Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[zivan56]

Originally Posted by vanman

I completely agree with you Zivan. The other day I was on the train and some typical teenager was on as well, minding his own business. Skypigs (of the armed variety) entered the train and there were seemingly no problems for at least 2-3 stops. Then all of a sudden this kid gets dragged off the train and thrown into handcuffs for smelling like marijuana. They started searching him as well but then the train left and I didn't see what else happened. IMO this is complete —.

Exactly what I am trying to say. These people are lowlives that pick on whoever they can. That is why I always have a camera with me, just in case they decide to abuse their power. Isn't it sad how you have to resort to filming such things and releasing it to the media in order to have a BS investigation which at the end concludes the police did nothing wrong?
I have a friend who's mother lives near the guy who spoke out against police tactics a couple years back (he was a police officer). My friend told him how his mother always saw police coming in the middle of the night near his place and turn of the lights/blare their horns/turn on emergency sounds in order to intimidate him. This has been going on for years, and the poor guy is being traumatised by these pigs who have resorted to childish tactics.

Another thing happened yesterday, where the police almost ran over one of my family members. Basically, the police car was doing 70 on cambie and when the light turned red he first slowed down a bit (looking like he was going to stop) and then put on the lights and sirens and plowed through the intersection where people started crossing long ago. He could have killed at least 3 people if they didn't just out of the way. Again, these are worse tactics than the ones used by the police in the former eastern bloc countries. Pathetic IMO.

[zivan56]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

^^The bus driver spat on the passenger as the driver alleged that the passenger first refused to pay the fare and spat on the driver.

spitting at another person is considered assault and can be clearly prosecuted as assault.. If someone spits at a law enforcement officer, I would expect at least that person will be arrested, with or without some use of force to subdue the person. Would force be needed for spitting? hopefully not, but people spitting at police officers don't show the best judgement...

Do i think tasers should be used for fare evasion? as i said it seems extreme. But more aggressive gestures, even spitting, IMO will require more intervention from the police.
Your separate question -'are tasers a reliable non-lethal way to subdue people' is a fair one.

I know it's *legally* assult. However, the person who spat should not have their lives put in jepordy because of such a stupid incident. They could just tackle them or point a — at them, which will stop 99.9% of people.

I personally believe anything not putting the officers life in jeopardy should require use of nonlethal methods of restraint.
Plus all the studies on tasers have been done by people paid by Taser international. Vioxx anyone?

[zivan56]

Originally Posted by Nutterbug

So what are they getting prosecuted for?


So they have to break some locks or other structures to the house to gain entry. Add a vandalism charge to that.

The sign is just there. They can't do much to you except give you a financial fine for being on private property. This is not a redneck country where you can shoot people on your property.
Again, B&E != trespassing.

[zivan56]

Originally Posted by Nutterbug

If you don't produce ID when asked, they have every cause to take you in for thorough examination and to verify your identity without letting you get away. If you refuse or resist, you're asking for more aggressive measures.

And what gives them that rights to ask for ID in the first place? You are in no way required to give anything more than a verbal statement of you name.

[Nutterbug]

Originally Posted by zivan56

And what gives them that rights to ask for ID in the first place? You are in no way required to give anything more than a verbal statement of you name.

Yeah, and I can tell them that my name is George Walker Bush, and my address is 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington, DC.

And why do they have the right to ask for ID? Maybe the fact that they're law enforcement officers and you've been caught red-handed trying to cheat a ride out of the system.

[Nutterbug]

Originally Posted by zivan56

Exactly what I am trying to say. These people are lowlives that pick on whoever they can. That is why I always have a camera with me, just in case they decide to abuse their power. Isn't it sad how you have to resort to filming such things and releasing it to the media in order to have a BS investigation which at the end concludes the police did nothing wrong?
I have a friend who's mother lives near the guy who spoke out against police tactics a couple years back (he was a police officer). My friend told him how his mother always saw police coming in the middle of the night near his place and turn of the lights/blare their horns/turn on emergency sounds in order to intimidate him. This has been going on for years, and the poor guy is being traumatised by these pigs who have resorted to childish tactics.

I have a feeling this guy also isn't exactly a totally angelic model citizen and total do-gooder who never does anything to cause trouble.

There's his side of the story, the cops' side of the story, and the truth lost somewhere inbetween.

