Lister Block | ? | 6 fl | Renovation

[matt602]

For those who don't know, in that last photo of the red brick building, the hallway extends (up 3 or 4 steps as well) from Lister right on into it. There is skylights on the 4th floor in that building. The ground floor of Lister however does not connect with that building. It's quite nifty.

[flar]

^^interesting. I just noticed the 4th floor and the narrow bit between the red brick building and Lister were additions.

[SteelTown]

From my understanding LIUNA is trying to get Mohawk College to take residence of a building along James Street N as the Arts and Music department. It would be demolished and replaced with a modern colourful and artist glass building, kinda like one of the downtown campuses at Montreal. It's sort of the same idea as the recent Ryerson rendering for Sams.

[matt602]

Originally Posted by flar

^^interesting. I just noticed the 4th floor and the narrow bit between the red brick building and Lister were additions.

I was just studying that part after I typed my last post. I'm un-sure of how that worked, but yes there's definitely a difference in the brickwork there. It seems like it could have only been big enough for a stairway or something (I don't think theres actually stairs there though).

I'm gonna have to get back in there soon and take a close look inside. I love these old buildings and their quirky additions. It's so fun to explore.

The old building on the left of Lister on James is really awesome. If my research is correct, it dates back to a time WAY before the present Lister Block. Mid or late 1800's. Sadly it is in horrible condition. The floor up to the window in this picture is a suicide walk.



(same windows as in your picture but from the inside)

[the dude]

must they be demolished? i'm sure it could be avoided. liuna just doesn't want to work for their money.

the building to the left of lister was built in the 1850s by william thomas - architect of wilderness house, inglewood, numerous other hamilton buildings that have been demolished. he also designed st. lawrence hall, the don jail and a million other buildings i can't think of right now. he was a very prolific and highly regarded architect.

incidentally, most of that building is hidden under that wretched facade. it could be saved but i don't think people care enough. and mark my words, once they start messing with the streetwall, other buildings will start to give and voila! another crater in the hamilton landscape.


[courtesy postcards of hamilton]

the red brick building was attached to lister after the original lister burnt in the fire of '23.

[raisethehammer]

no, Dude, they don't need to be demolished.
LIUNA is just determined to destroy a bit more of Hamilton with you and I paying for it (literally and figuratively).

[LikeHamilton]

The two building next to the Lister (one on James and one on King William) are not built to the same standards as the Lister. I have been in all three. The Lister is a solid concrete building and contrary to popular belief, it will not fall down. The brick and terracotta may fall off. The chimney at the rear may fall over. But the building will not fall down in a hundred years…or even burn down.
The other two building are different. They are a wood frame building with double brick walls. The buildings have not been heated for 10 to 15 years and exposed to the elements. It has a lot of rot and dry rot in it. These building are ripe for falling down, as one part is needed for the other to work. My biggest fear is fire. It is wide open and would get a good start before anyone would notice. You could loose a big chuck of the block.
I am not saying it can’t be fixed. The Fire Station 1 on John Street right behind the Lister was the same type of construction as the two other buildings. They gutted the building out completely. I remember going by when they had everything out but the 4 walls and the roof. The building was filled with scaffolding keeping it up. They build a new steel and concrete structure inside the building attaching it to the walls and the roof to give it a modern inside. It cost them only $3.5 million to renovate the building. Mind you the building was not in a state of disrepair and they need to modernize their operations.
I personally like the looks of the other buildings and would like them save more than the Lister. I have never been fond of the look of the Lister.

[SteelTown]

LIUNA will be making a presentation on Feb 11 at City Council to finalize a deal.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

LIUNA will be making a presentation on Feb 11 at City Council to finalize a deal.

sure they will.
and then a few weeks later they'll pull out and blame the city.

[realcity]

a desparate offer no doubt. They're loosing the cash cow to a potential redev of the Board of Ed land.

[SteelTown]

This will be a full presenation from LIUNA, Joe, so it'll likely include new plans and renderings possibly.

Joe will probably suggest the idea of using the Lister Block to house city employees instead of building a tower behind City Hall.

