Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[zivan56]

Originally Posted by eduardo88

thats completely different, thats a private debt, it goes to a debt collection agency. Riding on skytrain without a ticket is a public debt

Ok, what is there to make sure you pay your ICBC debt? Now it is "public debt."

[zivan56]

Originally Posted by Nutterbug

So who is in charge of enforcing fare payment?

Court system and subsequent legal action (if taken).

[zivan56]

Originally Posted by officedweller

The offence provision is under the GREATER VANCOUVER TRANSIT CONDUCT AND SAFETY REGULATION:

http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/reg/S/SouthCoastBCTrans/87_99.htm#section%209

The Violation Ticket Administration and Fines Regulation under the Offence Act would then grant authority to issue tickets (NOTE: not inspect tickets) in respect of offences rather than taking each offender to court.

See Schedule I - Police Officer entitled to enforce GVTA Transit Conduct and Safety Regulation
See Schedule II - offences and fines
Note: still listed under the GVTA Act in this on-line version:

http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/reg/O/Offence/Offence89_97/89_97_00.htm

Thanks for the backup
Exactly what I have been arguing. Nowhere does it say liable to personal injury or even mention of a criminal offense.

[Nutterbug]

Originally Posted by zivan56

Court system and subsequent legal action (if taken).

Who's supposed to nab you at the scene, so that the court system can subsequently do their part?

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by zivan56

I think not:
http://www.gvtaps.bc.ca/common_qs/default.htm


So no, they are not authorized to check tickets! How many times have I said this before?
I don't see where it says it is a criminal offense, or where they have any right to anything except give you a ticket. It is a purely civilian matter, and will not show up on a criminal record. Is not paying your phone bill a criminal offense? Will they taser you if a Telus employee comes to collect money you haven't paid and you refuse? I think not...

In your earlier posts you were talking about the regular police (including some harrowing tale involving lights and sirens blaring in the middle of the night...you can't tell but I am crying over that on the inside), and now you're talking about the Transit police. And yes, you are correct that they (Transit Police) are not allowed to check tickets. However, the people who got tasered didn't just not pay for their ticket, but rather were resisting and therefore were subject to force being used. From the link you provided:

* Enforcing provincial and federal laws, including issuing violation tickets for fare evasion and other violations of the Transit Conduct and Safety Regulations.

If they try to issue you a ticket and you resist or run away, force can be used.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by zivan56

So no, they are not authorized to check tickets! How many times have I said this before?
...
Thanks for the backup
Exactly what I have been arguing.

I read the same thing and did not get any of your conclusions.

If you go to Officedweller's link and search 'fares' you will get to this page.

And to quote from BC law:

(2) A person shall, while he is in a fare paid zone, retain the proof of payment and produce it for inspection at the request of a transit employee.

No qualification of what type of transit employee, ie, blue coats or translink cops can inspect tickets.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

No qualification of what type of transit employee, ie, blue coats or translink cops can inspect tickets.

There aren't many transit employees that do check tickets, at least not platform attendants. But yes this is true, as from the 2007 Safety and Security Pamphlet by TransLink, Platform Attendants, SkyTrain Attendants, Plain Clothes Officers, Transit Security, as well as GVTAPS have the authority to inspect fares.

[zivan56]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

I read the same thing and did not get any of your conclusions.

If you go to Officedweller's link and search 'fares' you will get to this page.

And to quote from BC law:

No qualification of what type of transit employee, ie, blue coats or translink cops can inspect tickets.

Transit cops are not transit employees. Look:

"transit employee" means an employee of

(a) the authority,

(b) a subsidiary of the authority,

(c) an agent or contractor of the authority, or

(d) an agent or contractor of a subsidiary of the authority;

Since the police is neither contracted by them nor are they a subsidiary (you can't contract the police, nor are they a subsidiary of the transit authority)

[zivan56]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

...
However, the people who got tasered didn't just not pay for their ticket, but rather were resisting and therefore were subject to force being used. From the link you provided:

* Enforcing provincial and federal laws, including issuing violation tickets for fare evasion and other violations of the Transit Conduct and Safety Regulations.

If they try to issue you a ticket and you resist or run away, force can be used.

I don't believe use of deadly force is allowed even by their own engagement rules unless you threaten them. So while it is their job to give out tickets, they can't harm you unless you intend to harm them. In fact, what they are doing violates their own rules and is of total disregard for lives of other people.

[officedweller]

Schedule I of the Ticketing Regulation under the Offence Act specifically says that Police Officers can issue tickets for offences under the GVTA Act (i.e. not having a fare).

[Nutterbug]

Zivan, I really don't get what you're trying to accomplish here by wanting to undermine authority in every which way imaginable.

Don't want to suffer the consequences, don't break the rules. Simple as that.

Or is it a case of "Rah rah! Down with the system! Down with authority! Down with the establishment! Down with society!"?

[Nutterbug]

Originally Posted by Nutterbug

Anyways, the least the transit cops can do is carry around a camera and snap a shot of everybody they nab for their records. Then if any fare evading delinquent gives them a false name and address, they'll have their picture to put out an alert for to all the other transit cops.

Originally Posted by tintinium

That's a good idea. And with some face recognition technology they could scan a database on PDAs when querying for tickets.

