodged Monday.

That's D-Day, the day council has to decide whether to buy the building from LIUNA for about $25 million or see the offsetting $7-million grant from the province slide off the table.

If they vote yea, municipal taxpayers will be on the hook for roughly $18 million.

In return, Hamilton will get a fully restored 1924 architectural gem for housing city staff, the promise of a second-phase seniors' residence project and a symbolic and widely expected concrete catalyst for downtown redevelopment.

If council votes nay, the city will lose the $7 million from the province, the Lister will stay in limbo, the eyesore in the core will remain, the debate will go on ad infinitum -- and local taxpayers will get to keep $18 million.

A city staff report on negotiations with LIUNA and its partner, Hi-Rise, will be out by today with an expected recommendation to purchase.

But it's hard to say which way the actual council vote will go.

Eisenberger, who strongly believes buying will be good for the city's psyche and economy, is furiously lobbying councillors for support.

He thinks he has the votes to win.

"At this point, I sense and believe there's going to be majority support," he says. "But will we know for sure until we get there? Never."

The deciding factor for some councillors may be the promised second phase, which would elevate the purchase into a future investment in terms of tax assessment and commercial activity in the core.

But they want more than a promise. They've asked LIUNA VP Joe Mancinelli for a financial guarantee the second phase will go ahead.

Mancinelli says he's offered $250,000, but he admits city negotiators were pressing for more.

"They don't think the $250,000 is enough; we think it's too much," says Mancinelli.

Whatever the final number is, Mancinelli vows Phase Two will happen.

"It's not a matter of if; we're going forward for sure," he says.

What may change, however, is the scale of the second phase.

Originally, Kingsway Arms Retirement Residences talked about owning and operating two residential towers next to the renovated Lister, one a rental retirement home for seniors, the other a condominium marketed to seniors.

Mancinelli now says it may be one tower instead of two because of market conditions.

"But the only concern is how big the project will be, not if the project will go forward."

Still, any potential changes could make swing council votes nervous.

The recently released Ontario Heritage Trust report could also influence the dynamic of the debate.

The report, solicited by the provincial government, triggered the intervention that saved the Lister from demolition in 2006 and set the stage for the $7-million provincial grant.

Much of its contents were previously known or implicitly understood.

The full document, however, explicitly says, if Hamilton doesn't protect Lister, the province should designate it a heritage property and seek federal funding.

Councillor Brad Clark says the report clearly proves the province should be taking the lead in preserving Lister, not local taxpayers.

"The $7 million from the province is just a drop in the bucket," says Clark. "I'm saying the municipal taxpayer shouldn't be on the hook for the rest of it."

It remains to be seen which vision will win out. But Mayor Fred and his camp have no time to spare.

Unless the city inks a purchasing deal with LIUNA by June 30, the McGuinty government's $7 million goes bye-bye.
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  #1122  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2008, 2:16 PM
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Don't buy it.

Look at the 'phase 2' promise, already two towers is now only one tower, what's next? half a tower, then maybe a two floor homeless shelter. They're full of crap.

It's protected from demo, we don't need to buy it. Let LIUNA put it up for sale as is, then maybe buy it and issue and RFP for renovations. They don't deserve a windfall for letting it rot and waiting for a government subsidy before they do anything with it.
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  #1123  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2008, 5:08 AM
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Showdown over Lister

BY NICOLE MACINTYRE

LIUNA is prepared to walk away from the deal to save the Lister Block if the city doesn’t change its conditions.

The city wants a $1-million guarantee that the project will have a second phase by 2017 with 100 retirement home units and 100 condos for seniors — a plan LIUNA pitched to council last winter.

But LIUNA vice-president Joe Mancinelli said the conditions are too restrictive in the face of an unsettled economy.

“We’re prepared to walk away,” he said, noting the union would be crazy to agree to the proposed guarantee. “It’s a penalty.”

Council will decide Monday if the city should buy the Lister Block for $25 million with the help of a $7-million grant from the province. That’s an $18 million net cost to Hamilton.

The city and LIUNA plan to continue negotiations to see if they can come up with a new deal by the critical vote, which many councillors say is too close to call.

Mayor Fred Eisenberger is hopeful the two sides can find a compromise.

“It’s too early to tell,” he said.

“There will still be some back and forth here.”

Mancinelli said he would prefer a lower financial guarantee, in the range of $250,000, but said his bigger concern is the strict language about the size of the second phase.

What happens, he asks, if LIUNA constructs a building with only 99 condos because demand changes in five years?

But finance chief Joe Rinaldo said he followed the direction of council in drafting the agreement. Last February, several councillors said they would only support the city buying the Lister Block if they could be assured LIUNA would deliver on a promise to build a seniors’ home behind the downtown landmark.

“The guarantee in our minds has to be meaningful,” said Rinaldo.

He’s optimistic the city will be able to work out a deal by Monday morning.

But downtown Councillor Bob Bratina said he’s leaning toward opposing the deal even with the proposed guarantee.

“This isn’t nearly restrictive enough,” he said. “I don’t think this is good value for taxpayers.”

But Mancinelli said private investors would jump at the Lister deal, even without the guarantee, if they had the same provincial grant as the city.

“They are risking nothing and gaining everything,” he said.

