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  #221  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2008, 5:43 PM
Andrea Andrea is offline
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  #222  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2008, 5:46 PM
BabydaddyATL BabydaddyATL is offline
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Originally Posted by Fiorenza View Post
BD, corporations need regulation. But, when government regulation gets into salary controls and windfall profits taxes, then you can be sure that the corporations have countermeasures. Other countries are in competition with the US and would love the investment, and anyway the US dollar-based methods of persuasion aren't what they used to be - in or out of the US. If put under excessive regulation, just watch what these companies do....not what they say they're doing or not doing.
Fine, if they can't take the heat then get out of the kitchen. My solution to that would be if you choose to take your corporation offshore, then all of your executives and immediate family lose their US citizenship and are thereby declared enemy combatants and are not longer allowed back in the US. How many companies do you think would move offshore if we had that kind of legislation? I want a direct response and do not answer my question with another question, please.

Now onto windfall profits tax. Fiorenza, have you ever been in an area where a hurricane has hit? The government declares the area a state of emergency and can put cost controls on necessities so businesses will not take advantage of people. This is the same thing windfall profits tax is attempting to do by not letting companies take advantage of the citizens on a good that is necessity - OIL.
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  #223  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2008, 5:50 PM
BabydaddyATL BabydaddyATL is offline
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That's just one of the reasons the Founding Fathers were so strongly opposed to large corporations. It's rather telling that you never hear the Original Intent crowd mention that. They're only in favor of strict construction of the part they like.
Like I said before Andrea, the hardcore Republicans don't give a damn about Democracy or the Constitution - IT IS ALL ABOUT CAPITALISM/MONEY!!!
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  #224  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2008, 7:37 PM
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Fiorenza Fiorenza is offline
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I just peed a little
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  #225  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2008, 8:54 PM
BabydaddyATL BabydaddyATL is offline
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I just peed a little
You're going to be pooping too, if you don not answer my question because I am going beat the sh!t out of you!!!
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  #226  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2008, 9:23 PM
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In general the US doesn't have too much leverage or will anymore to enforce anything...especially when the competitive interests of foreign states are involved. That's the best I can do to answer your question. Individuals and companies will go where they can seek the most advantage. That's globalism.
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  #227  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2008, 9:39 PM
BabydaddyATL BabydaddyATL is offline
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Originally Posted by Fiorenza View Post
In general the US doesn't have too much leverage or will anymore to enforce anything...especially when the competitive interests of foreign states are involved. That's the best I can do to answer your question. Individuals and companies will go where they can seek the most advantage. That's globalism.
Fiorenza, if someone was faced with the thought of of losing their US citizenship if they moved their company's headquarters offshore, I would venture to say maybe .05% would still move. This .05% we probably didn't want here anyway.
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  #228  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2008, 9:53 PM
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No country in the world would ever put such restrictions on it's citizens. Plus, there would be too many ways to subvert such a law. It couldn't be enforced.
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  #229  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2008, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Fiorenza View Post
In general the US doesn't have too much leverage or will anymore to enforce anything...especially when the competitive interests of foreign states are involved. That's the best I can do to answer your question. Individuals and companies will go where they can seek the most advantage. That's globalism.
While the sentiment articulated by Fiorenza is the dominant U.S. thought and proposition, it is not in actual practice true... if implemented properly. The E.U. has a strict and consumer-focused anti-trust policy, and they have stopped two Fortune 500 U.S. firms from merging on two occasions by maintaining that the combination would violate E.U. laws and thus disqualify the new firm from operating or selling in the E.U.

The E.U. is a highly regulated market where businesses are mandated to include social benefit and cost in cost-benefit analysis and required to have stake-holder representation on the Boards of large corporations. Yet, the E.U. is still home to some of the most advanced and largest firms in the world. They are a market of more than 500 million people with a GDP larger than the United States. The E.U. has leveraged these facts in a manner where corporations and business make profits while protecting citizens and consumers without driving off their companies.

