Hartsfield Jackson Atlanta International Airport

[Rail Claimore]

McNamara Terminal is the bomb. It is THE only terminal in the US that looks like it belongs in Asia in both size and grandeur. It is the second-longest terminal building in the world, next to the terminal at KIX. I know ATL's new international terminal is supposed to be really nice by US standards, but with only 10 gates (I've heard rumors of upping it to 16), it'll be puny by international standards... unless you consider existing Concourse E to be part of this new terminal.

[ThrashATL]

Originally Posted by Rail Claimore

unless you consider existing Concourse E to be part of this new terminal.

Yeah, that's true, the E already has what, 30-32 gates and another 16 gates would make room for 48 international flights at a time, more than enough. They should just make it into a big H with a T concourse style front that parallels E and have room for a total of probably 55-60 gates.

[john3eblover]

at MSP, I believe I came in at B...and then took the train to the mall, and then left from F

And for the record, I'm not very good at evaluating terminals, concourses, etc. I know when something is nice, and I know when it's not nice. But other than that, all our experiences probably differ a lot on what we expect and are used to.

The same can be said for which airline is better. Those are the arguments that really bother me. When people say, oh, Continental is soooo much better than this airline, blah blah blah. I have flown every single mainline carrier at least once and probably twice in the last year. And they were all basically the same. The only airline that I have had consistent problems with is US Airways. Bad treatment by gate agents, bad flights, lost luggage, late or canceled flights, etc. And even that I realize is largely because of circumstances, not because one airline is that much worse than others.

But airports are easier to judge, thankfully. My standards are pretty low, but i find DTW and MSP to be pretty nice in my opinion overall. I also enjoy CLT. IAD is an airport that I flew out of constantly last year, and it probably has the farthest to go in my opinion. But i'm sure when they are done in a few years, it will be pretty nice too.

[ATLonthebrain]

I agree with your comments, john. The opinion of one person about an airline is going to be based upon their experiences and sometimes perceptions. That doesn't constitute the airline in its entirety. A bad flight does not make a bad airline, until it becomes something consistent. I think many of us have less than great trips from time to time, but if it's with a carrier we overall like, we are more willing to forgive and hope it's better the next time around.

The new International Terminal at ATL is (or will be when built) a result of the success of international service there, so I absolutely would say you must include Concourse E along with this terminal. It is being designed to provide a far superior experience to what is the current arrangement, and it will be at least 1 million sf in size. Also, take into consideration that this building could simply be a terminal with no gates, if there were no demand for additional airside capacity. However, there is considerable demand, and these gates will also accommodate domestic service when not being used for international flights. I remember a time when Conc E sat largely empty for chunks of the day. That's no longer the case.

10% of ATL's passenger traffic is now international, which is significant. There are serious peaks in that service, and if DL is to continue growing its international network there, more gates must be built. The east terminal will be connected to Concourse E via an underground tunnel and stop on the people mover. I've seen one rendering where it is attached to the east end of E. But I doubt that will happen, because those two taxiways crossing the field from north to south are critical and they are also used for deicing and flights being held by ATC.

Hopefully the final design will be unveiled in another month or two, and construction should get started by yearend in order for it to open by late 2010. Can't come too soon.

[john3eblover]

Originally Posted by ATLonthebrain

I agree with your comments, john. The opinion of one person about an airline is going to be based upon their experiences and sometimes perceptions. That doesn't constitute the airline in its entirety. A bad flight does not make a bad airline, until it becomes something consistent. I think many of us have less than great trips from time to time, but if it's with a carrier we overall like, we are more willing to forgive and hope it's better the next time around.

The new International Terminal at ATL is (or will be when built) a result of the success of international service there, so I absolutely would say you must include Concourse E along with this terminal. It is being designed to provide a far superior experience to what is the current arrangement, and it will be at least 1 million sf in size. Also, take into consideration that this building could simply be a terminal with no gates, if there were no demand for additional airside capacity. However, there is considerable demand, and these gates will also accommodate domestic service when not being used for international flights. I remember a time when Conc E sat largely empty for chunks of the day. That's no longer the case.

10% of ATL's passenger traffic is now international, which is significant. There are serious peaks in that service, and if DL is to continue growing its international network there, more gates must be built. The east terminal will be connected to Concourse E via an underground tunnel and stop on the people mover. I've seen one rendering where it is attached to the east end of E. But I doubt that will happen, because those two taxiways crossing the field from north to south are critical and they are also used for deicing and flights being held by ATC.

Hopefully the final design will be unveiled in another month or two, and construction should get started by yearend in order for it to open by late 2010. Can't come too soon.

[Neosoul]

Yeah, I'd like to hear an update on construction for the new terminal if anyone has any info.

