2 new power centres for Hamilton!!!!

[flar]

Toronto has to fight this stuff too. Leslieville is an old neighbourhood with a commercial strip along Queen East just coming back to life, now Smart Centres and Wal-Mart have their eyes on it.

Leslieville mall not 'big-box' project, developers say

JAMES RUSK

March 29, 2008

The bloodiest development battle being waged in Toronto involves a proposal to build a $220-million shopping mall on the south edge of Leslieville, an older east-end neighbourhood.

But amid the noise and dust of the battle over the 7.5-hectare site, now used by a film studio, both the nature of the proposed project and the legal gauntlet it has been forced to run at City Hall have been obscured, the backers believe.

This week at a press conference at City Hall, Kelly Carmichael of the East Toronto Community Coalition used the phrase "big-box" to describe the project, evoking a picture of large, free-standing stores surrounded by acres of parking.

But the 700,000-square-foot Shops of Leslieville is not a big-box development, Tom Smith, vice-president of development at SmartCentres, said in an interview. SmartCentres is the project's developer.

Plans the company has submitted to the Ontario Municipal Board, where the fight has ended up, show a red-brick, two- or three-storey, mixed-use development on the east side of Pape Avenue between Eastern Avenue and Lake Shore Boulevard, with two sets of buildings divided by a pedestrian mall.

The parking for 1,900 cars - half what's normally required by the city for a project its size - would not be visible from either Eastern or Lakeshore.

Store sizes would range from 2,000 to about 130,000 square feet, the largest being half the size of a standard Wal-Mart store in Ontario.

Wal-Mart is rumoured to be the major tenant, but Mr. Smith said no lease has been signed with any anchor store.

The image of the project as a classic big-box site remained throughout this week's news conference, at which letters of opposition by architects Daniel Liebeskind, Jack Diamond and Ken Greenberg were unveiled and at which former mayor David Crombie spoke out.

Likening the dispute to the fight over the Spadina Expressway, which was stopped by the provincial government, Mr. Crombie said he supported a council request that Queen's Park express a provincial interest in the project before the May 20 OMB hearing.

One of the legal ironies noted by the developer is that the use of the site for large-scale retail development was approved by city council in 2002, when it voted on the city's postamalgamation official plan.

[raisethehammer]

Smart Centres is the trashiest blight on the urban landscape possibly ever in Canada's history.

[realcity]

Go Toronto... show us how to build a city. It will be a change from the inspirational dreaming our city leaders get from Burlington, Cambridge and Mississauga.

[matt602]

Toronto certainly has their act together on urban planning and heritage. Hamilton can learn a thing or two.

[fastcarsfreedom]

If you view Toronto as an "island" unto itself, your argument may hold some water--but this city of "brilliance" in urban planning is also surrounded by places like Mississauga, Brampton, Vaughan, Ajax, etc. Secondly, comparing Hamilton--which thanks to annexation has large tracts of undeveloped land--with Toronto which is otherwise completely built-out and landlocked, is comparing too completely unlike entities.

I would argue this Leslieview fight is one that's actually based on "hysteria"--I'm not reopening old arguments--but if this was anyone other than SmartCenters and any one other than Wal*Mart, we wouldnt be hearing this clamouring. From the west side of Etobicoke to the east side of Scarborough--Toronto is teeming with suburban style developments, strip malls, big box stores, etc.

Again, I am completely puzzled by what I read here. In one thread Hamilton is coming back to life, downtown is starting the thrive--and on another the city is being strangled by sprawl--what's the reality? What's your reality? Clearly downtown can make it on it's own--which begs the question--what's the agenda here--saving downtown, or fighting suburban growth?

[raisethehammer]

both.

[Berklon]

The truth is people like these power centres and will shop there. I know people who live very close to the Heritage Green area and they're very happy about this new development. In fact, I don't think I know anyone who hates these things - despite where they live, be it Toronto, Oakville, Burlington, etc. The idea of one-stop shopping is good to most people, regardless of how it contributes to sprawl. Certainly if there's money to be made, developers/retailers are going to do what they can to make it.

