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  #1961  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2008, 8:28 AM
SJTOKO SJTOKO is offline
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Originally Posted by michael_d40 View Post
If you wanna start nitpicking again, im sure me and a couple of other SJ forumers can head back over to the moncton forum

I was there once. Isn't it just Halifax and Stu talking back and forth to each other and posting random articles....
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  #1962  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2008, 1:16 PM
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Originally Posted by SJTOKO View Post
I was there once. Isn't it just Halifax and Stu talking back and forth to each other and posting random articles....
How is that much different than what we do? lol


Anyway, welcome to all the new members of the forum, and to the future residents of the great city of Saint John! May you come to love the city and region as much as I have!
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  #1963  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2008, 1:32 AM
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CCNB and Friends of Earth Take John Baird to Court over Irving Refinery Proposal
Conservation Council of New Brunswick News Release
For immediate publication
Jan 14, 2008

CCNB and Friends of Earth Take John Baird to Court over Irving Refinery Proposal

Fredericton – What if Irving Oil’s proposed new oil refinery is subject to a federal environmental review. That’s the Conservation Council’s what if.

Canada’s Environment Minister John Baird is facing a lawsuit for his lax treatment of Irving Oil’s proposal to construct a massive oil refinery in Saint John. The Conservation Council’s Fundy Baykeeper and Friends of the Earth Canada commenced the lawsuit to ensure that the multi-billion dollar refinery – which is expected to generate greenhouse gas emissions equivalent to New Brunswick’s biggest coal-burning power plant– faces the full scrutiny of an environmental assessment by the federal government.

Launched by Ecojustice (formerly Sierra Legal Defence Fund) on behalf of the Conservation Council and Friends of the Earth Canada, the lawsuit challenges the federal government’s decision to dramatically restrict its assessment of the environmental impact of the proposed Irving refinery to the facility’s wharf structure – ignoring obvious local and transboundary air pollution, impacts on endangered Atlantic salmon and Right whales, and the global warming impacts of the refinery.

“Minister Baird’s decision to evaluate the wharf and turn a blind eye to the refinery itself is not only illegal, it is plainly absurd,” said Ecojustice lawyer Justin Duncan. “The law is clear; the federal government must conduct an assessment of the entire project in order to evaluate the impact this refinery will have on the health of the region’s residents and the environment. ”

If not overturned by the federal court, John Baird’s decision to study only the wharf would leave the assessment of the refinery’s environmental impacts to the province whose environmental assessment process failed to protect the environment from the massive upgrade of the existing Irving refinery. For example, the existing refinery’s emissions of carcinogenic benzene have increased by a factor of ten since the refinery upgrade, increasing the levels of benzene in Saint John’s air by 60 percent. The provincial environmental assessment process found there would be no change in emissions of this carcinogenic air pollutant.

“We are gravely concerned about the impacts the proposed Irving refinery would have on people’s health and our ability to achieve our greenhouse gas targets,” said David Coon, Policy Director for the Conservation Council of New Brunswick.

“The massive increase in shipping traffic a new refinery would bring threatens the critically endangered Right whales along their migration route,” said David Thompson, the Fundy Baykeeper. “What if this results in more ship strikes,” said Thompson. “John Baird is refusing to review this as well. What if this drives the nail into the coffin of the only remaining Right whales on Earth,” said the Fundy Baykeeper.

The Irving Refinery is one of three new refineries proposed across Canada where Minister Baird has refused to order a full environmental assessment and instead restricted federal involvement to the associated wharf or docking facilities, including projects in Southern Head, Newfoundland and Sarnia, Ontario. These proposed refineries will be the first to be built in Canada in approximately 25 years. The Irving refinery is intended to supply America’s seemingly insatiable appetite for gasoline, in states such as Massachusetts.

New England’s most prominent environmental groups made formal requests to Environment Minister John Baird in June 2007 that he order a full federal environmental review of the Irving refinery project as required under the terms of the Canada- US Air Quality Agreement. They received no reply.

The lawsuit argues that under the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act the federal government must study and minimize the harmful environmental impacts of these types of large-scale industrial projects.

“Given the refinery will join the ranks of the largest polluters in the country, the federal government has a legal obligation to examine the full environmental impact of the project,” said Beatrice Olivastri from Friends of the Earth Canada. “Passing the buck to New Brunswick is not acceptable,” she said.
Government respondents include Environment Canada, Transport Canada and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. Irving Oil Ltd. is also a respondent to the suit. It is expected the Federal Court will hear the application in mid-2008.

Related Documents:
Media Backgrounder [PDF]
http://www.conservationcouncil.ca/archives/2008/pdf/irving_refinery_lawsuit_bg.pdf
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  #1964  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2008, 1:34 AM
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Does this mean the refinery might not be built? It should be up to the residents if they want the refinery, not these conservationists... bastards!
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  #1965  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2008, 2:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Phantomtib View Post
Does this mean the refinery might not be built? It should be up to the residents if they want the refinery, not these conservationists... bastards!
I'm just as concerned about the environmental aspects of a proposed refinery (especially when you look at Fort McMurray and the tar sands), but anything and everything we can do (as long as it's done responsibly) to reverse the trend of the past twenty years and begin to play catch up even, should be done here. Industrial projects, commercial projects, retail, construction...are helping the boom to begin...if it stops short, it would be a little disappointing.

