The future of Hamilton's public transit

[raisethehammer]

Let the education battle begin. This will be quite a challenge to convince Hamiltonians of the benefits of LRT. All they hear is "less car lanes" and "lots of money for something I'll never use" ....their conclusion? spend as little as possible and use the rest to fill my potholes.

The Spec is the trump card in this. If they do their research on EcDev spinoff and get on the LRT train (no pun intented) this city will go for it. If they whine and cry about cars and wasted money on a social service (transit) people won't go for it.

Sharpen your pencils folks.

[Gurnett71]

Although I wouldn't be using the LRT in the near future (I work in Burlington), I am all for it. The economic spinoffs are too great to pass up. Additionally, this would allow for density intensification along the LRT route, which would fulfil the vision 2020 statement/Green Belt legislation.

Has a proper cost-benefit analysis been done on the LRT?? From what I have read, I have only seen the potential capital and running costs of a LRT--no economic benefits have been detailed.

[raisethehammer]

more good news about GO Station at Hunter Street:

http://900chml.com/Channels/Reg/NewsLocalGeneral/Story.aspx?ID=1004082

[SteelTown]

Awesome!

I'm so pumped with the direction HSR is taking. Excited to hear with my own ears the lady calling each of the stops apporaching, I'm a sucker for crap like that lol.

[I, Sinclair]

Originally Posted by RePinion

If they choose BRT, they're setting us back at least twenty years. It wouldn't be worth staying here ...

Originally Posted by flar

The LRT vs BRT outcome will greatly affect my decision on whether to stay in Hamilton as well.

Oh, come on now. This is just the negative case of the rescue fantasy. LRT/Harry Stinson/Lister restoration/etc is not going to rescue hamilton from it's problems. A city is a system, and yes, LRT looks to be a very good leverage point to raise the performance of the system. But without addressing the systemic problems Hamilton faces, it will be a wasted opportunity. A light rail train full of hobos and walmart greeters is not any better than a bus (no disrespect to hobos).

In a metro area of 700k, there isn't even a market for my labour, and I am forced to drive to an office park in Brampton. All I require in terms of infrastructure is a network connection and a dry place to put my minions. Yet not one post industrial company has even bothered to look at downtown hamilton as a location. This is the nut we have to crack to keep people in Hamilton.

LRT, BRT or autorickshaw, without a 21st century labour market, I will be hard pressed to stay in Hamilton in the long run.

[RePinion]

Originally Posted by I, Sinclair

Oh, come on now. This is just the negative case of the rescue fantasy. LRT/Harry Stinson/Lister restoration/etc is not going to rescue hamilton from it's problems. A city is a system, and yes, LRT looks to be a very good leverage point to raise the performance of the system. But without addressing the systemic problems Hamilton faces, it will be a wasted opportunity. A light rail train full of hobos and walmart greeters is not any better than a bus (no disrespect to hobos).

In a metro area of 700k, there isn't even a market for my labour, and I am forced to drive to an office park in Brampton. All I require in terms of infrastructure is a network connection and a dry place to put my minions. Yet not one post industrial company has even bothered to look at downtown hamilton as a location. This is the nut we have to crack to keep people in Hamilton.

LRT, BRT or autorickshaw, without a 21st century labour market, I will be hard pressed to stay in Hamilton in the long run.

"Rescue fantasy" is pushing it. It's more an expression of intense frustration with an obtuse city administration which consistently appears to favour certain agendas over the interests of the city at large. Is this anything new in municipal politics? Obviously not. But other cities, even ones of similar size and wealth to Hamilton, still manage to get good works done. I think informed, community-minded Hamiltonians are exceedingly tired of having carrots constantly being dangled in front of them, invariably to be snatched away. I don't think Harry Stinson or a restored Lister will save the city. I've said as much before. Nevertheless, one cannot deny the symbolic weight with which the Connaught and Lister projects as well as the LRT project are fraught. They are - accurately or inaccurately - implicitly taken to be barometrically representative of the progress of the downtown at large. People understandably want to see a momentum forming, but all we seem to get are more delays and prevarications.

I couldn't agree more with the proposition that what the downtown really needs is more of a business presence. Even if the city does see residential growth in the downtown area, this will not be a panacea for the all city's
woes because, let's face it, Hamilton has largely ceased to be a city of economic opportunity. I would love to see the office towers filled up and even new edifices built. Obviously there must be a reason for businesses to relocate to the core, though. If the land is ultimately cheaper in the suburbs and a given company's employee base already lives there (as is so often the case with white collar firms), what incentive is there to move downtown? If the employees (and more importantly, executive decision makers) want to live downtown, maybe then there will be at least something to encourage firms to relocate there too.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by I, Sinclair

Oh, come on now. This is just the negative case of the rescue fantasy. LRT/Harry Stinson/Lister restoration/etc is not going to rescue hamilton from it's problems. A city is a system, and yes, LRT looks to be a very good leverage point to raise the performance of the system. But without addressing the systemic problems Hamilton faces, it will be a wasted opportunity. A light rail train full of hobos and walmart greeters is not any better than a bus (no disrespect to hobos).