[SteelTown]

City can back Lister Block, Education Centre, mayor says
By Richard Leitner

Mayor Fred Eisenberger says the city has enough staff to move into both a refurbished Lister Block and a massive development proposed at the downtown Education Centre.

While the city has previously proposed relocating its health department to the Lister Block, the Education Centre redevelopment is a "perfect fit" because it would also include a McMaster University family medicine centre, he said.

"There's obviously a direct synergy between family medicine and public health," Mr. Eisenberger said.

"We would look for other city staff (for the Lister Block). There's a thousand other staffers that are outside of the old city hall building that still need to be accommodated somewhere, that are at various locations and at various times the leases come up."

A concept plan unveiled by the city last month calls for the leveling of the landmark Education Centre to make way for the medical centre, two hotels and new headquarters for both the board and city health department.

The proposal -- which doesn't yet have a price tag -- is one of two options that will be considered as part of a business plan to be presented to Hamilton-Wentworth District School Board trustees in April.

The other would see the board sell the site and relocate administrative offices to a new building at Jerome Park on the West Mountain that would also house maintenance staff and a training centre.

Estimated at $33 million, this option would allow the board to close six former schools also used for administration, including specialists and maintenance personnel.

"I would like the school board to stay downtown. I think it's important. I think we need that kind of critical mass," Mr. Eisenberger said.

"To have it move off onto the Mountain or something just personally doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but I also understand the economic issues they have to deal with. I think the downtown plan should work for them economically as well."

The mayor said demolishing the 41-year-old Education Centre, located at the northwest corner of Main and Bay streets, isn't a big issue for him.

"Fifty years old isn't exactly terribly old and it's not terribly historic, either" he said.

"This whole concept, the benefit in terms of tax dollars, rejuvenation, bringing high-end jobs downtown, you put that all together, I think that overrides a 50, 55-year-old building."

Trustee Ray Mulholland, who voted against proceeding with the move or redevelop options, said the city's plan "could work with some modifications."

He calls the idea of two hotels "a little bit stretched," but questions spending money on new accommodations for administrative staff when there are so many pressing needs for school repairs and new schools, especially in Winona and Waterdown.

"This board should get their priorities straight, and it's not building new Taj Mahals or ivory towers," Mr. Mulholland said, suggesting the $33-million figure may balloon.

"It's either going to be $55-60 million because of something we do that's stupid or we're going to lowball it and spend $20 million and do nothing."

Regardless of which option the board chooses, it will need to make a business case to the Ministry of Education for funding.

Mr. Mulholland said if the board gets $10 million for the Education Centre site and another $3 million for some of the other administration buildings, it will still have to borrow at least $20 million.

He said he'd prefer to see the board use existing space better and direct money to new high schools, including at Jerome Park.

Computer technicians at the Memorial building in Ancaster could be relocated to schools where they do their work, for instance, as could speech therapists, social workers and other specialists, he said.

"Along the way I think we've lost our sight of exactly why we're there, and that's to spend the funding on the students," he said. "We're spending too much time trying to tear down our head office when there's much more important issues."

[realcity]

Why is it that everytime a nice looking building is proposed in Hamilton it's labelled a "Taj Mahal". Can't we build good buildings anymore without the cost offending anyone? Or is the "Taj" label just an opportunity for someone to push through their proposal? Does everything have to be a shitbox in Hamilton, because we can't afford it? Some things are worth the money, the image they (a good building) project is worth more than the dollars it takes to build.

What would Buffalo be today without this?


It's a good thing Buffalo spent the money on great building. A building that will always have big shoulders holding a crown up tall and proud, even over the tough times, Buffalo gets inspiration to be a great city again every time they look at their city Hall.

[raisethehammer]

well said realcity.
I'm convinced that the fabulous stock of preserved and restored historic buildings in downtown Buffalo is one of the reasons why so many of their new buildings are designed very well. It's almost like a positive peer pressure.
Someone doesn't want to come onto Elmwood or Chippewa Street and plop down a crappy building next to places like that city hall or Statler Hotel etc....
In Hamilton it's the opposite.
Builders get away with such shite and always pass it off by saying "well, its better than all these other buildings surrounding us".

