Lister Block | ? | 6 fl | Renovation

[Millstone]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

Engages the street -

in other words, no more shite like the Silvestri building on Caroline which shuns it's street corner.
Or the Ellen Fairclough building on King West which is nothing but a brick wall along the street.
James North buildings 'engage' the street. Lister used to engage the street.
We need buildings that open to the street and are full of life, various uses and pedestrian scaled.
No more Convention Centre bunkers or CIBC cold, empty, TO-style glass streetfronts.

I like the CIBC and various bank buildings along James and Hughson. They have their place, just like the "indie storefronts" do.

[HAMRetrofit]

Restaurant boss blames city for his Lister losses

http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/359133

April 24, 2008
Rachel De Lazzer
The Hamilton Spectator
(Apr 24, 2008)

An angry restaurant owner is facing a second week of lost business because of the demolition of a building beside the Lister Block.

Pat Satasuk of Thai Memory on King William Street is furious about the way the city has handled the situation.

"The city doesn't take any responsibility," said Satasuk.

"If the city cared enough for the empty buildings around this city, would this happen? No."

So far, Satasuk estimates the restaurant has lost around $5,000 in business.

Thai Memory has been closed since last Wednesday night when the 1880s structure beside the restaurant partially collapsed.

The structure was finally demolished over the weekend. But now there are fears the west wall of the two-storey restaurant building might be structurally unsound.

Building inspector Debbie Eydt said a demolition engineer became worried about the stability of the wall when he realized the second-floor tenant had stocked it with a library of books. Eydt said exposure to the weather also makes the wall potentially more unstable.

The city has issued an order to the building's Toronto owner to obtain an engineering report to determine whether it is safe, needs the stored books removed or is in danger of collapsing.

"The occupants can't go in until we get that report," said Eydt.


Interesting that there is no mention of the adjacent property owners.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by Millstone

I like the CIBC and various bank buildings along James and Hughson. They have their place, just like the "indie storefronts" do.

yes, they certainly have their place and are representative of a common office tower design from the 50's-90's. these days you see more office towers with some streetfront uses and ground floor uses.

Mixed use is the new method of construction and for good reason.

Not sure what you mean by 'indie storefronts'. Unless I missed someone else's post.

Even modern office architecture like Jackson Square can be softened and provide street life as evidenced by Honest Lawyer and PAMs.

[Gurnett71]

Originally Posted by Millstone

I like the CIBC and various bank buildings along James and Hughson. They have their place, just like the "indie storefronts" do.

I have always liked the Scotiabank on the south side of the Gore. I barely remember the old CIBC building. Would have been nice if CIBC could have incorporated the old building with a new structure behind it (kind of like Scotiabank Plaza in TO).

[I, Sinclair]

Originally Posted by the dude

silvestri has owned that property across from lister for 20 years. you can't win under those circumstances. raise the taxes on the property and all downtown properties and watch the sales begin.

This is the real solution. Institute a parking lot tax downtown, tax vacant buildings and empty lots higher than occupied ones, and then maybe the owners would have an incentive to sell or improve their properties.

It's within the authority of council, and it would completely change the attitude of property owners downtown.

[Millstone]

Originally Posted by I, Sinclair

This is the real solution. Institute a parking lot tax downtown, tax vacant buildings and empty lots higher than occupied ones, and then maybe the owners would have an incentive to sell or improve their properties.

It's within the authority of council, and it would completely change the attitude of property owners downtown.

What are you trying to do here, drive people away from downtown even more?

[flar]

^^how would that drive people away? It's a simple measure to force the hand of certain property owners. Owners of vacant lots and abandoned buildings are not "there" to begin with. It's quite obvious that many owners are sitting on land and buildings waiting for someone else to make the first moves toward revitalization. When the taxes are based on the assessed value of the property it only encourages owners to let them go so they don't pay as much tax.

[the dude]

nope, just speculators. i believe in georgist taxation and think it's worth a shot downtown. you tax the land, not the building. the tax rate would be the same whether there was an 18-storey condo tower or a parking lot. the tax rate would reflect the undeniable value of the downtown [i.e. high] and encourage the best possible use. obviously, a parking lot wouldn't make much sense under those circumstances. there's no guarantee it would work but it'd be much better than what we have currently.

[Millstone]

Originally Posted by flar

^^how would that drive people away? It's a simple measure to force the hand of certain property owners. Owners of vacant lots and abandoned buildings are not "there" to begin with. It's quite obvious that many owners are sitting on land and buildings waiting for someone else to make the first moves toward revitalization. When the taxes are based on the assessed value of the property it only encourages owners to let them go so they don't pay as much tax.

My main beef is he's imposing a higher tax on parking lots that in turn will just be passed onto the consumer, who is already torn between going to Meadowlands or Mapleview or Eastgate or Downtown, and just made their decision a little easier. That's all I'm saying.

[the dude]

at those rates it wouldn't be a parking lot for long. besides, i'm not sure many people are really wondering whether they'll be going to the meadowlands or downtown. there's no sobey's or future shop downtown. you come downtown for other reasons.

[Millstone]

Originally Posted by the dude

at those rates it wouldn't be a parking lot for long. besides, i'm not sure many people are really wondering whether they'll be going to the meadowlands or downtown. there's no sobey's or future shop downtown. you come downtown for other reasons.

You mention "other reasons" and presumably you mean to work. What about entertainment and shopping? You mention "those rates"... what are they?