[ThrashATL]

Originally Posted by Neosoul

Yeah, I'd like to hear an update on construction for the new terminal if anyone has any info.

Funny thing is, if you look at Microsoft Live Earth and view the area, you'll see foundations poured, dirt moved and what appears to be full blown construction going on. Then you look south in the same pic and the 5th runway is half done. That's how long this thing has sat still. The morons at Hartsfield fired the previous engineers for coming up with a design that costs too much. The thing that makes them morons is that waiting and hiring a new firm is going to cause the project to cost the same amount and be LESS of a building. Brilliant people in control of Atlanta government. Incomptentcy from top to bottom.

[ATLonthebrain]

Airports and its hub airlines are in constant contact. Just because one reason was given by DeCosta as to why he was firing the design firm, I would not be surprised if there was a lot more to it than that from those "behind-closed-doors" discussions that happen regularly between airport and airline(s). If DL preferred that ATL delay construction until it figured out its direction through the bankruptcy process, then the airport would have more than likely agreed. Conversely, if DL pressed incredibly hard on DeCosta to keep the project on schedule, the airport likely would have taken that into consideration also. An increase in costs would have been anticipated. And, if DeCosta were so incompetent, then people (primarily airport tenants) would be in an uproar to have him replaced. Airport tenants can be incredibly vocal when there is something, or someone, they have a serious problem with. I have yet to hear any major disapproval in how DeCosta is running Hartsfield-Jackson. Actually, what I have heard is primarily positive, both from tenants, employees, and those in the business community who deal with him. Doesn't seem like incompetency to me.

Some of the retaining wall on the east side was built, but that really doesn't mean much as far as the overall design. It would simply have to be coordinated into whatever is ultimately built. Maybe some grant funds were available for the project and had an expiration date on when the money had to be used. I'll ask about that from people I know within the Department of Aviation and see what I can find out.

[Fiorenza]

According to my source in the bureauracy, admittedly not a key player, it was the old racial divide. DeCosta supposedly said that any design firm that didn't adhere to "affirmative action" (ie, reverse discrimination) guidelines would fulfill the contract "over my dead body".

[ThrashATL]

Originally Posted by Fiorenza

According to my source in the bureauracy, admittedly not a key player, it was the old racial divide. DeCosta supposedly said that any design firm that didn't adhere to "affirmative action" (ie, reverse discrimination) guidelines would fulfill the contract "over my dead body".

That is pathetic, if true. DeCosta should be fired if that ever comes to light.

[Tombstoner]

For mandating minority set-asides??? That's business as usual.

[john3eblover]

And it's ridiculous as usual

[jcmjjc]

Originally Posted by ThrashATL

That is pathetic, if true. DeCosta should be fired if that ever comes to light.

DeCosta should be fired just because he's an moron. But again, as you pointed out, it's complete incompetence from top to bottom.

[ATLonthebrain]

For many projects at an airport funded at least partially with federal dollars, there is a minimum requirement for DBE participation. Additionally, the governing agency of some airports have established policies and guidelines that must be adhered to for its projects. Often times, one of the things addressed is minority involvement to some degree.

Having worked for various U.S. airports for a total of nearly 15-years and counting, I have seen and heard my share of things that get twisted and taken out of context by the time they are passed from one persons lips to another's ears a few times. I also am somewhat familiar with requirements on minority business practices. In fact, I recently heard a presentation based on the minority program of my current employer, and learned there is a lot that we as airports must watch very closely when it comes to maintaining business with minority owned companies. Most large airports will not want to be the guinea pig for a DBE firm that doesn't have the required experience to perform the duties of the contract. In other words, in my experience, a DBE firm is not selected simply because they are a DBE firm. The work experience, ability to deliver on the scope of services, and demonstrated involvement in large-scale projects are major factors. And there is also the ability of the primary contract holder to subcontract with DBE's to meet the required goals.

I think it's interesting how quickly some believe that it comes down to the race card, based on a statement that seems not to have been heard firsthand. How do we know that whoever they heard it from wasn't putting their own little spin on it to give it more spice and flavor? People can spin something any way they want. Again, I think there is a lot that went on behind the scenes in making the decision to delay the East Terminal a couple of years back, with the full knowledge that it was going to cost in the end and drive up the overall budget. Everyone knew that, and if there were heavy hitters in opposition to that, believe that they would have made their opinions heard at that time.

Does anyone remember how loudly the business community objected to Bill Campbell's decision not to reappoint Angela Gittens as Aviation General Manager a few years back? Even though it did not change the outcome, that is what I'm talking about. If there are people of power in opposition, they will at least put it out there for all to hear, and the media will be all over it. So, if enough influential people felt that DeCosta was incompetent, ineffective, or a moron (as you say jcmjjc), I suspect we would be well aware of it by now.