In addition, they could also post the pictures of those who give false information or don't pay their fines, as a hall of shame of sorts, both online and at the stations. They could possibly even use them to query the public of their identities.

Of course this idea is also bound to be met with objection from certain bleeding hearts to whom the rights of criminals is paramount.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by zivan56

Transit cops are not transit employees. Look:


Since the police is neither contracted by them nor are they a subsidiary (you can't contract the police, nor are they a subsidiary of the transit authority)

Translink cops are GVTA employees just as the VPD are employees of the city of Vancouver. You fail to see that, then you can also see them as agents of the GVTA.

translink cops can inspect fares.

[zivan56]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Schedule I of the Ticketing Regulation under the Offence Act specifically says that Police Officers can issue tickets for offences under the GVTA Act (i.e. not having a fare).

Ok, I am really talking to a brick wall here. They can issue fines. However, they cannot check tickets and physically harm you for not having one.

[zivan56]

Originally Posted by Nutterbug

Zivan, I really don't get what you're trying to accomplish here by wanting to undermine authority in every which way imaginable.

Don't want to suffer the consequences, don't break the rules. Simple as that.

Or is it a case of "Rah rah! Down with the system! Down with authority! Down with the establishment! Down with society!"?

I am trying to make sure nobody gets tasered because they can't afford a ticket or accidentally lose theirs. Furthermore, I will do all I can to make sure the police can't harass you for not doing anything wrong on the street (regardless of when and where you are). I am sick and tired of the police killing people randomly (remember stanley park incidents?) whenever they want and however they want, with NO consequences.

[zivan56]

Originally Posted by Nutterbug

In addition, they could also post the pictures of those who give false information or don't pay their fines, as a hall of shame of sorts, both online and at the stations. They could possibly even use them to query the public of their identities.

Of course this idea is also bound to be met with objection from certain bleeding hearts to whom the rights of criminals is paramount.

You mean people like you? I personally think that is a great idea.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by zivan56

Ok, I am really talking to a brick wall here. They can issue fines. However, they cannot check tickets and physically harm you for not having one.

The incidents involving tasers arose from escalations beyond ticket fare checking. It has been highlighted many times in this thread already, but here it is again for you:

1. No valid fare presented.

2. Transit police ask for ID. Nothing reliable provided.

3. Transit police at this point have the power to arrest/detain the individual until their ID can be verified.

4. Morons resist #3, and get dealt with accordingly.

Again, these individuals could have very easily avoided any discomfort they experienced due to their own actions.

In general, I think police of all types exercise great restraint with the idiots they have to deal with on a daily basis.

[zivan56]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

Translink cops are GVTA employees just as the VPD are employees of the city of Vancouver. You fail to see that, then you can also see them as agents of the GVTA.

translink cops can inspect fares.

So if I go with that logic, private police forces are allowed? So ICBC for example, could have it's own police that it controls itself? I think not...you are confusing them with Transit Security.

Again:

Q. What is the difference between the responsibilities for SkyTrain Attendants, Transit Security (Coast Mountain Bus Company - CMBC) and Transit Police Officers?
A. Transit Police Service responsibilities include:

* Arresting people for outstanding warrants, enforcing drug laws and the Criminal Code (Canada);
* Patrolling trains, stations and transit property for added safety and security of transit passengers and employees; and,
* Enforcing provincial and federal laws, including issuing violation tickets for fare evasion and other violations of the Transit Conduct and Safety Regulations.


CMBC Transit Security responsibilities include:

* Helping ensure the safety and security of transit employees and passengers, and the protection of corporate assets and property;
* Handling incidents that are of a non-criminal nature; and,
* Gathering information and statistics through a quarterly fare audit.


SkyTrain Attendants (STAs) responsibilities include:

* Providing customer service;
* Providing first aid and emergency service;
* Trouble shooting train and station operations; and,
* Performing fare inspections.

[zivan56]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The incidents involving tasers arose from escalations beyond ticket fare checking. It has been highlighted many times in this thread already, but here it is again for you:

1. No valid fare presented.

2. Transit police ask for ID. Nothing reliable provided.

3. Transit police at this point have the power to arrest/detain the individual until their ID can be verified.

4. Morons resist #3, and get dealt with accordingly.

Again, these individuals could have very easily avoided any discomfort they experienced due to their own actions.

In general, I think police of all types exercise great restraint with the idiots they have to deal with on a daily basis.

Passive resistance is not to be responded with deadly force. Only active resistance with the person intending to harm the officer is a justified situation.

So according to you, the RCMP killing Robert Dziekanski is justified? People that think like that make me sick...

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by zivan56

Passive resistance is not to be responded with deadly force. Only active resistance with the person intending to harm the officer is a justified situation.

So according to you, the RCMP killing Robert Dziekanski is justified? People that think like that make me sick...

If the officer feels they are in danger, they can use force. People running and screaming can be pretty unpredictable. I say it was justified. You also have to bear in mind this was 2, of what, thousands of cases? Its the exception that proves the rule.

Regarding the airport RCMP, I'm sorry, did they unload 12 rounds into him? No, they tasered him. Its a terrible tragedy that he died, but it's a problem with tasers and their suggested application, not the use of force in general. If you think they were trying to kill him, you are a bigger idiot than I already thought, and that's saying something.