The most dangerous cities in Canada - A Maclean's exclusive

[Only The Lonely..]

Originally Posted by Spocket

It should be obvious to anybody with a set of eyes that aboriginals commit more crime on average. That's not the same thing as saying that if you're aboriginal you must be a criminal. Let's face it, we all also happen to have a pretty good idea of WHY aboriginals commit more crime and we also know who's to blame. So, instead of sugar coating everything to ensure that nobody feels offended by facts, let's just face them and deal with it.

And before anybody tries to label me a racist or bigot I'll point out that right now I have a friend staying with me until he can find his own place (it ain't easy to find the right place for your needs these days unless you have an unlimited cash flow) He also happens to be visibly aboriginal.

LordMandeep has the right attitude and I wish I heard it more often . "I am CANDADIAN" I'm sick of hearing people describe themselves as hyphenated Canadians.

I totally agree. A walk through Headingly or Stony will affirm that there is a correlation between the Aboriginal population and urban crime rates.

It's not surprinsing that the four large urban centres on the MacLeans list (Regina, Saskatoon, Winnipeg and Edmonton) all have fairly high crime rates. They also have relatively large aboriginal populations.

This subset of the population clearly needs help, but if you try bringing this up as a white man your labelled a racist.

If you ask me, the Aboriginal leadership (tribal chiefs etc) have an important role to play here. Unfortunately, I have yet to hear of any kind of economic vision from these leaders.

Its too bad that our city can't have an honest discussion about the economic divide between Aborginals and Whites without it degenerating into accusations of racism by the more politically correct.

Winnipeg's future is directly tied to the well being of First Nations people.

This is probably the most important discussion our community can have.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by Only The Lonely..

Another pointless survey to make smug asswipes in Toronto feel good about themselves.

This is why I never read MacLeans. It's basically the Ontario digest.

Calgary (which, last I checked, was the biggest city in the West and thus probably not in Ontario) ranked better than the two biggest cities in the East. And MacLeans has changed quite drastically in the last few years. Ever since Kenneth Whyte (an Albertan) took over, it has essentially become the mouthpiece of far-right conservatism in Canada. Not exactly the Ontario Digest anymore.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by Only The Lonely..

I totally agree. A walk through Headingly or Stony will affirm that there is a correlation between the Aboriginal population and urban crime rates.

It's not surprinsing that the four large urban centres on the MacLeans list (Regina, Saskatoon, Winnipeg and Edmonton) all have fairly high crime rates. They also have relatively large aboriginal populations.

This subset of the population clearly needs help, but if you try bringing this up as a white man your labelled a racist.

If you ask me, the Aboriginal leadership (tribal chiefs etc) have an important role to play here. Unfortunately, I have yet to hear of any kind of economic vision from these leaders.

Its too bad that our city can't have an honest discussion about the economic divide between Aborginals and Whites without it degenerating into accusations of racism by the more politically correct.

Winnipeg's future is directly tied to the well being of First Nations people.

This is probably the most important discussion our community can have.

Like I said in another thread, everyone should do themselves a favour and google Chief Clarence Louie. This man's word needs to be heard IMO.

http://www.naaf.ca/html/c_louis_e.html

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl.../National/home

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.c...=M1ARTM0013137

[Only The Lonely..]

Originally Posted by theman23

Calgary (which, last I checked, was the biggest city in the West and thus probably not in Ontario) ranked better than the two biggest cities in the East. And MacLeans has changed quite drastically in the last few years. Ever since Kenneth Whyte (an Albertan) took over, it has essentially become the mouthpiece of far-right conservatism in Canada. Not exactly the Ontario Digest anymore.

I don't know, today its cities tomorrow its university rankings. Toronto is apparently perfect.

We're lucky to have such a magnificent social utopia in our own backyard.

[CCF]

There are universities outside of Ontario?

[LordMandeep]

LordMandeep has the right attitude and I wish I heard it more often . "I am CANDADIAN" I'm sick of hearing people describe themselves as hyphenated Canadians.

even though I am proud to be Canadian I still value and respect my parents traditions and values and can speak their language.