[raisethehammer]

one-stop shopping??? that's what malls were supposed to be. how is making 8 car trips to 8 different stores considered 'one-stop'?

[HAMRetrofit]

I am seeing a lot of stupid bullshit being posted about this development. Lets think about the positioning of this site. It is at the top of largest urban expressway project built since the 1960s. The site is extremely visible and will be the signal of what is to come from Hamilton. It will signal the future direction the city is headed. The type of land use that must be placed there is a major industrial tenant. There are no substitutes, it should be a major robotics firm, or an assembly plant, or even a slaughter house. Everything possible to attract this anchor including large provincial subsidies should be attempted. If big box locates there you might as well piss away future economic prosperity generated from the expressway.

[raisethehammer]

yup, I'm with you 100% retrofit. This is the absolute worst development that could go here. I was at a friends place out there the other day and was coming onto the Linc from the 'Stonechurch' ramp. The ramp is really high in the air and as you round it you are right over a sea of townhomes. As I rounded the ramp I thought 'here we go again'. Just like the friggin Meadowlands and 403 extention through Ancaster. We spend billions on the these roadways and instead of lining them with industrial plants, mixed use buildings, office parks and mega-tax revenue, we piss the investment away just to keep the election donations rolling in from the Losani/Desantis' of the world. Such a friggin waste of money. Anyone who was a die-hard supporter of Red Hill should be outraged. They won't be though. They were lied to for the past decade and simply don't care. All they care about is shaving 7 minutes off their trip to Toronto.
by the way, at the top of this same ramp from Stonechurch is where this 'big box' shite is going...the view at the start of this ramp will be just like the 403 in Hamcaster - a stunning vista of the BACK of Home Depot. Brutal. We've had more shovel ready land opened up in this city in the past decade than most cities could dream of. And we've wasted ALL OF IT on bullcrap like this. When will these deadbeat Hamiltonians wake up and realize that our money is being screwed with and wasted.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

one-stop shopping??? that's what malls were supposed to be. how is making 8 car trips to 8 different stores considered 'one-stop'?

It's one-stop in the way that it's all in the same complex. Sometimes they have to drive from one parking spot to another because they're too lazy to walk - but in their minds it beats going to different parts of the city to get what they need. If people didn't like them, they wouldn't be going to them.

Like you - I'm not a fan of these things, but we're in the minority.

[fastcarsfreedom]

At least we got the official word that this Forum is intended to have an agenda. Mental note taken.

[raisethehammer]

yea, scold us all for holding our politicians to their word and not wanting them to continually waste our tax money. I presume you (fastcars) are a pro-Red Hill person. You should be more outraged than anyone that the stated goal of this project - jobs, jobs, jobs - has suddenly disappeared from the landscape in a sea of homes and boxes. Mind you, you don't live here, so you don't need to worry about our skyrocketing taxes and dwindling tax base as we continually waste our 'shovel-ready' land on this debt-producing bull crap.

[HAMRetrofit]

and Red Hill was built without an agenda?

If Hamilton can't grow its economy it should not be expanding in an outward fashion. We (the Ontario public) are not here to line the pockets of outrageous developments that basically shit all over credible land use planning. The old city of Hamilton is already shedding population, developments like this are not going to help invert this trend at all. We don't need to burden ourselves with a new hole in our pocket.

[fastcarsfreedom]

There is no scolding going on, none whatsoever. I have made no secret at all of my support of Red Hill (and, I will add, Mid-Pen also). As for the shovel ready lands--and what land use is appropriate--you can check out my statements regarding retail in the Innovation District to see that I can be quite balanced in my take on these issues. What separates us opinion-wise, is that I am not ready to pour gasoline over my head and running screaming in the streets over retail and residential development. I do believe Hamilton absolutely needs to be more strategic when it comes to Economic Development as it relates to so-called "Job Lands"--I believe Innovation Park & District area a good start. Nonetheless, I can refer to other threads inclusive in this very forum that are quite clear when it comes to opinions on the sorts of developments in places like Mississauga and Brampton--ostensibly the types of developments that you apparently favor for these lands now. Secondly--how do you feel about development on these lands if it comes at the expense of downtown?