The city must make a decision on the Lister by June 30 or it will lose the provincial grant.
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  #1124  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2008, 6:12 AM
drpgq drpgq is offline
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So if Bratina votes no, is the deal dead? I can't believe that the exurban councillors will vote yes.
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  #1125  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2008, 10:50 AM
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walk away...no RUN!!!!!!!!!! don't give those criminals a penny.
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  #1126  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2008, 3:07 PM
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Buy it for $25 million!! Are they kidding? That property is not worth anywhere close to that. It's not even worth $7 million. Get that heritage designation so it can't be torn down and walk away from that crazy deal. Then enforce the property standards to the letter.
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  #1127  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2008, 4:21 PM
FairHamilton FairHamilton is offline
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Originally Posted by flar View Post
Buy it for $25 million!! Are they kidding? That property is not worth anywhere close to that. It's not even worth $7 million. Get that heritage designation so it can't be torn down and walk away from that crazy deal. Then enforce the property standards to the letter.
And my guess is another $12M (maybe $13.5M) for reno's........
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  #1128  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2008, 4:26 PM
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LIUNA is such a joke. THEY are the ones who came up with the second phase idea for seniors condos, now they say it's 'too restrictive'.
these pricks will change their minds over and over whenever a plan is reached to save the building.
They want demolition and that's it.
The city should walk away and begin working on a bylaw that will result in a fine of around $10 million if the Lister is 'torn down'.
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  #1129  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2008, 5:47 PM
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The city should run as fast as they can ---

This is NOT a good deal and if i were the mayor and council I would enter in negotiations with the province to protect the building with a designation and force LIUNA to sell the building as we know they want nothing to do with Heritage and should be happy to move on and let someone else do the right thing with the building...

We need to demand that whoever is involved in the Lister Block that the downtown core needs people living in what could be the most prestigious and exciting address in the city!

LIVE HISTORIC

This is the kind of developers we need in Hamilton: http://www.livehistoric.com/
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  #1130  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2008, 5:48 PM
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^ I agree.

What's LIUNA so afraid of? The City is only asking for a guarantee that LIUNA will build what they said they would..... Why did they say they'd build the tower if they had no intention?

Good on the City for calling their bluff. The City is giving them 9 fricken years to build it.
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Last edited by realcity; Jun 22, 2008 at 2:24 PM.
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  #1131  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2008, 6:30 PM
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From the roof of my place you can get a nice view of the tops of the adjoining buildings to the Lister. There's a perpetual flood of water on the top of the garage-type building facing Rebecca with the makeshift parking lot in front of it. So much potential here.
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  #1132  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2008, 7:32 PM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
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Originally Posted by FairHamilton View Post
And my guess is another $12M (maybe $13.5M) for reno's........
The $25 million price tag is for LIUNA selling the city a renovated Lister.
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  #1133  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2008, 2:45 AM
FairHamilton FairHamilton is offline
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The $25 million price tag is for LIUNA selling the city a renovated Lister.
I don't think so.

At one time the cost for a renovated Lister was $44M (http://thespec.com/article/305878) and another number, $34M was thrown around regarding operating costs & leasehold improvements (http://thespec.com/article/331159).

$25M is just the entry fee.
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  #1134  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2008, 2:51 AM
FairHamilton FairHamilton is offline
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Originally Posted by SteelTown View Post
What happens, he asks, if LIUNA constructs a building with only 99 condos because demand changes in five years?
First off, then they should build 1 condo extra because the cost of building one extra would be less then the cost (forfeit of $1M guarantee) of building only 99 condos.

Secondly, do they think the number of seniors will decrease in the next 5 years?? Or, have they 'suggested' this only to get the deal done without having completed a proper business plan or market research on the 'suggested' project?
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Last edited by FairHamilton; Jun 22, 2008 at 3:54 AM.
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  #1135  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2008, 2:58 AM
Gurnett71 Gurnett71 is offline
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LIUNA holding the city ransom. $25 mil to start the project and then untold millions in cost overruns...maybe the city can just buy/renovate the Lister for a new city hall so we don't have two large scale, municipally funded black holes!
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  #1136  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2008, 8:34 AM
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Irony strikes again.

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  #1137  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2008, 12:13 PM
raisethehammer raisethehammer is offline
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haha....classic!
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  #1138  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2008, 12:39 PM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
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I don't think so.

At one time the cost for a renovated Lister was $44M (http://thespec.com/article/305878) and another number, $34M was thrown around regarding operating costs & leasehold improvements (http://thespec.com/article/331159).

$25M is just the entry fee.
Many numbers have been bandied about in thepast. However, the $25 million agreement of purchase and sale put forward to council tomorrow includes rehabilitation of the Lister.

The agreement being presented tomorrow is available online and can be found here. It is very detailed and specific on how the rehabilitation process is to be followed.
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  #1139  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2008, 1:12 PM
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According to the timeline in the agreement, the sale would be completed by the end of the month, various plans and things would be worked out over the fall and winter with construction to begin exactly a year from now in June of 2009.

Apparently alternatives were also looked into including restoring only the main floor arcade and demolishing the rest of the building (wtf?). City Housing was also considered but the funding was not available (wouldn't have been a good idea in my eyes anyway).

Nothing here is really making me all that positive on the situation. I really don't want to see this block turn into a boring senior's paradise. Every senior I have talked to about the Lister hates it and wishes it were torn down and turned into a park. Why the hell would they want to live beside it, restored or not?
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  #1140  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2008, 3:24 PM
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In addition to rebuilding the Lister to city specifications for occupancy in March 2012, LIUNA would also commit to opening 200 residential retirement units by 2017 that staff believe will add at least $1 million a year to city tax coffers. If those additional buildings aren’t put in place, the city would impose a one-time $1 million penalty on LIUNA.
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