The future of Ottawa's Transit

[Deez]

haha...no I'm not going tonight.

Kitchissippi you're going to have to show me how to hack PDF's like that...very cool. I agree in principle with what you've proposed, and it jives with the one thing that Wilkinson said that makes sense: "Why not just extend it...even if it does cost more money, maybe the feds and the province will throw it at us".

One slightly superficial problem is the elimination of the Bowesville maintenance yard. It's surprisingly problematic to find land for those things.

You'll be happy to hear that I've heard many people complaining about the Ottawa River Parkway portion. Same goes for djeffrey's comments about the operational savings of driverless systems.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Deez

Kitchissippi you're going to have to show me how to hack PDF's like that...very cool.

You just have to have the right software. Adobe Illustrator does it nicely — it reopens PDFs in their original vector format and you can hack away all you want. I've done this with the OC Transpo system map before they locked it into some java format and it's fun to change all the bus routes as you see fit.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Deez

One slightly superficial problem is the elimination of the Bowesville maintenance yard. It's surprisingly problematic to find land for those things.

Yeah, I know. I thought the St Laurent area was a contender. One other place I thought of, if LRT was extended to Orleans is Trim Road. There is a virtually empty industrial zone there by the dairy plant. It's right by the highway and no one would complain about noise. Orleans having the highest ridership would also be a practical place to stage the trains.

I would think that running the LRT through the Greenbelt would be the cheapest sections to build since there are few obstructions, much like the cheapest sections of the old NSLRT was through the greenfields in Riverside South. It would also save a lot of fuel and lessen emissions if most of the buses did not have to do this distance. The route along the highway in Orleans and Kanata is also relatively clear with the exception of the exits, with enough land to run rails

[Cre47]

Or least having a spur ending at Bayshore or Moodie. The Kanata local routes can end there, the Barrhaven locals would end at Baseline or Lincoln Fields and the Orleans locals end at Blair. If not, extensions to Fallowfield and Eagleson will be necessary to at least remove one transfer. We can remove the Bowesville bit and have only the extension to the Airport, or if not, extend it to Riverside South and Barrhaven, one of the two options, not just extending it to Bowesville in the middle of nowhere.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Deez

I'm pretty sure there's no real estate available to build a major transfer station at Montreal Rd. Even if there was, it's not exactly a great place for TOD...Blair Station is much more attractive to mixed use development.

As for the other two, I think it would be a pretty tough sell to spend that kind of capital to extend LRT to the inner fringe of the burbs where people would have to transfer regardless.

True, but again, it would be cheaper in long term, because no buses would have to pass through the Greenbelt.

Seems I was late to answer

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

You just have to have the right software. Adobe Illustrator does it nicely — it reopens PDFs in their original vector format and you can hack away all you want. I've done this with the OC Transpo system map before they locked it into some java format and it's fun to change all the bus routes as you see fit.

I think you just have the best plan (after that, I'll close ottawatransit haha), except like Deez mention, there's still the need for a major maintenance station. Riverside South needs a future LRT connector too.

Deez, it seems that LRT splits are "left" focussed. One line right of DT, and 4 possible lines (5 if you had Hull) on the left. What are the proposals to equalize the system? I would also like to have comments from staff on Kitchissippi's plan. For me, that is a futureproof plan, and everyone will be happy. BRT will also be built on arterials roads.

[c_speed3108]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

If that's the case why not go a few more kilometres and service each of the three existing Town Centres?

I would like to see something like this, where very little new BRT is built and instead have dedicated lanes along arterials and a more extensive LRT:



Can't the BRT money be spent on the extensions?

My gut is something like this would be better. This way each burb gets one rapid transit corridor and we are not wasting money on BRT's we will be getting rid of later.

A few comments:

Could using the old railway ROW out from Bayshore past Bell's Corners and out through Kanata south to Stittsville save money. The obvious disadvantage is Kanata (particularly the north end would not be as well served)


Rideau River bottleneck in the east end:

I see a few possibilities:

Buses run North on Blair and West Along Ogilvie and Conventry. North on the vanier Parkway (BTW the city is going to have to create bus lanes on these streets...convert the curb lane or something), Left onto Montreal/Rideau. Left Waller? We are definitely going have to somehow lighten the load of buses down around Rideau. Perhaps STO could use a shuttle instead of bringing every route to Ottawa (they should do this anyway...sorta like Ottawa's 180 Hull shuttle route)

Another possible route I thought of is to use Innes, Industrial to Hurdman, then head south to the smyth bridge, main to Greenfield and close Col. By Drive to traffic and have it buses only.

One idea that struck me one day was could we use the old railway bridge over the Rideau somehow? Could it handle a bus? Then go through the U of O Less campus to Less Ave, then either the Greenfield Col By route above or a King Edward to Laurier routing. They would have to build a temporary road to access it.

If they can time this work to after the construction of a new bridge at Kettle (or wherever), they could probably use Nicholas for something. During other construction they have changed the suggested downtown route sign on the 174 from Metcalfe to Nicholas...why not the other way...