What I bring to this Forum as a resident of a municipality outside of Hamilton is varied perspective. A municipal freeway was built across the southern part of Windsor in the 1970s--it opened up huge tracts of shovel-ready land which were given almost exclusively to light/medium industrial uses and office parks...excellent, right? Well, what developments are now decried for the impact they had on the employment base downtown? You guessed it. It would be great if manufacturing was growing on this continent--but it t'aint--and that makes marketing industrial lands...let's say "marginally" more difficult. The fact that I care about the city I was born in is exclusive of the fact that I don't live there and don't pay taxes there. I think it's regrettable that taxes are increasing in Hamilton--as I think it's regrettable that they are increasing here. Remember, infrastructure repair is expensive--and Hamilton is an aging city--frankly speaking, it has old pipes...and that costs the same way new roads cost. All those folks moving into Heritage Green--they will pay for the old watermains under the Lower City the same way you'll pay for upgrades to their streets.

Is the "former" city of Hamilton actually shedding population, or is it more-or-less stagnant? I can't actually recall how the numbers bore out in the most recent census.

[realcity]

Originally Posted by Berklon

It's one-stop in the way that it's all in the same complex. Sometimes they have to drive from one parking spot to another because they're too lazy to walk - but in their minds it beats going to different parts of the city to get what they need. If people didn't like them, they wouldn't be going to them.

Like you - I'm not a fan of these things, but we're in the minority.

this is bullcrap. Every retail development claims this. Malls and dense shopping districts like Ottawa, Downtown Concession and even when Barton Street was full are more "one-stop shopping" then Power Centers are.

I guess I'll never have to use the RedHill highway for anything, even tho I paid for it. It's a shame It'll never provide myself employment opportunity or a future client, or my children's chance of finding a good paying job in Hamilton.

[realcity]

Toronto is only 416 BTW...

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by realcity

this is bullcrap. Every retail development claims this. Malls and dense shopping districts like Ottawa, Downtown Concession and even when Barton Street was full are more "one-stop shopping" then Power Centers are.

They why do people flock to these power centres? And why am I hearing people state they're happy that they'll be able to do all their shopping at the Heritage Green? You can call anything you want bullcrap, but people are voting with their wallets.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Indeed Toronto is only 416--and when the going was good and there was plenty of open land in Scarborough, Etobicoke, North York, etc, they were building tract housing, strip plazas, malls and parking lots like crazy. I stand by my claim that it is the presence of Wal*Mart and Smart!Centres that is the primary motivator behind the protests. To the best of my knowledge the redevelopment of the old Don Mills Centre site hasn't been fought with this much fervor--and though I haven't seen the Smart!Centres proposal--it certainly doesn't sound much different than the Shops at Don Mills--which Cadillac-Fairview is doing and is essentially one of these hybrid outdoor/big box/small box "lifestyle centres".

It is a shame you will never have to/get to use the Red Hill--please see my previous statements/posts about taxation. It's called give and take, and it's been 'enhanced' by amalgamation--I grew up in an area where I didnt have a hope in hell of using the HSR--same difference.

I'd also like some further elaboration on the whole issue of your children's ability or inability to find well-paid jobs in the City. Is this a serious statement or hyberbole? I am assuming you are intending for your children to be educated, so I fail to see your point. I understand you're passionate about this issues--but this isn't suddenly Elliot Lake. If what you mean is that your children won't be able to graduate (or not) from high school and walk over to Firestone, Dominion Glass, Westinghouse or International Harvester--then you are correct--and no amount of "shovel ready" land is going to solve that problem--that era has come and gone.

[zaphod]

In some ways this kind of retail accomodates a different kind of need that isn't being filled. Many other cities are absolutely saturated by this kind of retail and also traditional malls but there is nothing slowing urban infill and lifestyle centers from popping up all over the place. The transitionary period when big boxes first appeared and killed mom and pop stores may not be forever as each side is going it's own way and appeals to a different kind of shopper.

Personally I go to both.