PHILADELPHIA | American Commerce Center | 1,510' Pinnacle / 1,210' Roof | 63 FLOORS

[SignLion]

Good stuff. Thanks for the meeting minutes!

[skyscraper]

Originally Posted by apetrella802

i was at the DAG meeting this morning where KPF and Walnut Street Capital presented a somewhat detailed analysis of the design issues for ACC.

Brad M. was there and i'm sure he will post on his website his thoughts.

The things I remeber that I thought were significant were:

a) The viability of this supertall project is based to a large extent on the concept of mixed use so there is a synergism between the hotel, retail and office components. So that the internal integration would facilitate the office workers using the hotel facilities such as restaurant and conference rooms for example.

b) public amenities are very prominate in the retail base, including garden like ground level accessable from the street, a mini-multiplex featuring food based on a concept that has taken hold in australia.

c) the NW corner flanges that terminate in the spire are meant to relate to the presence of the Art Musuem which will be viable from the roof garden. This is a little vague but not entirely without some merrit.

d) Alan Greenberger asked if KPF has any experience with designing a very high density skyscraper on a colonial street grid and in fact they did! In the Wall Strett area of NY. This area is of course a tangle of 17th c. streets.

e) when a NIMBY got agitated about how narrow Cuthpert st was saying that it was only 13 feet wide the KPF man produced a diagram showing that trhe loading docks were at the point where it was 17 feet wide. The KPF man then went on to talk about how the nature of a city is to allow high density living. Philadlephia's train and subway sytem allow this to work whereas in a city like Atlanta they need 12 stories of parking in order to accommodate this desity.

f) they will explore how to have a direct connection to the underground concourse.

g) shadow studies are under way but the Sterling might have shadow in the early morning but by mid-mording this should not be an issue.

h) there will be a need for some zoning or legislative chnabges but they did not sound to be difficult to deal with.

i) When the developer was asked if he had ever attempted something on this scale he said no but KPF and law firm representing the developer have had experience in desinging and bringing to fruition many super talls around the world.

j) When asked about an observation platform there was a firm NO! The cost of robbing space for 2 or 3 elevator shafts would make the project untenable.

In all i thought the team,i.e., KPF, Developer and law firm, have really done their homework and are continuing to do so.

I thought the KPF people and the develop

thanks for the update. I meant to go to this meeting but was unable to at the last moment. any new photos/renderings of the building? any idea what the next steps are?

[Swinefeld]

Top notch update, Arthur. I can't wait to see RBM's take on the proceedings later today.

[Don098]

I totally forgot about this meeting :-( thanks for the minutes, they sound very encouraging and answered some of my questions...

[kraggman]

Another tower with no obs deck. I'm surprised they can't design just a walkway around the perimeter of a top floor, that wouldn't use much space. Plus, they could charge a nominal fee eg $5.00 or so to recover some of the lost lease money. And at that height, I'm sure they'd make some money. Am I off base or out of touch with this thought ?? I'd pay 5 bucks to see that view.

[skellergroup]

As of what we know today....what are the odds in your own opinion that this will get built.

10%, 30%, 80%?

I'd be really interested in what we all think about the reality of this project.
- though, let's not get negative

We ALL want it built.

[theWatusi]

from what I gather the biggest factor in having an obs deck is the space that a dedicated elevator shaft or two would take up.

I guess I'll just have to rent the top floor myself and charge all of you guys $10/a pop to come up and visit me.

[mayhem]

Looks good except for the pinnacle.

[mayhem]

Originally Posted by apetrella802

e) when a NIMBY got agitated about how narrow Cuthpert st was saying that it was only 13 feet wide the KPF man produced a diagram showing that trhe loading docks were at the point where it was 17 feet wide. The KPF man then went on to talk about how the nature of a city is to allow high density living. Philadlephia's train and subway sytem allow this to work whereas in a city like Atlanta they need 12 stories of parking in order to accommodate this desity.

While this angers me, it is unfortunately true.

[volguus zildrohar]

Thanks for that info, ap.

WSC had really better do their homework.

[apetrella802]

there was another point i just remembered from the DAG meeting on ACC

someone seemed to be critical of the spire not for aesthic reasons but because there was no use for it, meaning that in an age of digital transmission over cable as opposed to analog broadcast the spire was superfluous.