In a metro area of 700k, there isn't even a market for my labour, and I am forced to drive to an office park in Brampton. All I require in terms of infrastructure is a network connection and a dry place to put my minions. Yet not one post industrial company has even bothered to look at downtown hamilton as a location. This is the nut we have to crack to keep people in Hamilton.

LRT, BRT or autorickshaw, without a 21st century labour market, I will be hard pressed to stay in Hamilton in the long run.

BRT or rickshaw won't draw 21st Century companies downtown (autorickshaw is the name of a sweet Canadian band).
LRT has the potential to lay the framework that can enable us to draw those companies. You have a vested interest in seeing LRT happen here. Without it and it's spinoff EcDev, you too will be 'out of here' if we don't go for LRT.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

more good news about GO Station at Hunter Street:

http://900chml.com/Channels/Reg/NewsLocalGeneral/Story.aspx?ID=1004082

That's definitely good news, especially when trains are cancelled from Hamilton because they can't get here in time for whatever reason. I was pissed off this morning when I showed up for the 6:34 train that never arrived and wound up sitting for 30 minutes on the 7:04 waiting for it's departure. This happens often and I hate losing 30 minutes of sleep for nothing.

But I have to ask... 6 mill for a "layover facility"? It's just a spot for the train to stay overnight, isn't it? Is it that price because they had to buy the land for it?

[SteelTown]

It'll be a downtown yard, more rail tracks will be made to keep GO Trains overnight and off of the main rail track to let CP continue using the line.

[I, Sinclair]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

BRT or rickshaw won't draw 21st Century companies downtown (autorickshaw is the name of a sweet Canadian band).
LRT has the potential to lay the framework that can enable us to draw those companies. You have a vested interest in seeing LRT happen here. Without it and it's spinoff EcDev, you too will be 'out of here' if we don't go for LRT.

I'm not sure LRT will either. It will certainly improve the quality of life for Hamiltonians, probably allow great stretches of downtown to gentrify, but it's just one piece of the puzzle.

I'm very excited by the thought of LRT in Hamilton. I have emailed my councillor repeatedly. I really hope it happens.

[RePinion]

Originally Posted by I, Sinclair

I'm not sure LRT will either. It will certainly improve the quality of life for Hamiltonians, probably allow great stretches of downtown to gentrify, but it's just one piece of the puzzle.

Yes, but as RTH judiciously said, it does have "the potential to lay the framework that can enable us to draw those companies".

It is only one piece of the puzzle. I happen to believe that it is potentially a very central one.

[I, Sinclair]

Originally Posted by RePinion

Nevertheless, one cannot deny the symbolic weight with which the Connaught and Lister projects as well as the LRT project are fraught. They are - accurately or inaccurately - implicitly taken to be barometrically representative of the progress of the downtown at large. People understandably want to see a momentum forming, but all we seem to get are more delays and prevarications.

Agreed, the perception of positive momentum would be greatly increased by an LRT project.

Originally Posted by RePinion

If the land is ultimately cheaper in the suburbs and a given company's employee base already lives there (as is so often the case with white collar firms), what incentive is there to move downtown? If the employees (and more importantly, executive decision makers) want to live downtown, maybe then there will be at least something to encourage firms to relocate there too.

Suburban business parks are cheaper on the bottom line only because there are huge external costs that are not included. Transportation costs are moved from rate paying businesses to the employees and servicing costs are low on capital structures that are probably only 10 years old and therefore haven't required any lifetime repairs.

As an anecdotal data point, I have very rarely encountered colleagues who worked in the same suburb that they lived in (in a career encompassing the great arc of 905 from Markham to Hamilton and points in between).

I predict that in 20 years, it will be more expensive, bottom line, to locate in a 30 year old Mississaugan box than a 130yo downtown Hamilton building.

Anyway, this has precious little to do with LRT. But I've typed it now, so too bad

plus a banana (removed banana. lord, that was annoying)

[I, Sinclair]

Originally Posted by RePinion

Yes, but as RTH judiciously said, it does have "the potential to lay the framework that can enable us to draw those companies".

It is only one piece of the puzzle. I happen to believe that it is potentially a very central one.

I just don't see the causal link. What am I missing?

[RePinion]

Originally Posted by I, Sinclair

Agreed, the perception of positive momentum would be greatly increased by an LRT project.



Suburban business parks are cheaper on the bottom line only because there are huge external costs that are not included. Transportation costs are moved from rate paying businesses to the employees and servicing costs are low on capital structures that are probably only 10 years old and therefore haven't required any lifetime repairs.

