Sacramento Proposal/Approval/Construction Thread - III

[econgrad]

I have been hearing from out of towners who visit our Downtown, and from 4 different people, the same opinion: The Sidewalks in Sacramento are too narrow for high foot traffic. I just returned from Santa Cruz, CA. Their downtown has 10 to 12 feet wide sidewalks in their Downtown, enough room for street musicians (thats what I did yesterday) and people walking around. It is ludicrous that a small town like Santa Cruz has a bustling (4 streets) core with people walking around and events, and our's is still struggling. Also, I found three (3) inner urban Lofts projects rising out from Santa Cruz's downtown. They can do it bigger, I do not understand why our city struggles. Vote this city council out! I saw more foot traffic in Downtown Santa Cruz in one day than I see in Downtown Sacramento in one week.

[Majin]

^^ I've been saying that for years but no one listens to me.

[innov8]

The reason no one listens is because of the cost. I believe the cost to replace
each corner with handicap accessible ramps was $5000 each... can you imagine
the cost to replace the whole thing? I'm sure the city would also ask property
owners to pay 50/50 on the costs too.

[wburg]

Downtown Sacramento already has 10-12 foot wide sidewalks, at least through the central business district (I/J/K/L). I just walked outside and measured 'em. Want to prove me wrong? Whip out your tape measure and show me the photos.

innov8: Sidewalks are considered to be the property of the owner of the land, although they're also public right-of-way. When the city tells you to replace your sidewalks, the landowner pays 100% of the cost. The city offering to pay 50% would be an act of immense generosity on the city's part.

Assuming thats 10-12 feet isn't wide enough, econgrad, how do you recommend we widen them? Take a lane of traffic out of the existing streets, or demolish every street-facing building downtown in order to give a wider setback?

[Majin]

That's a cop out, other smaller cities that get way less revennue have bigger sidewalks. The problem here isn't the fact that the city doesn't have money, it's the fact that they don't invest it in the right places.

When the boom was here, how much money was spent on Natomas vs K street/Central City?

[Majin]

Originally Posted by wburg

Downtown Sacramento already has 10-12 foot wide sidewalks, at least through the central business district (I/J/K/L). I just walked outside and measured 'em. Want to prove me wrong? Whip out your tape measure and show me the photos.

innov8: Sidewalks are considered to be the property of the owner of the land, although they're also public right-of-way. When the city tells you to replace your sidewalks, the landowner pays 100% of the cost. The city offering to pay 50% would be an act of immense generosity on the city's part.

Assuming thats 10-12 feet isn't wide enough, econgrad, how do you recommend we widen them? Take a lane of traffic out of the existing streets, or demolish every street-facing building downtown in order to give a wider setback?

Outside the CDB, especially in the busy areas of Midtown what needs to happen is they get rid of the planter strips and go full concrete. They also need to put up their own money on fixing the sidewalks instead of relying on property owners (again, look at K street, whats Moe Mohanna done to fix his properties lately?). If the city is serious they need to put their money where their mouth is and start investing or else things will never improve.

[wburg]

Majin, you really seem to be convinced that the city can just come up with as much money as it wants, whenever it wants. Where do you think the city gets this money? They certainly don't print it up downstairs at city hall! The city budget comes from property taxes, fines and fees the city charges--in other words, we pay it. In order to spend lots more money on the many fun things you are suggesting for it, they need to charge more money--raise taxes.

As part of your Majin 2020 campaign, in addition to your bold proposal to wipe out all of the street trees in the central city with your sidewalk-expansion campaign, do you also suggest a huge tax increase?

[ozone]

Seriously guys why are we are now debating the width of our sidewalks.. WTF?

[wburg]

Originally Posted by ozone

Seriously guys why are we are now debating the width of our sidewalks.. WTF?

Because we all get along so well, and there are so few other subjects worth debating these days, I guess?

You are right, though...this discussion has pretty much reached the "WTF" point.

Anyhow, before the sidewalk sidetrack, Econgrad was talking about Santa Cruz. Now, comparing Santa Cruz to Sacramento is kind of apples & oranges. Santa Cruz is a small resort city of about 60,000 people. It is mostly known for its boardwalk, beaches, nearby schools, generally really good weather, and mountain scenery.