Here's an article from todays Washington Post which delineates the extreme power E.U. regulation can have on U.S. firms and positively alter their course of direction and practice. So... we are now reduced in the U.S. to relying upon the Europeans to ensure our safety because faulty ideology blinds us to other options to improve quality of life, business, and overall society.
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Chemical Law Has Global Impact
E.U.'s New Rules Forcing Changes By U.S. Firms

Washington Post-Thursday, June 12, 2008; A01

Europe this month rolled out new restrictions on makers of chemicals linked to cancer and other health problems, changes that are forcing U.S. industries to find new ways to produce a wide range of everyday products.

The new laws in the European Union require companies to demonstrate that a chemical is safe before it enters commerce -- the opposite of policies in the United States, where regulators must prove that a chemical is harmful before it can be restricted or removed from the market. Manufacturers say that complying with the European laws will add billions to their costs, possibly driving up prices of some products.

The changes come at a time when consumers are increasingly worried about the long-term consequences of chemical exposure and are agitating for more aggressive regulation. Adamantly opposed by the U.S. chemical industry and the Bush administration, American manufacturers are already searching for safer alternatives to chemicals used to make thousands of consumer goods, from bike helmets to shower curtains.

The European Union's tough stance on chemical regulation is the latest area in which the Europeans are reshaping business practices with demands that American companies either comply or lose access to a market of 27 countries and nearly 500 million people.

From its crackdown on antitrust practices in the computer industry to its rigorous protection of consumer privacy, the European Union has adopted a regulatory philosophy that emphasizes the consumer.

"There's a strong sense in Europe and the world at large that America is letting the market have a free ride," said Sheila Jasanoff, professor of science and technology studies at Harvard University's John F. Kennedy School of Government. "The Europeans believe . . . that being a good global citizen in an era of sustainability means you don't just charge ahead and destroy the planet without concern for what you're doing."

Under the E.U. laws, manufacturers must study and report the risks posed by specific chemicals. Through the Internet, the data will be available for the first time to consumers, regulators and potential litigants around the world. Until now, much of that information either did not exist or was closely held by companies. In the United States, laws in place for three decades have made banning or restricting chemicals extremely difficult. Instead, companies were asked to report toxicity information to the government, which would decide if additional tests were needed.

The E.U. standards will force many manufacturers to reformulate their products for sale there as well as in the United States. "We're not looking at this as a European program -- we're buying and selling all over the globe," said Linda Fisher, vice president and chief sustainability officer for DuPont and a former EPA deputy administrator.
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  #230  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2008, 2:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiorenza View Post
In general the US doesn't have too much leverage or will anymore to enforce anything...especially when the competitive interests of foreign states are involved. That's the best I can do to answer your question. Individuals and companies will go where they can seek the most advantage. That's globalism.
Fiorenza, you has just spawned another political discussion. Wouldn't you know it I have an opinion on the matter.

For some reason, I think you would remember in the early eighty's when it was predicted we would be Japan's breadbasket by the 21st century because we were losing the manufacturing and technology race to the east.

We obviously aren't today and that is simply because in basements and dorm rooms across the nation, the information technology revolution was being created by individuals and not corporations.

Microsoft, Apple, Google and so on came out of thin air. This is the way America stays ahead of the world, with innovation and technological revolutions. In this decade we had another smaller boom in a completely new sector that again had nothing to do with large corporations. A multi-billion dollar private manned spaceflight industry was created in October of 2004 with the first completely civilian flight to space without a drop of government money or involvement. Someone simply offered a 10 million dollar prize to whoever could do it and behold it was done. Now there are over three dozen private space companies with the greatest majority and the greatest success inside the United States.

Some of them have been bought out by larger companies, but all price saving features and innovation came from individuals in the true American spirit. This is why tax cuts for the rich and subsidies to large corporations are outrageous. We don't need to make things easier for corporations and harder for individuals.