[eduardo88]

Originally Posted by zivan56

And what gives them that rights to ask for ID in the first place? You are in no way required to give anything more than a verbal statement of you name.

No they don't have the right to ask you for ID except in three cases:
1. If they suspect that you have committed an offence
2. If they actually see you committing an offence
3. If you are driving

This excludes crossing borders, or if you are carrying a weapon (which of course you need a permit for too).

However, they are permitted to ask you to identify yourself for no reason at all. The officer may ask your name, address, what you are doing or where you are going. In most circumstances you are not required to produce identification. If you refuse to comply there are legal grounds for them to demand ID (ie: if you are being diffucult, verbally abusive, or have been acting suspiciously). The police can pull someone in for 'questioning' and detain the person because of 'suspicion'. It is worse if you tell a police officer that you do not have ID, and then you get pulled in for questioning or get detained, and they happen to find ID on you.

Also, police officers are not to give tickets or issue fines unless they are completely satisfied that the information provided to them is completely accurate and truthful.


It's great to see how much respect people have for law enforcement officers on this forum, particularly zivan56....

[quobobo]

Originally Posted by eduardo88

How is that complete —? Marijuana is a controlled substance and there was reasonable cause to search him....

The RCMP and VPD both ignore it 99% of the time, so yes - it is somewhat excessive for transit cops to be cracking down. If they have enough free time to crack down on pot smokers, then I really doubt they're earning their keep.

That would explain why I've seen transit cops twice in the last year despite riding the B-Line every day...

[eduardo88]

Originally Posted by quobobo

The RCMP and VPD both ignore it 99% of the time, so yes - it is somewhat excessive for transit cops to be cracking down. If they have enough free time to crack down on pot smokers, then I really doubt they're earning their keep.

Just because they ignore it doesnt mean it's not illegal. RCMP and VPD have much more important things to do that stop recreational users. As marijuana is illegal, transit police do have the authority to stop you as you are committing a crime on premises that they have jurisdiction and the responsibility of policing.

[vanlaw]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

no its been decriminalized

Ummmm...No. We may be in state of "de facto" decriminalization, but that by no means is official decriminalization.

[Nutterbug]

Originally Posted by zivan56

I know it's *legally* assult. However, the person who spat should not have their lives put in jepordy because of such a stupid incident. They could just tackle them or point a — at them, which will stop 99.9% of people.

The whole situation is preventable on the part of the offender. Can you guess how? No need for anybody else to endure another spit to the face because of his stupidity or short temperedness.

Originally Posted by zivan56

Again, B&E != trespassing.

So what makes B&E such an offense if it has nothing to do with being somewhere where you're not supposed to be?

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by vanlaw

Ummmm...No. We may be in state of "de facto" decriminalization, but that by no means is official decriminalization.

well its certainly not legalized as the person was wondering

whatever state its in its not amserdam and people can still be busted for it

[mezzanine]

[QUOTE=zivan56]They could just tackle them or point a — at them, which will stop 99.9% of people.[QUOTE]

Tackle people? If i'm a police officer, that removes a lot of control that I would have of the situation and put myself at considerably more risk of getting injured. what if the guy is on crack and feels invincible? what happens in the melee that a bystander gets injured? and i would not say that tackling is free of lethal consequences.

Pointing a — at people? i'm no police officer, but if a cop pulls a — on me, that greatly increases my chance of getting killed. an artist with bipolar disorder was shot by the VPD after he hit a cop with a chain a few months ago - cops don't shoot to maim, they shoot to kill...

Other weapons, like nightsticks? you can do that, but again, less control of a situation, a situation being drawn out, and also a good chance of getting seriously injured or killed. worse than a taser? i can't tell for sure...

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by eduardo88

How is that complete —? Marijuana is a controlled substance and there was reasonable cause to search him....

oh god... who are you, mary — poppins?

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by zivan56

I see you fail to see the seriousness and side effects of a taser. How can you run from the police when you haven't done anything? You are under no obligation to listen to them if you haven't done anything that is an arrestable offense. Again, it's a gray area.

well then, obviously you have no respect for police authority....which seems to be a problem with folks like you these days.

you're basically saying, let people who don't pay fares get away with it....and when criminals (or "offenders") start running away from the police, the police are powerless to do anything. That's perhaps the most retarded thing I've heard in a while.

no wonder why we let criminals get away with so much these days, with people like you and their logic running the country.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by zivan56

I see you fail to see the seriousness and side effects of a taser. How can you run from the police when you haven't done anything? You are under no obligation to listen to them if you haven't done anything that is an arrestable offense. Again, it's a gray area.

