AUSTIN | Projects & Construction II

[arbeiter]

You're not full of anything. Everyone knows that he has a habit of being overly harsh with his opinions. With everything, time will tell what really happens. In national terms, Austin is unbelievably ripe for the picking, the combination of talent, amenities and affordability is absolute kismet at this time in history. Downtown is no exception. It may very well be that for every 10 new office parks in Williamson County, there may only be 1 new office building in the city, but there is going to be demand at some point.

If what some people were saying were really true, then Orange County and Riverside County would have empty suburbs next to new exurbs and would have no densification or Irvine/Glendale type neo-downtown clusters. In virtually all dynamic metropolitan areas, whether more urban or more suburban, downtown's growing, near-downtown's growing, and suburbia's growing, all at varying rates. There isn't a CBD left in any major city in the country that isn't attracting some kind of attention. The reason for this is that we have finally entered a new generation of thinking that places value in the city as an inherently good place to be.

[JGFrisco]

I don't there is earth-shattering news...we've all know that 5th & Congress was really iffy for a long time, and would be very likely to appear in different if and when it is ever completed.

Of note, the Austin Towers site has the height of 21c as 484', not 580'. Anyone know the difference?

PS 21c's site is still down (except the front page). Again, it would not at all surprise me to see this one added to the "delay" list.

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by arbeiter

Well, that's four high-tech companies out of several hundred, thankfully. I am sure that not everyone who's a CEO behaves in the same way. The vast majority of billionaires and millionaires probably prefer a Mercedes or a BMW, but there's still Warren Buffett with his Ford Taurus or maverick moguls with their Priuses. The vast majority of CEO's probably are like your former boss, but that doesn't mean that he's "full of it". Be nicer, for god's sakes!

The number of high-tech companies which have located downtown compared to the number which have located on 360 or 183 is a drop in the bucket. The observed data matches my anectdotes rather than y'all's, sad to say (I wish it were the other way around).

Hell, all you have to do is try to find a good tech job downtown and it becomes pretty damn obvious (hint: I've tried).

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by ATXboom

Easy there M1. I was addressing your point that they don't want to locate downtown due to traffic. We are NOT about where the wealthy desire to live. We are talking about corporate offices... not personal homes.

Company offices are generally located to be convenient for the CEO, not the worker, especially when the office moves. See AMD for a great example, or the general case from PeopleWare, referenced here by Joel on Software

virtually all corporate relocations involve a move to a location which is closer to the CEO's home than the old location. Whyte discovered this principle after an extensive study of Fortune 500 companies that left New York City for the suburbs in the 1950s and 1960s. They always had big, complicated Relocation Committees which carefully studied all the options and chose, coincidentally I'm sure, to move to within half a mile of the CEO's home in Danbury, Connecticut. Whyte also showed that these companies all tanked after the relocation. With, I believe, but one exception, companies that left New York City to be closer to the CEO's house in Connecticut or Westchester had dismal stock performance compared to companies that stayed in Manhattan.

Joel is one of the few high-tech guys out there who didn't put his company in the burbs. I actually posted recently in a thread about help with more geographically constrained job searches, and even on this site, run by a dedicated urbanist, it was still full of a bunch of people who thought I was practically a Martian for not wanting to buy a second car just to work at my company's new office out on 360.

[Jdawgboy]

There's no doubt in my mind that we will see more office space built in downtown Austin. No doubt at all... Despite what others might say.

[arbeiter]

While I am sure the CEO's personal choice to locate an office near him is definitely a factor, what if the CEO decides to move downtown? Or to get a pied-a-terre downtown and then that influences his decision?

He cites a study from a bygone era which is hardly able to be taken seriously in today's context. The reasons why: the commute from Connecticut or Westchester to NYC has been one of gridlock since the 1950's and 1960's, on both the commuter train lines and the highways. It's quite possibly the oldest stretch of highway in the nation to continually exhibit a rush hour - it was carrying 200,000+ drivers a day well before Los Angeles' roads caught up to it. Westchester and Fairfield County have been developed since the 19th century; before WWII parts of it were already built out. The commutes have been an hour plus since the Model A probably.

Add that to the fact that CEO's back then were less beholden to stockholder interest and the fact that the city in general was disliked and out of style and you have your answer.

It doesn't explain why companies as diverse as Target, Compuware, Pier 1, Comcast, so on and so forth, have decided to move downtown.

[austin242]

I think that we will have alot more office space downtown in the future but as for tech companies depending on how big they are will build in the suburbs inless they want a signature building to themselves. The point is big tech companies need space.