As an anecdotal data point, I have very rarely encountered colleagues who worked in the same suburb that they lived in (in a career encompassing the great arc of 905 from Markham to Hamilton and points in between).

I predict that in 20 years, it will be more expensive, bottom line, to locate in a 30 year old Mississaugan box than a 130yo downtown Hamilton building.

Anyway, this has precious little to do with LRT. But I've typed it now, so too bad

plus a banana

I would actually second your anecdotal point with one of my own. I am well acquainted through business ties with a lot of the managers who work at Ford in Oakville. A good many do live in Oakville but a greater proportion live in Burlington. This however is almost entirely related to the differential in housing prices which once existed between the two suburbs (it has since narrowed if not disappeared). I can't vouch for too many other businesses or suburbs, but I do know a good many people who both live and work in Mississauga (but of course it is an enormous suburb).

I think you're right on when you refer to the externalization of costs possible with suburban office parks. This is a major obstacle to downtown development but one which may eventually be overcome by obvious external factors.

As for LRT, few major businesses will relocate to the core just because an LRT line might be there, granted. However, in the long run, when (if?) the suburban business model becomes unsustainable (economically, not environmentally - it already is that), businesses may be forced to look more favourably at denser communities with high order transit options to get employees to work quickly and efficiently. LRT is also likely to have much lower operating costs than bus transport in the long term, which means, by extension, lower tax costs passed on to businesses operating in the core (or wherever else in the city). Obviously, the connections are tenuous and still very much theoretical at this point, and the most important thing LRT may do in the long run is to improve the image of the city whether to businesses or potential residents or visitors ...

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

more good news about GO Station at Hunter Street:

http://900chml.com/Channels/Reg/NewsLocalGeneral/Story.aspx?ID=1004082

This is great, great news. I think this might be one step closer to Hamilton getting a rush hour express train to Union Station in the morning and back in the evening. Lets hope so, and lets hope for 2 express trains.

[SteelTown]

Ministry of Transportation

Improvements to B-Line King-Main Corridor - $17,400,000 - Received
Improvements to A-Line James-Upper James Corridor - $12,400,000 - Received
Roads & Bridges Infrastructure Program - $8,806,309 - Receive by June 30, 2008
GO platform - $3,000,000 - Received
GO layover facility - $6,000,000 - Received
Transit Capital Grant - $7,522,653 - Received

Metrolinx

Bicycle Related Infrastructure - $190,987 - Received

Total investment to Hamilton's Infrastructure from the Provincial government this year = $55,319,949

Public Transit alone = $46,513,640

For everything including Lister Block funding, Pedestrian bridge, social housing, etc the provincial government has given Hamilton $94,052,831.

I'm glad I voted for the Liberals lol.

[Millstone]

thespec.com's poll is in favour of LRT right now.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by I, Sinclair

In a metro area of 700k, there isn't even a market for my labour, and I am forced to drive to an office park in Brampton. All I require in terms of infrastructure is a network connection and a dry place to put my minions. Yet not one post industrial company has even bothered to look at downtown hamilton as a location. This is the nut we have to crack to keep people in Hamilton.

I totally agree, and this is a major problem that Hamilton faces.

I'm assuming from other threads, many condos in Hamilton are a tough sell. Besides some being of a questionable quality/design the reason they don't sell (or aren't developed, as seen in many loan cancellations today), is because downtown condo owners work close to where they live.

I work for a software company in Toronto with 60+ employees. Employees are predominantly in their 20's and 30's and either walk to work (the President walks from his Rogers Centre area condo), bike, or take a short transit ride to the office. Next to no one drives to the office, and many of my co-workers don't even own cars.

Hamilton should be actively recruiting companies like (maybe a little smaller) the one I work for and offering them incentives to move to downtown Hamilton. Think about 5 or 6, or 10+ companies with 15 - 50 employees in their 20's and 30's doing software/high tech in downtown Hamilton. Think of the spin offs. These smallish companies would spawn other software/high tech companies and they all want a central downtown setting with old character offices, beam & brick, walk, bike, transit to work, places to grab breakfast, lunch and a drink (or two) after work.

We have the following software/high tech companies in my office building at Spadina & Adelaide, Intelex, Codesta, Onerail, Interwork (Toronto), and that's just off the top of my head there are others. Also, RL Solutions and Indigo are just around the corner.

[flar]

If the city chooses BRT over LRT I will take it as a sign that the city is not serious about realizing its potential. I want Hamilton to realize its potential, but I don't want to spend my entire life waiting for it to happen when there are so many other cities out there where things are happening now. I think it's a key piece of the revitalization puzzle and a very symbolic move for the city. That's why it will factor into my personal plans.

[miketoronto]

Fairhamilton,
I would say Hamilton should go even further then just promoting downtown for high-tech companies. Hamilton should be forming a plan to make downtown Hamilton the second largest business district in the Greater Toronto-Hamilton area. That would so drive up transit use in Hamilton and also condo sales.