Who will step up here and do something properly that can make the city proud as well as put pressure on the next guy who comes along with a proposal to match or surpass them?
From the drawings i've seen, I really believe the new Education Centre is just that project. It's unlike anything we've ever seen built here.

[SteelTown]

Lister developers pull rabbit from hat

February 11, 2008
Andrew Dreschel
The Hamilton Spectator

The Lister Block developers will be playing a new and high card when they go before city council today with their proposal to restore the downtown landmark.

Warren Green, president of Hi-Rise Group, says if the city walks away from the project, a second phase involving a residential tower behind the Lister will be stopped dead in its tracks.

Green says the partnership is in "detailed discussions" with a company that specializes in building condos, primarily for seniors.

He says negotiations involve building a residential complex -- up to 12 storeys high and containing about 100 units -- behind the Lister and in the adjacent historic William Thomas building on James North.

"They would be able to do it as part of an exciting new development, but they're certainly not going to do it as long as there's a derelict building there," Green said.

Green is partnering with Labourers' International Union of North America (LIUNA), which owns Lister, to turn the vacant eyesore at King William and James streets into high-grade office space, with the intent of convincing the City of Hamilton to be the anchor tenant.

Today's presentation, which is expected to be led by LIUNA's Joe Mancinelli, will update council on costs as well as pitch the idea of the city buying the building after it has been restored rather than leasing space.

The rebuilding of the Lister is widely seen as a necessary and symbolic catalyst for downtown revitalization.

But last month council rejected going ahead with the project after learning the proposed rental rate had skyrocketed to $37 a square foot.

The original proposal was for $24 a square foot but that involved demolishing and replicating the heritage building. The average cost of leasing space downtown ranges from $10 to $20 a square foot.

The developers say the new leasing rate was the result of higher construction costs for rehabilitating the original 1924 building, a change prompted by the intervention of the McGuinty government to protect the building in the name of heritage preservation.

By scrapping the deal, council jeopardized the $7-million provincial subsidy that was intended to offset the leasing premium.

Green now says the leasing rate will actually be closer to $40 a square foot instead of $37 because of the cost of tenant improvements and some architectural work.

He says Mancinelli will provide councillors with detailed information about the advantages of purchasing instead of renting.

But, in general terms, Green says it will cost the city "significantly less" to buy Lister.

According to Green, the cost of leasing for 20 years, even with the $7 million from the province, is almost $41 million.

On the other hand, he argues that over the same time it would end up costing the city about $31 million to buy the building.

Green maintains that would work out to about $24.50 a square foot, which would pretty much bring it in line with the original estimates.

"And at the end of 20 years, the city would own a property worth at least $25 million free and clear," says Green.

Mayor Fred Eisenberger has previously said the city is willing to consider purchasing Lister, but any deal has to make solid economic sense.

Meanwhile, the province has sent out strong signals to both the developers and the city that it will allow its $7 million grant to be used to offset the purchase price, if it means restoring the heritage building.

But, as a body, there's little doubt that council is generally more wary than enthusiastic, more likely to greet the proposal with skepticism than open arms.

[raisethehammer]

seniors condos are fine and all, but these guys are obviously clueless to the demand for high quality condo living downtown among all demographics.

[DC83]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

seniors condos are fine and all, but these guys are obviously clueless to the demand for high quality condo living downtown among all demographics.

Why can't they mix it? Retirement with regular condos?

Why is LIUNA so obsessed with retirement homes? Wasn't that their plan with the Connaught too?

[raisethehammer]

originally they mentioned 1 seniors condo and 1 regular condo tower at Connaught. Then I think they started looking into 2 high end condo towers there, but who knows. That whole thing was a big charade with no plans to ever build anything.

[oldcoote]

Liuna is still fishing here. Trying to get the city to bite.

[SteelTown]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

originally they mentioned 1 seniors condo and 1 regular condo tower at Connaught. Then I think they started looking into 2 high end condo towers there, but who knows. That whole thing was a big charade with no plans to ever build anything.

Two towers one for seniors and one regular hotel service type of condo tower. Then it went down to one tower for the land because of London Tap House. Now it looks like instead the senior tower will go to the Lister Block instead of the Connaught land.