[Mopacs]

Here are some shots I took on an overcast afternoon (1/24)... Lots of progress to report.

Monarch, from the Town/LadyBird Lake pedestrian bridge





From W 5th St



360 from the pedestrian bridge





Spire closeup



crane coming down...











Monarch and 360...



360 and friends



Legacy...













The Shore



East Riverside condos



Bridges on the Park





21 Rio starting to rise above 21st and Rio Grande



21 Rio crane from 19th/MLK St

[KevinFromTexas]

Thanks for the update Mopacs. I really like the way The Monarch looks from the pedestrian bridge. I think on the spire of 360 they have some kind of platform on a track that runs up the side of the spire. It looks like you can see some workers up there doing something. Probably adding wiring and light fixtures. Nice to see all the progress.

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by austin242

I think that we will have alot more office space downtown in the future but as for tech companies depending on how big they are will build in the suburbs inless they want a signature building to themselves. The point is big tech companies need space.

Not really - most tech companies use far less space per employee than your average law firm or bank office - so there's absolutely nothing preventing them from coming into a big office building downtown. And it's not that they're cheap, either; the buildings they're renting are in the ballpark for plenty of downtown offices.

Again, try interviewing for tech positions in Austin and it becomes very very clear - most CEOs and most workers are suburbanites; you're practically a Martian to them once they find out you live in the city and actually take the bus places.

The study may be old, but it's pretty much gospel - it still goes on today - again, note AMD's move; the fact that two startups ago all the execs lived in Lakeway and our two offices were 4 miles west of 360 on 2244 and 2222 respectively; etc.

[JGFrisco]

Let me jump in here. There are advantages to living downtown, and there are also advantages to living in the suburbs. I have three very busy children, and frankly, living in an apartment with no yard and without easy vehicle access would be highly unattractive to me.

I live in a single-family home on a large lot, and we take the car everywhere. I LIKE my life. I like the privacy of my own home and my own yard. I like being able to go the grocery store, drive into my garage, and carry packages inside without having to lug them four or five blocks.

Now...in the future, when my kids are gone, I wouldn't mind changing lifestyles. I'd love to get one of these apartments high up in 360 with a nice balcony and a nice view.

In short, there is demand for many different lifestyles. Downtown living will have appeal, but the scope of that appeal is actually pretty limited. In a place like Austin, where land is still pretty cheap, there is a limited number of people that will like living downtown. As commutes increase, and land costs do as well, the numbers who prefer to live downtown may increase.

[RobDSM]

Originally Posted by JGFrisco

Let me jump in here. There are advantages to living downtown, and there are also advantages to living in the suburbs. I have three very busy children, and frankly, living in an apartment with no yard and without easy vehicle access would be highly unattractive to me.

I live in a single-family home on a large lot, and we take the car everywhere. I LIKE my life. I like the privacy of my own home and my own yard. I like being able to go the grocery store, drive into my garage, and carry packages inside without having to lug them four or five blocks.

Now...in the future, when my kids are gone, I wouldn't mind changing lifestyles. I'd love to get one of these apartments high up in 360 with a nice balcony and a nice view.

In short, there is demand for many different lifestyles. Downtown living will have appeal, but the scope of that appeal is actually pretty limited. In a place like Austin, where land is still pretty cheap, there is a limited number of people that will like living downtown. As commutes increase, and land costs do as well, the numbers who prefer to live downtown may increase.

You are right not to let anyone dictate how to live your life or lecture you on the quality of life in "suburban hell." Central city and suburban living each have their merits. I'm currently looking for work, and believe me, my quality of life will go way down if I have to accept a job downtown. That might change someday, but the suburban life is much more practical for me today.

[ATXboom]

On point... there is no case for traffic being an impediment for new office development downtown.


Regarding M1's new subject:

Most CEO's have multiple residences.

I addressed facility issues regarding public companies. They don't put facilties near CEO's. Sure... small companies + or - 100 employees probably do try to locate near their primary residence. I'm talking about major employers. Note: Vignette had some big plans...

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by ATXboom

On point... there is no case for traffic being an impediment for new office development downtown.


Regarding M1's new subject:

Most CEO's have multiple residences.

I addressed facility issues regarding public companies. They don't put facilties near CEO's. Sure... small companies + or - 100 employees probably do try to locate near their primary residence. I'm talking about major employers. Note: Vignette had some big plans...

Most office moves bring the office closer to the CEO's primary residence (and yes, in some cases to a secondary residence; but that usually doesn't mean a pied-a-terre; it means to "their house in this metro area"). You can wishful think this all you want - but even with public companies, that's the way it goes.