Regardless of the outcome, I believe we have the potential to develop and grow with or without a new refinery, but it would be a huge catalyst, just like the LNG is now. Without it, we still have Lepreau, the pipeline and others, not to mention a bit of community pride, but hopefully we can add this to our list of developments to keep the momentum strong.
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  #1966  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2008, 2:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Phantomtib View Post
Does this mean the refinery might not be built? It should be up to the residents if they want the refinery, not these conservationists... bastards!
Not really. They are asking for a full federal environmental assessment. Given the scale and nature of the project, it really wouldn't be out of the ordinary to do so. It would slow the project down though and cost Irving a few (million) bucks.

I seriously doubt the approvals would be denied. Look at the projects that are approved in northern Alberta where very large areas of boreal forest and bogs are adversely impacted now and for decades to come.

It wouldn't be such a bad thing to do the full federal EIA because it ensures potential environmental impacts have been investigated fully and plans are in place to account for them. Plus it makes lots of work for people like me
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  #1967  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2008, 2:36 AM
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I noticed the steel going up for the offices on Wellesley today....
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  #1968  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2008, 3:42 AM
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I dont understand these environmentalists, the problem is they don't know what they are talking about, they only know enough to cause a problem. The Provincial Assessment process is stringent enough and a Federal Assessment shouldnt be required in the first place. Sure there are some negatives to building a new refinery in Saint John, but the postives out weigh the negatives.
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  #1969  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2008, 5:29 AM
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I dont understand these environmentalists, the problem is they don't know what they are talking about, they only know enough to cause a problem. The Provincial Assessment process is stringent enough and a Federal Assessment shouldnt be required in the first place. Sure there are some negatives to building a new refinery in Saint John, but the postives out weigh the negatives.

Well...one could argue that the entire Provincial Assessment process is a bit of a joke...I mean, the Province could theoretically be biased towards *wanting* a new refinery (jobs, spin off, expand on the NB energy hub agenda, etc, etc), so just how indepedent is a Provincial assessment in the end??? It's kind of the same argument re: the petroleum coke terminal on the west side of the harbour...ultimately, the Port carried out it's own Env't Protection assessment....(i.e., the same agency that will profit from the project does the env't assessment....again, the issue of possible bias / conflict of interest comes up...) Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the new refinery...but if a proper and fair process to highlight environment & health impacts is done, this in the end helps us all....
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  #1970  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2008, 5:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Helladog View Post
I noticed the steel going up for the offices on Wellesley today....
Cool...nice to see movement there...whatever goes there, it's all along the entire block & it's better than the vacant decaying parking lot that existed prior...
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  #1971  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2008, 5:30 AM
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New Brunswick premier touts energy and business prospects to Maine
February 12, 2008 - 8:46 pm
By: Canadian Press



AUGUSTA, Maine - New Brunswick Premier Shawn Graham says there are significant opportunities to improve the already strong partnerships between his province and the state of Maine.

In a prepared speech to the Maine legislature in Augusta today, Graham says his government's goal of achieving self-sufficiency means forming new partnerships at home and beyond New Brunswick's borders.

He says the two jurisdictions can work together to promote tourism and deal with common border security issues such as passport requirements.

Earlier at a breakfast speech to the Bangor Chamber of Commerce, Graham congratulated business leaders from Bangor and Saint John in his prepared text for the work they have done to foster trade between New England and the Maritimes.

Graham says his government's goal of making New Brunswick the energy hub for the region offers opportunities on both sides of the border.

The premier says a second nuclear reactor at Point Lepreau is being considered and Irving Oil is looking at the feasibility of a second refinery.
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  #1972  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2008, 5:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Kablooie!! View Post
Hey all,

I'm a new forum member (have been lurking for a while). I'm in the software biz, and it's nice to see the growth that SJ is experiencing in the field right now!

Just wanted to say hi....
Greetings to both you (ps: love the name you chose) and thebrad...new opinions/points of view always welcome, and it's great to see more and more people started to recognize the exciting things that are happening in our region.....

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  #1973  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2008, 12:10 PM
SJTOKO SJTOKO is offline
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Were almost on page 100... The SJ forum has really taken off lately..
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  #1974  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2008, 4:41 PM
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[work Underway On New Cruise Terminal]


Work Is Getting Underway On A New Cruise Terminal Along Water Street.
Marco Maritimes Has Been Awarded The 8.7-million Dollar Contract With Completion Set For Some Time In September.
Port Authority Chair Steve Campbell Says The Cruise Industry Is Big Business For The Region Worth In The Millions.

