Development Rumours

[Jonovision]

I didn't know exactly where to put this, so I though it would get the most attention here. I had no idea there had been that little of an investment in downtown. I hate how council doesn't really seem to give a dam.

Downtown businesses want more from city

By AMY PUGSLEY FRASER City Hall Reporter
Fri. Jun 13 - 6:23 AM

City hall’s neglect of downtown Halifax is slowly shifting the city’s economic engine into neutral, a gathering of downtown business leaders heard Thursday.

"The downtown has languished too long in obscurity in the halls of power," Paul MacKinnon, executive director of the Downtown Halifax Business Commission, said in a noontime address to members.

In the past four years, Halifax Regional Municipality has spent less than $1 million on capital investment in the downtown, an area that has brought about $240 million in taxes to city coffers during that period, he said.

With such little investment, the downtown is stagnating, Mr. MacKinnon told about 60 people who turned out at the Carleton on Argyle Street for the commission’s annual general meeting.

Less than one per cent of the taxes the downtown generates is being returned for capital projects, leaving Mr. MacKinnon to wonder what’s driving city hall’s financial choices.

"Is this a lack of political will? Is it wilful neglect? Is it a strategic budgeting decision?"

The downtown should be revitalized with a central library, performing arts centre, aquarium, improved transit centre, new convention centre and Metro Centre, Mr. MacKinnon said.

City hall has endorsed plans to upgrade downtown facilities but so far they’ve just been "wish lists," he said.

"Virtually all these initiatives have been stuck for the past decade," he said.

Mr. MacKinnon pointed to a date this fall — Oct. 18, when municipal elections will be held — as significant.

"A new day is dawning," he said.

Those words were echoed by the chairwoman of the business commission, Suzanne Saul.

"Historically, the majority of council has been disinterested and disengaged from the downtown," said the co-owner of Attica Furnishings Ltd. on Barrington Street.

She and Mr. MacKinnon want people to make downtown investment the key election issue.

Coun. Mary Wile (Clayton Park West), one of two councillors who attended the meeting, said she’d like the city to invest more in the downtown.

"I can remember years ago that it was the best area that you could ever want to come to," she said.

"So I think I’ll do more to try and push this a little better, and get more money for it. It’s got to be done," she said. "It’s our core, the heart of Halifax."

Coun. Sue Uteck (Northwest Arm-South End) said everyone has to play a part in making the downtown a better place.

"One of the relevant things that he (Mr. MacKinnon) said is that it’s not only the financial shift (in attitude that’s needed), but it’s the cultural shift. And that needs to happen from HRM council and the business community."

As council’s representative on the commission’s board, Ms. Uteck said she has tried to make council aware of the issues.

"But I think it’s also up to the business commission to come to us at council to do an annual state of the downtown business address," she said.

"They have to step up and challenge us. You know the political game: As long as you’re not being challenged, complacency is in order."

( [email protected])

[someone123]

Yep. There have been some minor resurfacing projects, etc. but the fact is that council treats the downtown like any other area. Hollis Street might as well be some stretch of Sackville Drive, despite the fact that it has property assessments in the hundreds of millions of dollars in addition to dramatically higher tax rates.

The only silver lining I see here is that the downtown area still manages to be fairly successful overall despite worst-case-scenario treatment from City Hall. In many smaller cities the opposite is true, and downtowns are very uninteresting despite tens or hundreds of millions in public investment.

[Keith P.]

The Hardman Group began a pitch for their new WTCC proposal today using the Cogswell Interchange site. There's not much to it, but there is a document on their website:

http://www.hardmangroup.ca/development/images/CogswellWTCC.pdf

Very little specific info to be found at this stage, and no mention of how to deal with the street network.

I'm also not sure if they are big enough to actually pull this off.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The Hardman Group began a pitch for their new WTCC proposal today using the Cogswell Interchange site. There's not much to it, but there is a document on their website:

http://www.hardmangroup.ca/development/images/CogswellWTCC.pdf

Very little specific info to be found at this stage, and no mention of how to deal with the street network.

I'm also not sure if they are big enough to actually pull this off.

They are certainly big enough. One proposal is calling for 600 room hotel.....

The hardman one sounds interesting, however if this happens there is little options (less then a handful) downtown to build anything over 5-6 stories once HRM by design is approved.

[someone123]

Well the fact is that there is just not that much land downtown, period. If the downtown core grows significantly, which it has not in recent years, I think the best bet is to start looking at a secondary area to develop. I would suggest Young/Robie.

If we get a couple of major office buildings and a large hotel that will satisfy demand for downtown space for some time.

[reddog794]

Younge and Robie wouldn't be an efficient place to have a downtown, for Halifax, because you only allow for one style of transport there, and that's via roads. With the DT being where it has always been, it makes use of the most natural and primary of travel, the harbour, as well as roads. Also any argument about space is moot, with the advent of skyscrapers, or highrises. People talk about infilling instead of cogwell interchange removal, but the land people want is in the CwI lands, and north.

Why not keep everything south of Morris lowrise, while gradually allowing higher structures until Duke, then let the gates open for height height and more height! It would give a cool view entering the harbour, while respecting the sacred cows.