Downtown Santa Cruz draws a lot of tourists from all over, especially the Bay Area. It has been a while since I was in Santa Cruz (one overnight trip in 1995 was the last time I was there) so I'll try not to make too many assumptions. But, so far as I know, Santa Cruz isn't an old-core industrial city, and it doesn't have suburbs where the bulk of the people who work downtown moved to over the past half-century. I will also make the assumption that Santa Cruz never had a redevelopment project that kicked 75% of the population out of its downtown. Finally, I'm pretty sure that Santa Cruz doesn't have a six-lane interstate freeway running in between its main tourist attractions and the rest of its downtown.

[uzi963]

On a different subject:

msnbc's Top 10 Underrated US cities.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18024681/

at least we made the list.

[innov8]

Originally Posted by uzi963

On a different subject:

msnbc's Top 10 Underrated US cities.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18024681/

at least we made the list.

Newsweek did one of these in 88' or 89' and Sacramento was ranked 10
right behind Providence Rhode Island. Not much has changed

[econgrad]

Originally Posted by wburg

Downtown Sacramento already has 10-12 foot wide sidewalks, at least through the central business district (I/J/K/L). I just walked outside and measured 'em. Want to prove me wrong? Whip out your tape measure and show me the photos.

innov8: Sidewalks are considered to be the property of the owner of the land, although they're also public right-of-way. When the city tells you to replace your sidewalks, the landowner pays 100% of the cost. The city offering to pay 50% would be an act of immense generosity on the city's part.

Assuming thats 10-12 feet isn't wide enough, econgrad, how do you recommend we widen them? Take a lane of traffic out of the existing streets, or demolish every street-facing building downtown in order to give a wider setback?

Wburg, go to DT Santa Cruz and see the difference. Its pathetic that Sacramento has no bustling fun streets to walk around, with wide sidewalks with room for pedestrians and street musicians and jugglers and artists, there is nothing like that here. Absolutely nothing, Folsom is the closest thing to it. And your comparison of Santa Cruz being a resort city has nothing to do with this, my point is people like you want a walkable city, it isn't that walkable with the sidewalks we have. The city really messed up. People like you should be just as disgusted as I am, if anything is going to change in future developments. Instead of defending the mistakes and defending the city's status quo of being mediocre. Ozone, cry all you want. This is a forum, we can talk about killer monkeys from mars invading Davis if we want to...

[wburg]

Originally Posted by econgrad

Wburg, go to DT Santa Cruz and see the difference. Its pathetic that Sacramento has no bustling fun streets to walk around, with wide sidewalks with room for pedestrians and street musicians and jugglers and artists, there is nothing like that here. Absolutely nothing, Folsom is the closest thing to it. And your comparison of Santa Cruz being a resort city has nothing to do with this, my point is people like you want a walkable city, it isn't that walkable with the sidewalks we have. The city really messed up. People like you should be just as disgusted as I am, if anything is going to change in future developments. Instead of defending the mistakes and defending the city's status quo of being mediocre. Ozone, cry all you want. This is a forum, we can talk about killer monkeys from mars invading Davis if we want to...

Downtown Sacramento's streets are pretty darn walkable the way they are--I know, I walk them all the time.

Santa Cruz as a resort city has everything to do with this, because the main reason wy there are jugglers and artists on the street in Santa Cruz is because they are a resort city. There are jugglers and clowns and musicians on the streets in Old Sacramento, especially when the weather's good or on holiday weekends, and the street gets pretty crowded. They, and the tourists they are there to entertain, generally don't wander any farther than Old Sacramento because Interstate 5 acts as a massive physical and mental barrier.

On the other side of that barrier is the working part of downtown Sacramento, the one based on the often-boring business of government, law, banking, and all those other mysterious activities that guys in suits perform. Because these people live in the suburbs, a pattern established in just about every major city in the United States since the 1950s, the vast majority of these guys in suits leave downtown at 5:00 PM. And because downtown Sacramento is set up for their needs, rather than entirely as a tourist attraction, there is little demand for jugglers on the street. I realize you don't see the central city as anything but a playground, econgrad, but some of us actually do work and live here.