As a personal side note, many of the people that live here in my building do drive, as there are the same 10-15 cars left in the adjacent privately-owned parking lot at the end of the night. I wouldn't mind paying a higher parking rate for the "greater good" of Hamilton, but eradicating the lots completely will be a sticky situation.

[matt602]

And yet again this thread is going way off topic and we're just arguing about architectural styles and slumlord land speculators. Let's remember the direct impact of this disaster: store owners on King William, specifically the ones quoted in the above news story. When they open again I will be going there for a meal and I'll be recommending others to do so as well, simply because I feel incredibly sorry for them. This whole situation was completely out of their hands and they've already lost loads of money. They took a property that had been vacant for years and made an incredibly good business off of it (the place was packed every night up until last week). Now they may even be looking at expensive fees to shore up the West wall or a worst case scenario, demolition. Another demolition would also be a fatal blow to King William.

When you think about how close knit these buildings are, how many will need to be demolished anyway? Are we gonna end up razing everything right over to Hughson? It sickens me that some people passing by were actually recommending that. King William between James and Hughson was one of our last completely intact stretch of heritage buildings left. Only the Lister, the ex adjacent building and another are currently abandoned. The ones that are not are doing very well.

The whole thing has me incredibly depressed, and I won't even get into the debate of whether to restore Lister, property standards and slumlords.

[flar]

Originally Posted by Millstone

My main beef is he's imposing a higher tax on parking lots that in turn will just be passed onto the consumer, who is already torn between going to Meadowlands or Mapleview or Eastgate or Downtown, and just made their decision a little easier. That's all I'm saying.

I see what you meant. Strangely enough, I never park in private lots in any cities I visit. I've always used municipal lots or street parking, so I'm not even sure how much those parking spots are to begin with.

[raisethehammer]

jack the taxes way up and these slum speculators will hit the road. nobody will operate a parking lot and pay insane taxes.
And they won't be able to pass it onto the customers because (as we all know) there is a ton of parking downtown...much of it municipaly owned - I don't think I've ever seen a car park on the top 2-3 stories of the York Blvd Parkade. There's plenty of parking downtown.
New buildings will usually house parking underground which is where the 'private lots' go.
I was in TO recently and parked in an office tower parking garage underground.

[DC83]

Originally Posted by matt602

Let's remember the direct impact of this disaster: store owners on King William, specifically the ones quoted in the above news story. When they open again I will be going there for a meal and I'll be recommending others to do so as well, simply because I feel incredibly sorry for them.

The whole thing has me incredibly depressed, and I won't even get into the debate of whether to restore Lister, property standards and slumlords.

This is a great idea, Matt!! I think I will also grab a bite there. It's Thai food, right? Mmmm. I'm sure my fav'd My Thai will understand just this once

I am also completely depressed over this... especially from what I was hearing from the ppl watching as the cops taped off the area that evening. I have yet to go back to the area, and don't know when I'll be able to make it back... until that resto re-opens, I guess.

[JT Jacobs]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

Engages the street -

in other words, no more shite like the Silvestri building on Caroline which shuns it's street corner.
Or the Ellen Fairclough building on King West which is nothing but a brick wall along the street.
James North buildings 'engage' the street. Lister used to engage the street.
We need buildings that open to the street and are full of life, various uses and pedestrian scaled.
No more Convention Centre bunkers or CIBC cold, empty, TO-style glass streetfronts.

This is precisely why the (Eaton's) City Centre failed so miserably: it shunned street commerce and pedestrians by facing its stores inward away from the street. If stores had flanked James ST then this (ugly) project might have had a chance. It still might if the ground floor was reconfigured to embrace the streetscape.

It is maddening to see major projects happen like this happen without more consideration for the implications of the design on actual lived urban experience.

[hmagazine]

Many thanks to the over 75 of you who came out last night to show your
displeasure in our current city council and their handling of our
city's past, present and future.

I am happy and encouraged to know that there are so many of you who
care about Hamilton and aren't willing to sit back and let our city be
pushed around anymore.

Stay tuned - this is just the beginning...

Dave Kuruc

[Jon Dalton]

I heard that the white building with Reardons and the convenience store, and the abandoned gray building next to it, are coming down next. The white building has been for sale for almost a year, $1.2 million. Does anyone know about the condition of these buildings?

[matt602]

Originally Posted by Jon Dalton

I heard that the white building with Reardons and the convenience store, and the abandoned gray building next to it, are coming down next. The white building has been for sale for almost a year, $1.2 million. Does anyone know about the condition of these buildings?

I really hope you're kidding. I certainly was when I said it in my post.

As far as I know the buildings are in great condition (Reardon's and the one on the corner). In fact Reardon's just spent a good chunk of money re-doing the interior.

[itsbryan]

Originally Posted by Jon Dalton

I heard that the white building with Reardons and the convenience store, and the abandoned gray building next to it, are coming down next. The white building has been for sale for almost a year, $1.2 million. Does anyone know about the condition of these buildings?

I think you're talking about Rapid Graphic, the white building. When I was in there last (I think.. summer of 2006), the place was in terrible condition. The first floor was collapsing.. I remember giant sinkholes, where the floor had actually caved on itself (so it didn't fall), and the hole was being covered by the carpet. When I inspected the basement, you could see the bottom of the hole, and the back of the carpet. This was common in the building.

So, from what I can tell, it was pretty bad. I know that the owners did a good job of sealing it up (prior to 2006, it was as simple as going through a wide open window).. and haven't heard of anyone going in since.