[sdm]

One of the proposals is for the Law Court site, with a convention centre, 750 room hotel, and 750,000 square feet of Office space. Question? whats the size of that site where you can yield that much space, especially considering the law courts are built on piles

[JET]

Sort of off topic, (or off thread, I wasn't sure how to connect two different threads)o n page 5 of this thread, 11/18/07 the 2nd phto of haliguys post has a nice shot of the old house on South/Wellington that was demolished. Too bad, it was a nice old building, and appeared to be well maintained. Some posters had been wondering which was the building that was demolished accross from the new south st apt building. JET

[Jonovision]

I would assume if they redeveloped the law courts it would encompass the ferry terminal and would be able to expand out into the water. Could be really cool. I'm not really feeling this whole cogswell convention centre idea.

[someone123]

The waterfront plan sounds better to me as well.

Interesting how several proposals include a plan for a new Hilton hotel. They have a Garden Inn by the airport but it looks like they're also interested in something larger downtown.

[terrynorthend]

Just a question. 600 room hotel, 750 room hotel.. Is it just me or do these seem quite large? I once worked at Delta Barrington (4 floors of rooms but a large floorplate) and it had just under 200 rooms. What is the room count of the largest hotel downtown currently?

[terrynorthend]

Well a quick bit of my own research turned this up..

Marriott Harbourfront -331
Westin Nova Scotian -277
Holiday Inn City Centre -272
Delta Halifax (old Chateau Halifax) - 266

600-750 rooms would be more than twice the size of any of the largest hotels currently downtown.. not to mention the 15.000+ square metres of convention space..

WOW!

[someone123]

It would be about double the size of the larger hotels currently operating but is not really that large for a city like Halifax.

The other important thing to consider is that larger hotels have a lot more amenities and contribute to tourism, conferences, etc. I don't think it's true that a 600 room hotel would fully generate visitors to fill itself but it would be better than 4-6 more 100-200 room hotels of the kind that keep popping up around the city.

I really hope we see some of these plans come together and translate into a major hotel and 1-2 major office buildings, along with some decent-sized condo development (i.e. United Gulf). The downtown needs a significant amount of new investment and that's the scale we should be looking at, even if it means that new demand is absorbed for 5-10 years.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by someone123

It would be about double the size of the larger hotels currently operating but is not really that large for a city like Halifax.

The other important thing to consider is that larger hotels have a lot more amenities and contribute to tourism, conferences, etc. I don't think it's true that a 600 room hotel would fully generate visitors to fill itself but it would be better than 4-6 more 100-200 room hotels of the kind that keep popping up around the city.

I really hope we see some of these plans come together and translate into a major hotel and 1-2 major office buildings, along with some decent-sized condo development (i.e. United Gulf). The downtown needs a significant amount of new investment and that's the scale we should be looking at, even if it means that new demand is absorbed for 5-10 years.

a 600 room hotel would fall flat on its face in todays market place. To be profitable they would need to maintain a consistant 75-80% occupancy or would be seeing red. That maybe doable, however the others would then suffer. Its similar to office buildings where introduction of too much space to the market will actually hurt the market rents and returns.

I for one think they should just take over the metro centre and give us a new stadium once and for all.

[Dmajackson]

Originally Posted by JET

Sort of off topic, (or off thread, I wasn't sure how to connect two different threads)o n page 5 of this thread, 11/18/07 the 2nd phto of haliguys post has a nice shot of the old house on South/Wellington that was demolished. Too bad, it was a nice old building, and appeared to be well maintained. Some posters had been wondering which was the building that was demolished accross from the new south st apt building. JET

Sorry to thread jack but to finish this off two buildings were demolished and one is being rebuilt as a single-family house i believe. The last time i was down there nothing was being done to the other building.

BTW that comment would of worked on the 5800 South thread....

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by sdm

a 600 room hotel would fall flat on its face in todays market place. To be profitable they would need to maintain a consistant 75-80% occupancy or would be seeing red. That maybe doable, however the others would then suffer. Its similar to office buildings where introduction of too much space to the market will actually hurt the market rents and returns.

I for one think they should just take over the metro centre and give us a new stadium once and for all.

I know nothing about the economics of the hotel business but I can tell you that a hotel of that size has been identified as a need for the city just like a larger convention center has been. The problem now when you try to attract the type of large conventions that the new WTCC would accommodate is that there is no single hotel big enough that can act as convention host. If you are doing conventions of 2000 people then a 600 room hotel is not unrealistic. The other advantage of large hotels is that they can utilize or provide the large kitchens, meeting facilities, laundry, etc that the convention center would need.

Halifax has a lot of small to midsize 2 and 3 star hotels but no large ones and also no 4 star facilities; this could serve that role.

[someone123]

I am also no industry expert but I suspect that such a hotel would be sufficiently distinct to attract a good share of the overall business. The fact that these Hilton proposals are coming forward suggests that somebody in the industry thinks at least that they can operate profitably.

Maybe this would kill off other hotels but that's the way free markets operate. A hotel chain is not responsible for making sure that they don't steal away business from their competitors. Is it really even a bad thing if we lose one of the 70s hotels downtown and gain a modern one that is twice as large?

In my opinion this kind of anti-competitive thinking has a lot to do with why growth in the province is often lacklustre. Nobody is willing to take risk or rock the boat and that's the only way the economy can make real headway. Otherwise, we just inherit the table scraps from other jurisdictions that innovate or push the boundaries of the free market and get it right.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Exactly what I was thinking. Although, this type of hotel would obviously have a differently clientele, which might be hard to fill the place.

[Jonovision]

I have it from a reliable source that the Triangle lands office tower is coming soon.

[Wishblade]

Originally Posted by Jonovision

I have it from a reliable source that the Triangle lands office tower is coming soon.

I know this was discussed in the past, but is this an as of right development?