However imo I have noticed here in Canada, certain groups(I will not name groups) believe that if they work hard you are rewarded. Other groups are very cynically and believe no matter how hard you work, you cannot succeed.

The truth i have found out, is that simply there are certain forces holding certain groups back, but they can be overcome with some work.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by Only The Lonely..

I don't know, today its cities tomorrow its university rankings. Toronto is apparently perfect.

We're lucky to have such a magnificent social utopia in our own backyard.

Did you completely miss the part where Calgary was ranked better? Or that most of the current columnists at Macleans are so far right-wing that they probably abhor everything that Toronto stands for? Or that not a single Toronto university even ranks in McGill's top 3? Or maybe you would have preferred a ranking where they simply fudged the numbers with your city, just pretended that a few of those murders never occurred? I'm sure if we look hard enough, we'll find that they were never really killed in the first place! I have a feeling you don't have any problem with their methodology, you just don't like the results.

You know, this whole pseudo-persecution complex you have stops being cute when it has absolutely no grounding in reality.

Originally Posted by CCF

There are universities outside of Ontario?

No. Except for in Regina, which I believe has the highest concentration of Dentistry schools on the planet! And some said market-driven schools would never work! Pshaw. You guys sure showed them!

[Only The Lonely..]

Originally Posted by theman23

Did you completely miss the part where Calgary was ranked better? Or that most of the current columnists at Macleans are so far right-wing that they probably abhor everything that Toronto stands for? Or that not a single Toronto university even ranks in McGill's top 3? Or maybe you would have preferred a ranking where they simply fudged the numbers with your city, just pretended that a few of those murders never occurred? I'm sure if we look hard enough, we'll find that they were never really killed in the first place! I have a feeling you don't have any problem with their methodology, you just don't like the results.

You know, this whole pseudo-persecution complex you have stops being cute when it has absolutely no grounding in reality.



No. Except for in Regina, which I believe has the highest concentration of Dentistry schools on the planet! And some said market-driven schools would never work! Pshaw. You guys sure showed them!

Whoa! Take it easy there partner.


If you were from Manitoba or Saskatchewan you would be down in the dumps too. MacLeans usually doesn't offer too my articles in praise of Winnipeg, Saskatoon or Regina.

In my humble opinion, the article is grossly over sensationalized to say the least. They make Regina sound like Watts. Truth be known, more people get killed in Detroit on a long weekend then they do in Winnipeg for a whole year.

It's hardly as if Winnipeg and Regina are Sodom and Gomorrah.

Yes Calgary made the list of 'safe' cities, but it is because of its relative affluence and low aboriginal population.

Articles like these only make it harder for cities like Winnipeg to regain the confidence of outside investors.

How are we supposed to improve our economic condition when every businessman across the country thinks Winnipeg is a warzone?

As Andy pointed out, violent crime in this city is mostly between people who are known to each other.

I.e) two guys get into a scuffle in a crack den and one gets knifed.

It's hardly as if there are masked marksmen picking people off at random from on top of the Canwest tower.

[al2six]

Originally Posted by Only The Lonely..

Truth be known, more people get killed in Detroit on a long weekend then they do in Winnipeg for a whole year.

so true. that would mean about 30 people a weekend in detroit. comes out to roughly 5500 murders a year. maybe just a wee bit of an exageration?

[vid]

A wee bit. I believe the actual number is 800? Not bad for a city of 900,000 people.

(Wait, it's 890,000 now..)

[Spocket]

Detroit's total for homicide in 2005 was 439. That's for the Detroit MSA. Of those , 354 were committed within Detroit proper.
As per : http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_06.html

It may be an exaggeration but it's not too far off the mark.

