Downtown Vancouver Updates

[jjjb]

Absolutely - not that I've ever seen a condo building where things like that get used anyways, so who knows 1) how many people in downtown Vancouver actually use a gym instead of just playing outdoor sports, doing yoga or whatnot 2) where the people who do need a weight room actually go.

Obviously amenities are just put up as a marketing tool for the selling phase. Even things that seem kinda novel like the W Lounge don't have that much community appeal - living in a 450 sqft yuppie cage has a way of just making you want to leave the building, not go upstairs to socialize (get wasted?) or do mini-laps in a shallow pool around your neighbours.

Plus it's not like huge developments like Woodwards end up attracting the demographic they market to in the end. Look at those soulless condos around Tinseltown, and the Van Horne. All the units get snapped up by absentee investors or rented out by Downtown Suites and whatnot. Sure there's the person who genuinely prefers to live downtown and those who simply want to enjoy that lifestyle until they get married, have babies and trade-up to an actual house, but I can't imagine the drug dealers and parentally-subsidized students just deciding to hang out in those amenity spaces.

I should be more optimistic, but I lament the fact that Gastown will probably amount to nothing more than a slight less Calgary-flavoured Yaletown.

[officedweller]

Tafryn's Broadway Station pics show progress at The Crossroads (that's the office block):

[jlousa]

Saying something is futile to do until Woodwards is open isn't true, any business hoping to capitalize should get established as soon as possible, sure they might lose money until Woodwards and other developments come online, but thats a cost of doing business (Think Costco they moved in before the area was ready and it's just now starting to pay off). While the gym isn't my 1st pick either I think it could do great if priced right, I also think targeting Arts students isn't a bad idea, all university/college campuses have a gym something all the d/t campuses are missing. There is a market there in itself. I don't think the Woodwards residents themselves will probably use it as they will have a nice gym. I can assure you the amenty rooms in most towers do get alot of use, sure not everyone uses them, but as a percentage more condo owners use their gyms then say SFH owners have a gym membership.
I also disagree with the condos around Tinseltown being souless but that is my opinion. By the way I'm a current SFH owner who is looking forward to moving into a shoebox, funny thing is I see it as an upgrade.

[mathew]

As an addendum – Eco Fitness anticipates 25,000 visits a month; I'm very curious how they are calculating this ostensible traffic. Even with Woodward's incredible density, I'm going to assume that any percentage of WW occupants who will use fitness facilities will be more prone to use FREE facilities. So, where is all this traffic coming from? Downtown? Oh there's a Fitness World; Kits? Oh, another Fitness World; Burnaby? Ah... at least when you drive 45 minutes to come to your gym you know you can find parking in the Cordova St Parkade. I wonder if Eco Fitness will offer subsidized parking? And hey, if Steve Nash's 38,500sf facility is barely breathing after a few months, kind of makes you wonder how a facsimile of this in a substantially less populated/attractive area will manage. May as well line up another tenant (Plan B?)

[jjjb]

Well I work by SFU's current art facilities and I frankly can't really imagine that demo being really interested in that air-conditioned school of fitness. Mere daylight seems to burn their skin. Anyways, that's neither here nor there.

Everytime I've ever stood outside a Concord building to visit a unit I saw gaggles of jocks coming home in their silver gym shorts with the gym bags and the basketballs only to peer through the windows of the building's actual gym to find it completely deserted. That's just my experience, and obviously I'm generalizing, but you have to remember that people who go to commercial gyms do so partly (as in, in addition to whatever benefits to their health/image) because it is a social environment where you can meet people and show off or whatever.

The point is, with the city's dearth of office space, and with downtown Vancouver already being enough of an outdoor shopping mall, there's better uses for the Storyeum. Although for one thing it can't be a supermarket, with the Wwds Buy Low just a short ride down the fireman pole from your Juliette balcony. I can't really think of anything else needed to be capitalized upon besides a place where you can get North American food at decent prices. Just split the friggin Storyeum into office space, studio space for UBC's School of Architecture, and other stuff that's relevant to the neighbourhood before it becomes even more homogenous.

With regards to the value-for-money of some of these apartments (although the units in Wwds seem fairly nice), you have to remember that the economics of Vancouver are totally on acid. Don't get me wrong, I don't miss the winters in Montreal, but if it had been possible to have the $960/month, 1300-sqft downtown loft I had there shipped here I wouldn't feel so sad about the fact that my landlord got a 279,000 mortgage on a poorly-finished "vertical nature" that gets 20 minutes of sunlight a day and no air circulation. That said, I just feel like there's gotta be a way to maybe provide a balance between those two extremes, so don't tell me to move somewhere else.