But a spire has very often been built as a metaphor for human aspirations. The spire of a cathedral has no practical use, its not the bell tower but an attenuation of the masonry structure pointing Man to God. This isn't always the case, e.g.., a tall mineret is a practicle way of communicating to people over a wide area.

This criticism seemed to me to be petty and the person making the criticism has never and never will design anything remotely like ACC. The KPF chief design architect to whom the criticism was directed was very able in defending his design. This kind of issue brings up the mission of this group which is:

"The mission of the Design Advocacy Group is to provide an independent and informed public voice for design quality in the architecture and physical planning of the Philadelphia region. Our goal is be proactive as well as reactive; effective as well as thoughtful; critical as well as constructive. We want to create an unparalleled voice for design, a group whose opinion on the quality of our environment is sought after and whose contribution makes a difference. We are a group drawn from a broad spectrum of disciplines, comprised of motivated individuals who are routinely engaged in matters of design, development and planning and who are not afraid to speak out. "

So the essence is being an advocate for Design Quality. In this case one person seemed( i can't be sure of course) to say that the spire was maybe arbitrary and so that might be seen as less than first rate design. Of course this group has no real power to effect this kind of change and in this case i for one think that's how it should be. Anyway its good that the man made a challange and the architect was very able to defend against it.

[kraggman]

Originally Posted by theWatusi

from what I gather the biggest factor in having an obs deck is the space that a dedicated elevator shaft or two would take up.

I guess I'll just have to rent the top floor myself and charge all of you guys $10/a pop to come up and visit me.

Does that include a beer ??

[theWatusi]

Originally Posted by kraggman

Does that include a beer ??

Yes, one free Keystone Light with your purchase.

[NYguy]

Although the similarity has been mentioned a lot, the difference is one design works, where the other would have been a disaster...

[adrgtr8]

The bottom line is Freedom Tower was not built, so in twenty years or more, nobody will care what other design it might have looked like. Besides, the original design Freedom Tower (pure spire) was cooler anyway. The pix above come from the redesign when developers wanted to add bulk to Libeskind's design. It went from art into a an atrocity. It was supposed to be a symbol/structure in the original plan (i.e. Eiffel Tower) but developers needed to make a profit on that prime space and turned it into the bulky office tower we now have. The design above was transitional and hideous, whereas ACC has always been planned for bulk, it handles itself much better, like the spire and indent on the tower lining up. Great project! Let's cross our collective fingers on this one!

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by adrgtr8

The pix above come from the redesign when developers wanted to add bulk to Libeskind's design. It went from art into a an atrocity.

Actually, the version above came when the former governor of NY wanted to merge two designs, retaining the "symbolic" asymetrical spire.

It was supposed to be a symbol/structure in the original plan (i.e. Eiffel Tower) but developers needed to make a profit on that prime space and turned it into the bulky office tower we now have.

Let's not hijack this thread into a FT debate, but besides having different architects, the practical reason for the redesign of the FT was because the television broadcasters were brought on to the project, thus making it no longer only an office tower, but a broadcast tower as well.

That being said, I think the ACC designs shows how a sharp, asymetrical spire could work. If this gets underway, maybe the former Piano tower in Boston will get underway, creating a wave of thousand footers down the east coast.

[bucks native]

Note that this is not so far out. NJ is struggling with its budget and might mave to whack its employers with a $350 mil bill to finance its underfunded unemployment compensation fiasco. Nutter can do this....

Region seeks to score TD

Officials jockey for Commerce HQ successor to stay local
Philadelphia Business Journal - April 7, 2008 by Jeff BlumenthalStaff Writer


Philadelphia Mayor Michael Nutter has met with TD Bank Financial Group's top executives in an attempt to have the company relocate newly formed subsidiary TD Commerce Bank's headquarters to Center City.

"The mayor has had conversations with them, and he's excited at the prospect of having a new headquarters in Philadelphia," said Doug Oliver, the mayor's spokesman. "But TD Bank is engaging in a location search on the East Coast and Philadelphia is just one of those options."

[volguus zildrohar]

Originally Posted by NYguy

That being said, I think the ACC designs shows how a sharp, asymetrical spire could work. If this gets underway, maybe the former Piano tower in Boston will get underway, creating a wave of thousand footers down the east coast.

I'm still a bit on the fence on 115 Winthrop:



It's putting two great ideas together in a way that doesn't merge 100%.

[Don098]

Ok um, Philadelphia please?

[volguus zildrohar]

For comparison's sake, friend. How many dozens have gone by the wayside in P7?