[jcmjjc]

Originally Posted by ATLonthebrain

Does anyone remember how loudly the business community objected to Bill Campbell's decision not to reappoint Angela Gittens as Aviation General Manager a few years back? Even though it did not change the outcome, that is what I'm talking about. If there are people of power in opposition, they will at least put it out there for all to hear, and the media will be all over it. So, if enough influential people felt that DeCosta was incompetent, ineffective, or a moron (as you say jcmjjc), I suspect we would be well aware of it by now.

Who says we're not aware of it?? Atlanta city is FULL of incompetent, ineffective morons and it's pretty obvious to A LOT of people. Luckily, things are slowly changing for the better.

[ATLonthebrain]

I simply stated an example of the business community making its feelings known when something happened within the city that they were not in support of. In this case, the feeling was that Angela was good for the airport and the metro area and was moving it forward and Bill was making this a personal vs professional issue in his decision to send her packing. Once again, I say: If Ben DeCosta were incompetent, ineffective, and a moron, we would be well aware of it by now. And, what I specifically meant was, he would not have a job if there was consistently strong vocal opposition by those in positions of power.

If there are so many morons, then that needs to be made so clear that it becomes an embarassment to the City. Even then it might not make change, but at least it's out there. I'm not a resident of the area, so I'm not making any claims. I just get so tired of the bitching and moaning and complaining on here about race and incompetency and ineffectiveness and whatever else when it comes to the City of Atlanta. Is it really that bad there? I can already sense the responses, so I may as well start preparing for the barrage of negativity now on final approach.

[jcmjjc]

Originally Posted by ATLonthebrain

Once again, I say: If Ben DeCosta were incompetent, ineffective, and a moron, we would be well aware of it by now. And, what I specifically meant was, he would not have a job if there was consistently strong vocal opposition by those in positions of power.

Those in power are no more competent than he is.

If there are so many morons, then that needs to be made so clear that it becomes an embarassment to the City.

I AM embarassed by most of our city leaders and so are a lot of other people.

I just get so tired of the bitching and moaning and complaining on here about race and incompetency and ineffectiveness and whatever else when it comes to the City of Atlanta.

Maybe that should tell you something...

Is it really that bad there? I can already sense the responses, so I may as well start preparing for the barrage of negativity now on final approach.

I'm not going to slam you with negativity. Simply put, yes, it is that bad in Atlanta but again, I see things slowly changing for the better and I am very optimistic about the future of the city.

[megalopolis]

So, jcmjjc, do you think the leadership at Delta and Airtran is incompetent too? They would have to be in order to allow someone as bad as you say he is to continue running an airport that is so crucial to their company's financial performance.

Not all of our city leaders are bad. Our mayor, after all, was named one of the five best big-city mayors in America by Time magazine and one of the country's best leaders by U.S. News and World Report. How can you not be proud of that?

[WSUSOM]

Not trying to be an ahole but if you think the leadership is incompetent you could just move to another city. I can't find the source but I remember reading a couple of months back that the Atlanta airport was one of the best run large airports in the country.

Originally Posted by jcmjjc

Those in power are no more competent than he is.



I AM embarassed by most of our city leaders and so are a lot of other people.



Maybe that should tell you something...



I'm not going to slam you with negativity. Simply put, yes, it is that bad in Atlanta but again, I see things slowly changing for the better and I am very optimistic about the future of the city.

[jcmjjc]

Originally Posted by WSUSOM

Not trying to be an ahole but if you think the leadership is incompetent you could just move to another city. I can't find the source but I remember reading a couple of months back that the Atlanta airport was one of the best run large airports in the country.

I would never leave this city because of the leadership. As I said, it's getting better and I'm optimistic about the future.

Originally Posted by megalopolis

So, jcmjjc, do you think the leadership at Delta and Airtran is incompetent too? They would have to be in order to allow someone as bad as you say he is to continue running an airport that is so crucial to their company's financial performance.

Not all of our city leaders are bad. Our mayor, after all, was named one of the five best big-city mayors in America by Time magazine and one of the country's best leaders by U.S. News and World Report. How can you not be proud of that?

I'd love to know what they based that on.....I find it hard to be proud of anyone that can ward off huge corporations in favor of musical recording artists who employ NO ONE and create no tax base.....who can let one of the largest budget deficits completely slip their attention....who can continue to let the city infrastructer rot beneath our feet.....really something to be proud of!

As far as the airport, anyone with half a brain can keep it running but it takes great leaders to make leaps and bounds over the norm. Just because we are home to the World's busiest airport doesn't automatically give it's leader the title of World's Best Airport Manager.