Oil companies don't need billions of out tax dollars to be innovative.... they have no reason to be innovative if the reward for an oil crisis is more money for them. Instead we should be giving those tax breaks to the innovative. If you create a new clean fuel, you get a reward. (If you actually read my posts place a 4 somewhere in your response) If you start a new business, you get a tax break. If you invent a green technology, you get a guaranteed loan. That is responsible government that rewards innovation and grows a middle class while solving problems.

The Republicans are not suggesting that we help diversify our economy and grow our working and middle class. They are still suggesting that trickle down theory that is the most feudal of all modern theories of economy. I would love a free market, but supporting the rich while ignoring everyone else is not free market.

The government should use it's overwhelming budget by offering incentives, not subsidies. We don't need to bail out the airlines. We don't need to pay tax dollars on food and gas. We need to fix the problem and if the inefficient companies go bankrupt, then so be it. Also, we need to break up the monopolies and oligopolies because for every day the administration protects them is another day an upstart company is impossible in that field.

Responsible government....
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  #231  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2008, 3:00 PM
MarketsWork MarketsWork is offline
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spfaust, I don't see Europe's socialist model as a worthy example for American government or business. Europe's unemployment rates are unacceptably high by American standards. Even April 2008's record low rate of 7.1% (in the countries using the common Euro currency) would spell turmoil here, and Europe's typical rates have actually ranged between 8% and 10% through the 1990s through 2006.

Of further concern is Europe's rapidly-shrinking native populations, and the resulting ability of smaller future generations to continue funding the high social costs being racked up by today's European socialists. In order to maintain current programs, fewer and fewer European taxpayers will have to pay higher and higher tax rates -- and I don't believe it will take very long for that to become unrealistic. Europe's apparent solution to its modern childlessness -- the mass importation of Muslim labor -- is just beginning to show onerous financial, social and cultural costs of its own.

Too much power in the hands of bureaucrats spells trouble. Bureaucracies are plodding and unresponsive by nature, and can do serious harm to others in ways that market-insulated regulators cannot even see. Markets respond because buyers and sellers are immediately responsible for their successes and failures, and their greatest risks are to themselves. I trust the markets more than any government.
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  #232  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2008, 3:09 PM
Andrea Andrea is offline
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Still, I like the fact that all my E.U. friends make a lot more money than me plus they get 2-3 months of paid vacation. They also have pension plans and health insurance. I don't get any of that here.

If I wasn't so old I'd be tempted to go to work over there.
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  #233  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2008, 5:03 PM
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Main issue I have is that the US doesn't "work" anymore. "Out of Many, One" is maybe not a good model. I think the Euros have lately attempted that same model and it doesn't seem to work very well for them either. Time will tell.

Various groups (whites, blacks, Islamics, etc) want to maintain their own identities while at the same time trying to game the most out of the system. My comment is not meant to be applied to the 2008 election campaign one way or another, it's just a comment.
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  #234  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2008, 5:23 PM
BabydaddyATL BabydaddyATL is offline
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Originally Posted by Fiorenza View Post
Main issue I have is that the US doesn't "work" anymore. "Out of Many, One" is maybe not a good model. I think the Euros have lately attempted that same model and it doesn't seem to work very well for them either. Time will tell.

Various groups (whites, blacks, Islamics, etc) want to maintain their own identities while at the same time trying to game the most out of the system. My comment is not meant to be applied to the 2008 election campaign one way or another, it's just a comment.
Fiorenza - Why do you think the US doesn't "work" anymore? I will tell you why. Because the American worker is FED UP with the way they are treated. They are damn sick of seeing the C-Level's make more in 10 minutes than they do all year. They are sick of US companies shipping our jobs offshore. Mostly, they are SICK because 48 Million do not have healthcare!!!