[seinar]

I think what econgrad was saying is that Santa Cruz has more activity on their sidewalks. Sure they are a resort town, but the point is that if Sacramento wants to have activity on its streets after dark or whenever, then wider sidewalks might be the way to go. I work in midtown, near Marrs, after dark, there is very little foot traffic, except for Streets of London. I dont think having jugglers on the streets is the point. Its having a vibrant downtown area full of activity where people would want to hang out after work and on the weekends, and santa cruz helps that happen by having wider sidewalks. Besides, why cant sacramento be a city where people from all over would want to come and visit (i.e. a resort town). Nobody I know from the Bay Area comes here to visit.

[seinar]

Maybe the Railyards can have an area that is Santa Cruz-eque. That might help draw visitors, not just a place to live and work, but to play as well.

[wburg]

Well, it should be mentioned that I play downtown too. Tonight I'm having trouble deciding if I should go to the movie premiere at the Crest or a ten-band music festival near Broadway.

The area near Marrs gets quite a bit of foot traffic--20th and K is pretty much foot-traffic city, even on weeknights. It's not like street traffic in downtown Bangladesh, but there are a lot of people out there.

Wider sidewalks has pretty much nothing to do with it.

There are a lot simpler ways to promote downtown nightlife: greatly reduce restrictions on entertainment permits, allow street music every night instead of just Second Saturday, allow all-ages music venues to operate, permit street vendors and food carts to a much greater extent, just to name a few.

Try coming out on Second Saturday and you'll see what Sacramento street life could be like every weekend, if only it was allowed to occur! Our sidewalk widths seem just fine, they're crowded solely because there are a lot of people out on them--and that's the objective, right?

As we see on the K Street Mall, continuous demolition and reconstruction and "beautifying" projects don't draw foot traffic, they chase it away.

People from the Bay Area don't come here to visit because there's still more to do in San Francisco, and almost certainly always will be. Plus, most Bay Areans still think Sacramento is a truck stop and a Wal-Mart by the highway.

The point is that we aren't a resort town like Santa Cruz. We lack an ocean, for starters, and our weather gets cruddy sometimes. We aren't a cultural mecca like San Francisco, but then no other place on the surface of the Earth is like San Francisco, and there is little point to trying. This doesn't mean that we can't have nightlife and a place to play--but we have obstacles to cross that a city like Santa Cruz simply doesn't have to deal with.

Our goal should be to try being more like Sacramento. Focus on promoting the great local culture, unlock its potential in simple, cost-effective ways, instead of wasting time and money on expensive prestige projects. Bring life back to the central city by encouraging residential projects in infill areas that are accessible across the economic spectrum--it's the college kids and young adults, who aren't necessarily wealthy, who make a city hum with activity. By placing job centers near those residences, you keep people in a place where work and home are in close proximity--thus increasing the chances that they'll also stay close to play.

[ozone]

What we need is a good old fashioned earthquake to destroy our downtown so we can remake it with doublewide sidewalks. Then the sidewalks can look even more empty after 5pm and on the weekends.

[ltsmotorsport]

Originally Posted by ozone

Then the sidewalks can look even more empty after 5pm and on the weekends.

[TowerDistrict]

Yeah i just hit up the Crest where there were lines down the sidewalk to get in.
There was a huge line outside on Azukar, Parlare had about 15 people just
downstairs. Streets of London was crowded and there was a dude playing
the sax out front. Kinda bummed I'm missing the Sound Art Fest down the
street, but my slippers and a bottle of scotch were calling. Besides, tomorrow
is the Art Walk and I'll bet there's gonna be a good turn out. But I gotta
miss that cause I'm dining at 55 Degrees then hitting up the Broadway
show, Putnam County Spelling Bee.

like you all give a shit

There's no shortage of stuff going on in this town, but I do get what econgrad
is getting at too. I've heard retailers in Midtown complain about the City
being very stringent on street festivals, and we all know that music venues
have faced problems with noise and crowd controls.

So I do think the City can do more to foster an environment that brings
more people to the streets. I also think that it's a good thing to identify cool
stuff happening in other cities and bring that vibe to your hometown. It
doesn't have to mean that you think your city is lacking - rather consider
this is a very cosmopolitan city with varied interests... it's good to mix it up
and try on a few different pairs of shoes.

[wburg]

TD: Did you catch "Why Lie, I Need A Drink" at the Crest? I went to the Sound Art fest instead. I walked home at midnight, stopped by Chita's on the way and had a taco. Quite a lot of people on the street in that neck of the woods, even after midnight.