[al2six]

well i don't want to change the subject of this thread to detroit, so i'll make this one last post and leave it at that.

my point wasn't that detroit is a paradise and no one gets killed. but exagerating that 30 people get killed there every weekend is ridiculous. you've over estimated by nearly 14x. if we over estimated winnipeg's murders by 14x, it would be about 420. i'm sure if someone was posting that over 400 people a year are killed in winnipeg, people familar with the city would be saying "what the heck are you talking about, thats way off the mark!"

point is, i find it disturbing when someone exagerates a troubled city's problems. doing this further hurts the public's perception of that city, giving it a poorer image than it deserves. that bad image only perpetuates the problems that city is already experiencing by discouraging individuals, families and business from entering the area. you should be rallying behind these cities, not kicking them when they're down, because a city is not some lifeless entity. it is children, single mothers, families, retirees, etc. The people that make up these troubled cities have a tough job ahead of them to bring their cities back to where they need to be. why make it any harder on them by further tarnishing their reputation?

it's ok to talk frankly about the problems a city faces, but please, lets not make ourselves feel better about our own cities by pissing on another. now lets get back to talking about crime in canada

[Greco Roman]

Originally Posted by al2six

well i don't want to change the subject of this thread to detroit, so i'll make this one last post and leave it at that.

my point wasn't that detroit is a paradise and no one gets killed. but exagerating that 30 people get killed there every weekend is ridiculous. you've over estimated by nearly 14x. if we over estimated winnipeg's murders by 14x, it would be about 420. i'm sure if someone was posting that over 400 people a year are killed in winnipeg, people familar with the city would be saying "what the heck are you talking about, thats way off the mark!"

point is, i find it disturbing when someone exagerates a troubled city's problems. doing this further hurts the public's perception of that city, giving it a poorer image than it deserves. that bad image only perpetuates the problems that city is already experiencing by discouraging individuals, families and business from entering the area. you should be rallying behind these cities, not kicking them when they're down, because a city is not some lifeless entity. it is children, single mothers, families, retirees, etc. The people that make up these troubled cities have a tough job ahead of them to bring their cities back to where they need to be. why make it any harder on them by further tarnishing their reputation?

it's ok to talk frankly about the problems a city faces, but please, lets not make ourselves feel better about our own cities by pissing on another. now lets get back to talking about crime in canada

Man, I wish this could be posted in the Calgary section

[Only The Lonely..]

Originally Posted by al2six

well i don't want to change the subject of this thread to detroit, so i'll make this one last post and leave it at that.

my point wasn't that detroit is a paradise and no one gets killed. but exagerating that 30 people get killed there every weekend is ridiculous. you've over estimated by nearly 14x. if we over estimated winnipeg's murders by 14x, it would be about 420. i'm sure if someone was posting that over 400 people a year are killed in winnipeg, people familar with the city would be saying "what the heck are you talking about, thats way off the mark!"

point is, i find it disturbing when someone exagerates a troubled city's problems. doing this further hurts the public's perception of that city, giving it a poorer image than it deserves. that bad image only perpetuates the problems that city is already experiencing by discouraging individuals, families and business from entering the area. you should be rallying behind these cities, not kicking them when they're down, because a city is not some lifeless entity. it is children, single mothers, families, retirees, etc. The people that make up these troubled cities have a tough job ahead of them to bring their cities back to where they need to be. why make it any harder on them by further tarnishing their reputation?

it's ok to talk frankly about the problems a city faces, but please, lets not make ourselves feel better about our own cities by pissing on another. now lets get back to talking about crime in canada

Agreed. However, it seems perfectly acceptable, nay, understood and sometimes even celebrated by other Canadians that Winnipeg is some barren wasteland over run by gangs and urban decay.

It seems to me at least, that MacLean’s did to Winnipeg exactly what I did to Detroit in my last post (for which I apologize). That is kicking a city when it’s down to make cocksucker Torontonians in their half million dollar Bloor St Lofts feel good about themselves.

The truth is Toronto has a little area called Regent Park that makes anything the North End has to offer look like Disneyworld.

MacLeans has never been a relevent magazine to me, and as a vanguard of national opinion I find it does a very poor job.

[ssiguy]

Back on topic....