Do you not believe the corporations do not try to "game the system" too? Cities or states can not get a company to move and create jobs unless they bend over and give them Millions in tax breaks and grants. Hell, even the existing companies are forcing cities and states to hand over Millions of dollars to keep them from relocating. Total bullshit!!! And you Republicans think we should let them threaten us and we should just keep our mouth shut!
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  #235  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2008, 5:48 PM
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Sure, companies game the system too, big time and they get away with it. There is no meaningful regulation. The political class has their hand out to facilitate the theft. But my point is, you can't stop individuals and corps from selling out to foreigners and/or leaving the country. This isn't Germany or Russia 1938. That model didn't work, either. What you can do, is boycott those products as a consumer. I was already boycotting Ford and will continue to do so.
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  #236  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2008, 6:23 PM
BabydaddyATL BabydaddyATL is offline
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Originally Posted by MarketsWork View Post
Too much power in the hands of bureaucrats spells trouble. Bureaucracies are plodding and unresponsive by nature, and can do serious harm to others in ways that market-insulated regulators cannot even see. Markets respond because buyers and sellers are immediately responsible for their successes and failures, and their greatest risks are to themselves. I trust the markets more than any government.
Do you really believe that crap?

So let me make sure I understand this correctly, you believe that a for profit individuals/companies consider the greater good as opposed to their personal interests more than government officials elected by the citizens? I can't even believe that somebody would even make a comment like that. Hell, most churches won't even let the preacher handle money.

"Markets respond because buyers and sellers are immediately responsible for their successes and failures, and their greatest risks are to themselves."
I guess you were never a shareholder of Home Depot's stock that never moved for five years and they let their CEO walk with $210 Million in severance. I guess I see what you are saying now MarketsWork. This is really a great system (insert sarcasm).
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  #237  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2008, 6:32 PM
BabydaddyATL BabydaddyATL is offline
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Originally Posted by Fiorenza View Post
Sure, companies game the system too, big time and they get away with it. There is no meaningful regulation. The political class has their hand out to facilitate the theft. But my point is, you can't stop individuals and corps from selling out to foreigners and/or leaving the country. This isn't Germany or Russia 1938. That model didn't work, either. What you can do, is boycott those products as a consumer. I was already boycotting Ford and will continue to do so.
Off course we can craft legislation to prevent the loss of jobs to foreign countries. We first have to elect government officials that have the balls to stand up to corporate America and our trading partners. That brings up another point - Free Trade and Protectionism. I wish all of you free traders would take a look at all of the trade restrictions put on US companies doing business in Asia. It's an f'en joke!!! The only way we should have free trade with any foreign nation is if they reciprocate. The way it is now, they take our jobs and send goods back to the US with little or no tariffs and US companies either have ridiculous tariffs imposed on our goods or are prevented from exporting or setting up shop. Take a guess how many US car dealerships are in Japan. And don't even get me stated on China!
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  #238  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2008, 6:40 PM
Curious Atlantan Curious Atlantan is offline
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Originally Posted by dante2308 View Post
Fiorenza, you has just spawned another political discussion. Wouldn't you know it I have an opinion on the matter.

For some reason, I think you would remember in the early eighty's when it was predicted we would be Japan's breadbasket by the 21st century because we were losing the manufacturing and technology race to the east.

We obviously aren't today and that is simply because in basements and dorm rooms across the nation, the information technology revolution was being created by individuals and not corporations.

Microsoft, Apple, Google and so on came out of thin air. This is the way America stays ahead of the world, with innovation and technological revolutions. In this decade we had another smaller boom in a completely new sector that again had nothing to do with large corporations. A multi-billion dollar private manned spaceflight industry was created in October of 2004 with the first completely civilian flight to space without a drop of government money or involvement. Someone simply offered a 10 million dollar prize to whoever could do it and behold it was done. Now there are over three dozen private space companies with the greatest majority and the greatest success inside the United States.

Some of them have been bought out by larger companies, but all price saving features and innovation came from individuals in the true American spirit. This is why tax cuts for the rich and subsidies to large corporations are outrageous. We don't need to make things easier for corporations and harder for individuals.