The AMD CEO's secondary residence is in the Barton Creek Country Club. It's not a coincidence that they moved from SE to SW Austin. Likewise, not a coincidence that the two offices I had at Realvue were more convenient to Lakeway than Central Austin. Likewise again, not a coincidence that the execs at Netbotz (office near 183/Braker) lived around Lake Austin. Likewise a fourth time, not a coincidence that the exec who set up my company's new office on the southern end of 360 lives in Buda.

Vignette's plans may actually have backed up my position more than yours, by the way. Their CEO (Garber at the time) was one of the business guys backing the 2000 light rail lobbying group - and Peters, the other guy at the top at the time, lives in Tarrytown - so downtown is actually not any less convenient than their Mopac offices.

[evergreen1]

check out the las vegas boom thread. amazing pictures and lots of commentary over the use of eifs. The facade was burning.!
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=3310430&posted=1#post3310430

[Austin Contrarian]

Developers don't need to lure a new company downtown to build a commercial office building. They want an anchor tenant, but they can recruit one or two from existing firms downtown. (My law firm was the anchor tenant for 300 W. 6th when it opened in 2002. We moved all of one block, from the Chase Bank Building.)

If rents go high enough, developers will start looking for tenants -- law firms, accounting firms, consultants, banks. They will build their buildings. The older buildings will see their vacanies rise. (The old Chase building had empty floors for years after we moved out.)

I doubt developers care much about congestion, unless it starts affecting market rents. Most of the costs of congestion will be born by other buildings' tenants.

[priller]

Absolutely beautiful day today. Unfortunately, I was supposed to work this weekend. Fortunately, the AC went out in our server room the night before, the room got to about 110 degrees, the sickly smell of burning plastic permeated the office. So the network and servers went down. Over to you, IT guys. See you Monday!

So I went and walked around downtown for about 2 hours. A few pics...


360 Spire:




Monarch:




Shore. All the scaffolding is down, looks like it's ready to move in!




Spring.

Cheesy Spring neon sign. Looks like they're going to make a little model of the building next to the sign. Awesome!



One of the problems photographing this building is there's no good vantage point so far. This shot shows they've made a lot of progress on the base and parking portion. I think we should see the tower start rising over the next month.





Red Spring crane:




Altavida.

Added another floor to the front portion, started working on the 10th floor on the tower portion.










Austonian.

Okay, about 5:30pm today all the workers were gone except for the painters working on the pedestrian tunnels. The gate was still open, though. So I took one step inside and took a few quick photos. That's all!

Here's the mat slab bristling with rebar and getting ready for the huge amount of concrete to be poured in:







Rebar as big as yo' head:



Reflected crane:




360. They were taking a few more sections from the crane. When I happened to walk by I thought they were about to take out another, but it was late and instead they were putting things back together and getting ready to go home. Still, got a few good shots of the guys working.








Frost:




West Downtown:

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by Austin Contrarian

Developers don't need to lure a new company downtown to build a commercial office building. They want an anchor tenant, but they can recruit one or two from existing firms downtown. (My law firm was the anchor tenant for 300 W. 6th when it opened in 2002. We moved all of one block, from the Chase Bank Building.)

If rents go high enough, developers will start looking for tenants -- law firms, accounting firms, consultants, banks. They will build their buildings. The older buildings will see their vacanies rise. (The old Chase building had empty floors for years after we moved out.)

I doubt developers care much about congestion, unless it starts affecting market rents. Most of the costs of congestion will be born by other buildings' tenants.

Yes, but as we know, all the interesting stuff happens at the margins. In this case, the aggregate effect of all the tenants' demand, affected by that congestion, put together will, in fact, keep rents down to the point where it may not be profitable to do anything more than replace capacity. (One thing nobody's mentioned so far is that yes, there's been 2 big new office buildings in the last 10 years, but there's also been some conversion of old office space into condos - Brown Building, Sabine, others?).

[priller]

Brazos Place.

[crewer]

Originally Posted by priller

Absolutely beautiful day today. Unfortunately, I was supposed to work this weekend. Fortunately, the AC went out in our server room the night before, the room got to about 110 degrees, the sickly smell of burning plastic permeated the office. So the network and servers went down. Over to you, IT guys. See you Monday!

Excellent shots, Priller. I sure appreciate these postings and updated photos from everyone. You guys do a much better job of keeping me informed about Austin than my friends there do.

I may have missed this in an earlier posting, so I apologize if I'm being redundant, but did anyone catch the news about the JW Marriott on Congress? It was posted in the Austin Business Journal on January 11.