Another way may be to try using a series of routes taking different directions. Bring the Orleans Routes in via the eastern parkway and Sussex... Routes a little closer in come via Montreal Rd. Routes a little south use Smyth.

One additional crazy idea....The Rideau is flow controled at the Rideau Falls to keep a certain amount of water in the river. Could that be released to get the water level down to a point where a cheap temporary bridge using those large size culverts could be constructed to get the buses across. Its a nutty idea...I know.


It is hard to imagine building anything from Lees to Laurier and being able to run the transitway...seems impossible to me.
I really hope the city has got the traffic engineering staff on this one. If they don't someone needs to send an e-mail and soon.

[waterloowarrior]

here are the 2005 Origin-destination survey PM peak period transit modal splits for the four suburbs. The sequence of the numbers is to the suburb, from the suburb, and within the suburb

South Gloucester/Leitrim (Riverside South) - 10%, 7%, 0% *
Kanata - 20%, 7%, 4%
South Nepean (Barrhaven) - 22%, 8%, 5%
Orleans - 36%, 13%, 5%

*note that RS was still fairly new at this point and does not have great transit service

[Deez]

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

Could using the old railway ROW out from Bayshore past Bell's Corners and out through Kanata south to Stittsville save money.

There are two big problems with this. One is that it skips the "town centre" around Terry Fox station. The ultimate goal of any plan should be to link these mixed use areas to promote shorter trips. The other is that the corridor is part of the trans canada trail; it would open a whole can of worms to turn it back into a railway.

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

Rideau River bottleneck in the east end:
...

With the exception of the Rideau River bridge, I don't think conversion will be quite as big of an issue as it's being played out to be. I'm reasonably confident that there is enough ROW on most parts of the transitway to construct a temporary lane (or lanes) to allow bus operations to continue during construction. If this isn't possible everywhere, we could take advantage of the fact that volumes are very much skewed in one direction during peak hours, and run a single lane in alternating directions.

To me, the most promising solution to the Rideau River problem would be if the Alta Vista corridor bridge was constructed. As much as I'm opposed to running an arterial down that corridor, the bridge would be a godsend for construction of the LRT. Buses could easily be routed south from Hurdman, then run up Nicholas from the bridge; you could even build a temp station at Campus

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

I really hope the city has got the traffic engineering staff on this one. If they don't someone needs to send an e-mail and soon.

Given that there's still a bus-only option on the table, that might be a little premature.

[eemy]

For crossing the Rideau River, I imagine the most sensible thing would be to use Nicholas, the Queensway, and then Riverside back to the Transitway. Obviously there would be a bit of a slowdown, but the detour would be fairly direct.

I imagine there would be cost savings for having just a single yard, but I wonder if it might be wise to at least have a small yard, or a bunch of sidings, at Bayview and Hurdman to deal with service interruptions a bit more smoothly, something akin to the Davisville Yard for the TTC. Why is the Walkley Yard out of contention again? Judging from the size of the yards for the subway in Toronto, it should be more than big enough.

[waterloowarrior]

Transit plan falls flat in Barrhaven
Residents argue area needs light-rail link because 'this is where the people are'
Jake RupertOttawa Citizen
Thursday, March 06, 2008

Three straight days of positive reviews for the city's new transit vision came to thudding stop Thursday night at a fourth and final public consultation meeting in Barrhaven.

Many in the crowd of roughly 60 people who showed up to examine four options for the future of transit in the city were flat out angry that none of the plans contain rail service to the fast-growing southwestern suburb.

Instead, all the plans would see bus service to the area for the foreseeable future. That didn't sit well with area residents, who would have had rail service under the city's previous transit plan.

"I don't see anything in this for Barrhaven, and this is where the people are," said Scott Robinson, 43, who lives in Barrhaven. "I take the bus, and it already doesn't have the capacity to deal with the demand even now.

"I'll set up a website to defeat this if any of these options go forward without a rail link to Barrhaven."

Since council cancelled the old plan, city officials are in the process of setting a new vision for the future of mass rapid transit. On Monday, they released four options containing a mix of bus and rail service for Ottawa.

The front-runner would see a downtown subway and light-rail spine running east and west to the edges of the Greenbelt and south past the airport.


The suburbs of Orléans, Kanata and Barrhaven would be connected to rail by bus transitways. City officials propose to implement the plan, which would cost about $4 billion, over 23 years.

People at a downtown public consultation felt the plan was good, mainly because the tunnel and light rail would take transit off congested downtown streets. People in Kanata and Orléans felt the city was finally moving in the right direction, but it should look at extending rail lines into the suburbs quickly.

Barrhaven resident Greg Frankson, 33, said it was "asinine" to think his area could be served with buses for the next 20 years. He said it's time for the city to switch completely to rail because it will be cheaper in the long run and will be able to accommodate more people.

Mr. Frankson said he knows it will cost more to build light-rail links out to Barrhaven, but governments and citizens need to realize that every dollar spent on public transit is a dollar that doesn't have to be spent on roads.
He urged the city to see a bigger vision.

"What I'm looking at here," he said, pointing to the favoured option, "is not going to take cars off the road and move more people.