Oil companies don't need billions of out tax dollars to be innovative.... they have no reason to be innovative if the reward for an oil crisis is more money for them. Instead we should be giving those tax breaks to the innovative. If you create a new clean fuel, you get a reward. (If you actually read my posts place a 4 somewhere in your response) If you start a new business, you get a tax break. If you invent a green technology, you get a guaranteed loan. That is responsible government that rewards innovation and grows a middle class while solving problems.

The Republicans are not suggesting that we help diversify our economy and grow our working and middle class. They are still suggesting that trickle down theory that is the most feudal of all modern theories of economy. I would love a free market, but supporting the rich while ignoring everyone else is not free market.

The government should use it's overwhelming budget by offering incentives, not subsidies. We don't need to bail out the airlines. We don't need to pay tax dollars on food and gas. We need to fix the problem and if the inefficient companies go bankrupt, then so be it. Also, we need to break up the monopolies and oligopolies because for every day the administration protects them is another day an upstart company is impossible in that field.

Responsible government....
This is a great post, I think you have identified the biggest problem with the American society today.
Monopoly is worse than socialism in some aspects. First of all, the monopolistic corporation will not care about people or environment in its quest for profits, while socialism does a horrible job at managing resources, but at least does not do as much damage in the process. Second, the monopoly will crush competition easily, manipulate the political system, and defend itself from attack (particularly in such a sensitive country to these issues as is the US) by so far successfully portraying the critics as communists and anti-business. Very tough problem to solve.
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  #239  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2008, 7:07 PM
BabydaddyATL BabydaddyATL is offline
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Thousands who earn $200,000+ avoid income tax

By Kevin McCoy, USA TODAY
Death is inevitable, but federal income taxes aren't for an increased number of high-income earners.
New IRS statistics show 7,389 federal tax returns with $200,000 or more in adjusted gross income reported no federal income taxes in 2005. That's a 161% jump from the 2,833 comparable returns filed in 2004.

Additionally, 4,224 of the over-$200,000 earners reported no worldwide income tax liability on their 2005 returns, the IRS data show. That represents a 75% increase from the 2,420 comparable returns filed in 2004.

The data are the most recent available from the IRS. It shows a rising number of high-income earners have avoided the alternative minimum tax, which was intended to ensure that tax shelters, deductions and loopholes wouldn't exempt wealthy Americans from paying at least some federal income tax.

"It's an interesting case study on how people find ways to avoid paying taxes," said Howard Gleckman, a senior research associate and tax blog editor at The Tax Policy Center, a joint venture of the Urban Institute and the Brookings Institution.

MarketsWork - you actually think I should put my faith in these people?
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  #240  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2008, 7:43 PM
MarketsWork MarketsWork is offline
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Originally Posted by BabydaddyATL View Post
So let me make sure I understand this correctly, you believe that a for profit individuals/companies consider the greater good as opposed to their personal interests more than government officials elected by the citizens?
No, that's not what I believe. I don't believe anybody truly and consistently considers the greater good as opposed to their own interests -- and that includes bureaucrats as well as businesspeople. But I do believe that the free market, with its rewards and punishments, is the single greatest instrument of greater good. Government's proper and necessary role is the ensure a level playing field and adherence to the rule of law, but not to prescribe outcomes.

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Originally Posted by BabydaddyATL View Post
I guess you were never a shareholder of Home Depot's stock that never moved for five years and they let their CEO walk with $210 Million in severance. I guess I see what you are saying now MarketsWork. This is really a great system (insert sarcasm).
In fact, I was and still am a Home Depot shareholder -- and I didn't like Nardelli or the smelly deal that he left with. But while I am angry with the directors who made that deal, it wasn't illegal. The ultimate fault lies with the shareholders who (like I did) voted for that slate of directors. But I've been a HD shareholder for a long time, and have a much longer view than just the Nardelli years.
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