One has to put these stats as the way a statistian would view them.
Crime rates will always flucuate so that is the reason you should not look at these numbers in isolation.
Winnipeg/Reg/Sask may go back and forth on which city has the higher crime rate but doesn't mean one is now safer than the other over all.

You take stats over a period of time. Win/Reg/Sask have been at the top of the list for nearly the last decade so it is safe to say that they are more dangerous than London, St.John's, or Quebec City. If Winnipeg were to have 3 consecutive years of lower crime rates than you can say with confidence that it is getting safer on the long term.

Also looking at year to year stats for smaller cities is even more problematic for year to year comparisons. If a small city were to have no murders one year and then had 5 the next year due to one individula nutcase that doesn't mean all of a sudden you are five times more likely to get killed in that city.

Year after year Calgary has a significantly lower crime rate than Edmonton so it is safe to say it is a safer city to be in. This is the same as saying that Western Canada is crime ridden than the East.

Stats should be viewed over a 3 year period to see what is really going on in the crime rate of their city.

[DAVEinEDMONTON]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Year after year Calgary has a significantly lower crime rate than Edmonton so it is safe to say it is a safer city to be in. This is the same as saying that Western Canada is crime ridden than the East.

Stats should be viewed over a 3 year period to see what is really going on in the crime rate of their city.

I think the method of collecting these stats is always flawed. Edmonton will always have a worse crime rate when you do not include some of its more affluent neighborhoods just because of city borders. For example, St. Albert which is a very affluent city as compared to Edmonton it is right next door and it was the 9th safest city on the list. How can that be? Edmonton is the top 10 worst and a city right next door is in the top 10 best? I think if you averaged out the stats for the metro Edmonton region versus just the city of Edmonton proper you would get similar results to Calgary. And yes, Edmonton's results would still probably be worse but not to a great extent.

I do agree that you need to look at the long term impact of such stats. It would be nice to see what the long term trends are. And with the smaller cities, it does not take much to skew the results if, say, a drug turf war erupts in a given year causing extra criminal related activity.

[psych1]

Originally Posted by Only The Lonely..

Agreed. However, it seems perfectly acceptable, nay, understood and sometimes even celebrated by other Canadians that Winnipeg is some barren wasteland over run by gangs and urban decay.

Indeed, here in Saskatoon, we just had a party to celebrate the high rate of crime in Winnipeg, but it was unfortunately interupted by a stabbing.

These Macleans lists are not too much to get excited about and anyone with even the most basic understanding of social sciences, can see immense flaws in them. However, it wouldn't hurt to make your points (perhaps slightly less aggresively) in a letter to the editor.

[Greco Roman]

Originally Posted by psych1

Indeed, here in Saskatoon, we just had a party to celebrate the high rate of crime in Winnipeg, but it was unfortunately interupted by a stabbing.

Apparently it's a conversation piece out in Calgary too, as it is mention how Winnipeg is the third most dangerous (but THE most dangerous major) city in Canada, while celebrating that they are Canada's third least dangerous city in their own thread in the Alberta section

[ILYR]

Too bad there wasn't a study on white collar crime (embezzlement, fraud, insider trading etc). Now that would be an interesting study. I wonder which cities would be at the top?

[midnightrambler]

I read the full Mclean's article, and honestly I do not give much creedence to the stats.

For instance say there is 8 murders in Regina in a given year, for simple purposes that is 4 for every 100,000 people which is double the national average.

Say Toronto has 100 that is 2 for every 100,000 people, ie the national average.

The stats don't really make any sense because if Regina had 4 murders instead of 8 and Toronto had 50 instead of a hundred, Regina would still be double the national average.

Safety and stats really have no correlation when compared to cities 25 times the size.

Put it this way, I wouldn't like to walk around riversdale at 3 in the morning, nor would I enjoy walking around 'the jungle' in Toronto. Where am I more safe? Does it really matter? I'd say you have a decent chance of running into some shit in either place.

On the flip side I could comfortably walk around at 3 in the morning in the burbs... The label 'most dangerous city' doesn't fit, because I am willing to bet a good portion if not 80-90% happened in the same neighbourhoods throughout the country.