Campbell Says Construction Comes As The Port Prepares For A Record Cruise Season With 82-ships Carrying Over 180-thousand Passengers Expected.
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  #1975  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2008, 5:18 PM
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With Completion Set For Some Time In September.
Let me be the first to say: WTF!?! September?! (I know I shouldn't be surprised, but it is ridiculous that they're going to have construction on-going all through the Cruise Ship Season? Pathetic.)


On the other hand....


Hooray for the work finally beginning!!
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  #1976  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2008, 5:40 PM
michael_d40 michael_d40 is offline
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Let me be the first to say: WTF!?! September?! (I know I shouldn't be surprised, but it is ridiculous that they're going to have construction on-going all through the Cruise Ship Season? Pathetic.)


On the other hand....


Hooray for the work finally beginning!!
Short term pain, long term gain.

No different then the year before last, when all of water street was dug up with no sidewalks, it was quite the mess, and look at it now? 100% turnaround.
We didnt suffer any tourism dollars. Most of these visitors are from the New York area. Im sure they are very familar with construction sites,

In any event yeah, Least work is beginning.
I do believe we had a few skeptics in the forum, saying that they didnt think it was gonna happen???
Patience people... Patience.
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  #1977  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2008, 6:38 PM
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Originally Posted by PostModernPrometheus View Post
Well...one could argue that the entire Provincial Assessment process is a bit of a joke...I mean, the Province could theoretically be biased towards *wanting* a new refinery (jobs, spin off, expand on the NB energy hub agenda, etc, etc), so just how indepedent is a Provincial assessment in the end??? It's kind of the same argument re: the petroleum coke terminal on the west side of the harbour...ultimately, the Port carried out it's own Env't Protection assessment....(i.e., the same agency that will profit from the project does the env't assessment....again, the issue of possible bias / conflict of interest comes up...) Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the new refinery...but if a proper and fair process to highlight environment & health impacts is done, this in the end helps us all....
That is a good point, however the provinial process is quite thorough and sometimes can be excessive (more so on the review side of the EA - TRC concerns in particular), having dealt with EIA registrations on occasion with the Dept of Environment and with techical review committee (TRC) questions and comments, which can often address important issues sometimes overlooked in an EA/EA Registration, but at the same time can be rediculous on occasion with unreal requests (like air dispersion modellnig requirments for small sawmill Boimass Boiler Registration(s) in the middle of no where with very limited air emissions and no nearby sensitive receptors ie residences) sorry got on a bit of a rant there. The EAs always go through this independent TRC before any permitts are issued and this often goes back and fourth several times and last for years, which would be the case for a project this size.

In saying this the Provincial EA requirements, in my opinion will be sufficient and the Federal portion should be limited to the marine component of the project (which it is). At the same time I dont live in Saint John and would not want to live next to a refinery, but not so much for heath and safetey concerns. So I can understand near by residents wanting the process to be as thorough as possible.
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  #1978  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2008, 7:46 PM
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Originally Posted by michael_d40 View Post
Short term pain, long term gain.

No different then the year before last, when all of water street was dug up with no sidewalks, it was quite the mess, and look at it now? 100% turnaround.
We didnt suffer any tourism dollars. Most of these visitors are from the New York area. Im sure they are very familar with construction sites,

In any event yeah, Least work is beginning.
I do believe we had a few skeptics in the forum, saying that they didnt think it was gonna happen???
Patience people... Patience.
I agree, just break ground so we know there are no more delays. Who knows, they may have some good plans about how to minimize the exposure for the passengers from the construction area.

I kind of like watching big projects, sitting on the cruise ship with a good beverage and the buffet table open, I might just stay on the ship anyway because I'd probably get a heck of a view of the construction site.
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  #1979  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2008, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by michael_d40 View Post
[work Underway On New Cruise Terminal]


Work Is Getting Underway On A New Cruise Terminal Along Water Street.
Marco Maritimes Has Been Awarded The 8.7-million Dollar Contract With Completion Set For Some Time In September.
Port Authority Chair Steve Campbell Says The Cruise Industry Is Big Business For The Region Worth In The Millions.

Campbell Says Construction Comes As The Port Prepares For A Record Cruise Season With 82-ships Carrying Over 180-thousand Passengers Expected.
K100 reported this afternoon that the majority of ships will dock at Long Warf in an effort to steer visitors away from the construction site. However, that will be hard to do on several days this season as multiple ships will be in port at once. I heard as well that completion is expected in September but there was no mention of an actual "start up" date. Geez, I should have taken bets on the tents being back this year, lol ..
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  #1980  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2008, 1:15 AM
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K100 reported this afternoon that the majority of ships will dock at Long Warf in an effort to steer visitors away from the construction site. However, that will be hard to do on several days this season as multiple ships will be in port at once. I heard as well that completion is expected in September but there was no mention of an actual "start up" date. Geez, I should have taken bets on the tents being back this year, lol ..
Yeah I figured that they would be using Long Wharf to divert a lot of the traffic away from the construction. Good thing they fixed it up a bit last Summer, can you imagine bringing 180,000 tourists in though that old building there?
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