"The only way to get all these things we want done, more livable cities, less pollution, and things like that, is to say we want big change, show people why we need it, and then push for it, and push for it, until we get it."

For the next year, city staff and council will refine the plans, with more public input in the future. Council is scheduled to choose a final option about this time next year. Then, the job of finding a way to pay for it begins.

© Ottawa Citizen 2008

interesting.... looks like "Option 5" seems to have a lot of support...

[lrt's friend]

Why is the Walkley Yard out of contention again?

CN no longer has any interest in Walkley Yards and withdrew its objections to adjacent development. So guess what? Not only is development proceeding but it is residential and it is going to built right up to the tracks. The only thing that will separate them will be a berm. Lot's of new NIMBYs will become neighbours of Walkley Yards starting later in 2008.

[waterloowarrior]

^ http://ottawa.ca/residents/public_consult/johnston/index_en.html
is this what you are referring to or is this another area that will be developed near the tracks?

[Deez]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

Deez, it seems that LRT splits are "left" focussed. One line right of DT, and 4 possible lines (5 if you had Hull) on the left. What are the proposals to equalize the system?

That problem has been identified by the project team. I have yet to hear any definitive mitigation measures.

In some respects, it will be impossible to completely equalize the system since the vast majority of future growth will be happening west of downtown. The only measures I can think of would be to redirect Gatineau buses such that they enter from the east, or run ELRT up the southeast Transitway, but then there would be very little point in converting the O-train. It may just be something we have to live with.

I would also like to have comments from staff on Kitchissippi's plan. For me, that is a futureproof plan, and everyone will be happy. BRT will also be built on arterials roads.

I agree, I like Kitchissippi's plan. However, I think access to the system could be improved for Riverside South residents. I can just hear the "double standard" comments now. Additionally, the maintenance yard and park and ride potential make Bowesville a very attractive place to end the line.

If clear rationale is given, I expect other staff would have positive opinions towards the plan. However, I wouldn't expect the project team to drop everything and say "This is it, this is the plan". It's been a long process to get to this consultation stage and everybody has their own idea of how the system should look. On the other hand, politicians are more than willing to throw away process. My suggestion would be to provide rationale for all the changes and send it to the Mayor, and a few councilors. You might want to send a copy to Colin too.

[Deez]

Originally Posted by article

"The only way to get all these things we want done, more livable cities, less pollution, and things like that, is to say we want big change, show people why we need it, and then push for it, and push for it, until we get it."

I applaud his ambition and enthusiam, but I laugh wholeheartedly at the hyprocrisy of a Barrhaven resident talking about urban sustainability. Maybe I shouldn't judge so harshly...

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by Deez

I applaud his ambition and enthusiam, but I laugh wholeheartedly at the hyprocrisy of a Barrhaven resident talking about urban sustainability. Maybe I shouldn't judge so harshly...

maybe he lives in a "Java Condo Flat" or one of Mattamy's "Urban Townhomes" ?

[Deez]

Ha yeah...

Here's a thought...if suburbanites want a share of the LRT, why don't they voluntarily take their fair share of the property tax hike? It hardly seems reasonable for Westboro residents to have their taxes go up 50% while Mr. Frankson's go down.

[lrt's friend]

^ http://ottawa.ca/residents/public_co.../index_en.html
is this what you are referring to or is this another area that will be developed near the tracks

Yes, this is the area but it has gone beyond a study as they preparing to build houses on one of those blocks of land between Johnston Road and Walkley Yards. I was shocked (I drive along Johnston Road fairly regularly) when I saw what was going on, since I thought that no development was to take place within 500 feet (or whatever) from the rail yards because of noise issues.

Here's a thought...if suburbanites want a share of the LRT, why don't they voluntarily take their fair share of the property tax hike? It hardly seems reasonable for Westboro residents to have their taxes go up 50% while Mr. Frankson's go down.

To be fair, nobody has control over their property taxes. This is the flaw of the whole system. A lack of equality of taxes for services rendered.

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

If that's the case why not go a few more kilometres and service each of the three existing Town Centres?

I would like to see something like this, where very little new BRT is built and instead have dedicated lanes along arterials and a more extensive LRT:



Can't the BRT money be spent on the extensions?

this plan is really good. It solves all of the issues regarding suburban riders having to transfer three times, as instead you just feed all the buses to the nearest rail station. I wonder if extending the Kanata line slightly to the Corel Centre would help sell the plan as well, considering all of the cars it could get off the road (although a bridge over the Queensway would increase the cost significantly). Also, extending the Riverside South line to Bowesville might also be good for the maintenance yard purposes and to give residents better transit access.

[Kitchissippi]

How's this for system "balance":
Two runs, Baseline-Orleans [Trim] and Kanata-Airport [Bowesville] à la 95/97
AND (throwing David Jeanes & Co. a "frickin' bone" here) DLRT from Barrhaven to Gatineau.
It also ends the duplicate modes between Walkley and Greenboro.
I think the 6 refers to billion



Hmmm...would the land across the highway from ScotiaBank place be good for a rail yard?