Not a gray area at all. If a peace officer stops you, you have to obey him/her. The moment they ask you to stop they have initiated an investigation, and rightly or wrongly the law gives them broad power to stop you. If you don't believe it, the next time a cop stops you just keep on walking and see how long till you're kissing pavement. Also, Although you are not required to carry ID on your person, an officer has the power to keep you there until they can verify your identity. (thats a common myth where people say you don't have to give a cop your name, and if anyone has attended law school you know thats one of the first things that is covered).

[zivan56]

Originally Posted by Nutterbug

I have a feeling this guy also isn't exactly a totally angelic model citizen and total do-gooder who never does anything to cause trouble.

There's his side of the story, the cops' side of the story, and the truth lost somewhere inbetween.

and I have a feeling this guy is a right wing — Conservative.

Problems with the law?
I think not. In fact, I have only been approached by the police once...ages ago (when I was ~14). It was actually pretty funny, he accused me and a friend walking to another friends house of having fireworks and trying to "run away" from him. He then started acting like Mr —, and saying this and that. However, when I told him that he should bring up those issues with my father (who saw him talking to us and pulled over to see what was going on), the "officer" ran away with his tail between his legs. That's pretty much it. However, I see what they do in the media and real life, and it's pretty brutal IMO.
Otherwise, no problems...sweaky clean here and a pretty much model citizen. I work regularly and when I didn't have a job I never even went on welfare. So your assumption is wrong. In fact, I probably volunteer and help in the community way more than you (no offense, but you sound like a grumpy old man from your posts).

[zivan56]

Originally Posted by eduardo88

...

It's great to see how much respect people have for law enforcement officers on this forum, particularly zivan56....

Aww, I feel all warm and fuzzy for being mentioned
Sorry, but I have no respect for cops I have seen disrespecting, assaulting, and abusing people without regard for the law and basic human decency.

[zivan56]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

Tackle people? If i'm a police officer, that removes a lot of control that I would have of the situation and put myself at considerably more risk of getting injured. what if the guy is on crack and feels invincible? what happens in the melee that a bystander gets injured? and i would not say that tackling is free of lethal consequences.

Pointing a — at people? i'm no police officer, but if a cop pulls a — on me, that greatly increases my chance of getting killed. an artist with bipolar disorder was shot by the VPD after he hit a cop with a chain a few months ago - cops don't shoot to maim, they shoot to kill...

Other weapons, like nightsticks? you can do that, but again, less control of a situation, a situation being drawn out, and also a good chance of getting seriously injured or killed. worse than a taser? i can't tell for sure...

Aww, poor officer not wanting to do his job. Would he like a tackling assistant to do it for him?
I guess they are not so tough without their big fat union jobs which make them above the law.
Again, if they are attacked they have the right to self defense. However, they should not attack someone who has not made a threat towards them.
There is always the 0.01% of situation like this, which would happen one way or another. However, I prefer that more people stay alive at the end.
Why do they shoot to kill??!! They never though about shooting him in the leg or something? Well I guess they don't care, as they are not human

[zivan56]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

well then, obviously you have no respect for police authority....which seems to be a problem with folks like you these days.

you're basically saying, let people who don't pay fares get away with it....and when criminals (or "offenders") start running away from the police, the police are powerless to do anything. That's perhaps the most retarded thing I've heard in a while.

no wonder why we let criminals get away with so much these days, with people like you and their logic running the country.

Wow
I am saying don't put people in life threatening situation due to a silly thing such as a ticket. Give them a fine, sure; but don't shoot them with a lethal weapon.
I have respect for the police in some countries (like Japan or Germany for example), but definitely not for the RCMP (and subsidiaries). They are like a private company miltia who think they are above the law.
I guess that's the police state mentality, everybody is guilty before innocent
Good luck with that, when the police decide to use a cattle prod on everyone passing by to make sure they are always obeyed, then you will see how they are slowly taking your rights and freedoms away.
No wonder we are headed towards a police state, because of people like you and your mentality
According to people like you...putting people in jail works. I suggest to move to the US and see how it works...highest incarceration rate in the world and highest murder rate. I guess you will feel safe there.