[jlousa]

I think the issue with Steve Nash's club is price and price alone, I mean sure at up to $150/month you'll be bound to lose weight, you can't afford to eat. But even their basic plan I beleive is $60+/month.
There is a market for gyms d/t if the price is set right.
Also 25,000 visits/month is only 833/day, over 24hrs that only 35people/hour. Of course that's overly simplistic and I agree those are probably optimistic numbers, but they aren't impossible. Those predictions are a lot closer then Storyeum's projections of 1Million visits/year.

[mathew]

Originally Posted by jlousa

Saying something is futile to do until Woodwards is open isn't true, any business hoping to capitalize should get established as soon as possible, sure they might lose money until Woodwards and other developments come online, but thats a cost of doing business (Think Costco they moved in before the area was ready and it's just now starting to pay off). While the gym isn't my 1st pick either I think it could do great if priced right, I also think targeting Arts students isn't a bad idea, all university/college campuses have a gym something all the d/t campuses are missing.

By the time a feasability study, amendment to rezoning and construction is completed for said gym, Woodward's will be at full occupancy - so in essence whether it is futile or not is moot. Though if you don't live in Gastown and get a good look at the streetscape on a day-to-day basis, you can't really have a sense of how little traffic there actually is. Arguably, the gym will not be "priced right" if what I've read about the company is true (boutique fitness, for sure.) Besides which, nothing in Vancouver is priced right. Costco is not even remotely "in the area" – and the nature of big box stores like Costco are such that people will plan a shopping trip accordingly. I don't know about you, but I want my gym to be convenient and close to home/work. "Weights" gym is also in Gastown... Urban campuses do usually have fitness facilities – but a contemporary art school has a significantly different program and context. Most art school students I know don't even eat, so I don't really see them at the gym.

[jjjb]

Originally Posted by mathew

Most art school students I know don't even eat, so I don't really see them at the gym.

They also seem to prefer chewing gum over brushing their teeth, no?

Anyways - anybody got suggestions? Please don't say Indigo.

Or, let me re-position: Where does this "every inch of interior space in this city has to be sacrificed to profit" attitude even originate from? Although it's definitely more vibrant than say, Ottawa, could it be the reason why there's nothing to do in this city after 10? Doing coke at the office doesn't count. ;-)

[officedweller]

OK, it could be a warehouse for the food bank.

[jjjb]

Originally Posted by officedweller

OK, it could be a warehouse for the food bank.

I'd rather see something that breaks even.

I didn't say: let's just put any sort of hare-brained socialist scheme in there, I said let's at least keep it public and have it serve the interest of as diverse a demographic as possible. A warehouse for the food bank is definitely not any of those things, although one could build condos in the basement under the alley. They could market them as "underground natures" and make a mint!

[Jacques]

I am just joking, but seeing how lame sometime one can get, how about turning the space into Porn Studio or have the Vancouver Film school move in???
LOL
BIG dark no light so air space, maybe good for Gothic bloodsucker, vampire dungeon club, who knows, its such a waste to even fathom anything created by the city incompetence
my two cents worth

[Ultraman]

Here's a rendering of the project from the notice sent by the City to neighborhood residents.

I live in the Domus, the building in the background of the first picture and I have to say that I'm quite happy with this project. I think it's great that they are planning to retain 3-5 of those old houses. While they could be described as modest abode of the early 1900, clumped together they would make a charming little oasis among the high-rises.

Overall this site is an eyesore and I hope it gets built sooner than later.

[mathew]

Originally Posted by Jacques

I am just joking, but seeing how lame sometime one can get, how about turning the space into Porn Studio or have the Vancouver Film school move in???
LOL
BIG dark no light so air space, maybe good for Gothic bloodsucker, vampire dungeon club, who knows, its such a waste to even fathom anything created by the city incompetence
my two cents worth

So – I guess NONE of you have been in the space: there is a lightwell running down the entire east elevation that has a stormwater retention garden at it's base and provides some degree of natural light. There is also a central atrium that acts as additional stormwater filtration and during the day lights a significant amount of the underground space. The only significant drawback is the lack of a lobby/foyer for the Water Street office space. Again, I don't know if ANY of you have actually ever BEEN in Gastown – but it's desolate and barren and the result of a surfeit of heritage groups limiting the extent and program of development on a fairly large scale. IF Gastown was the West End there would already be an American Apparel, fruit market and walk-in clinic in the Cordova side of things AND it would still look heritage. But Gastown is NOT the West End, does not look like it gets any breaks when it comes to zoning and I'm pretty sure they City doesn't give a bleep about it despite being the Old Montreal of Vancouver.

[Canadian Mind]

Nice tall podium. I like the look.

[TwoFace]

Originally Posted by mathew

pretty sure they City doesn't give a bleep about it despite being the Old Montreal of Vancouver.

The "W" is the catalyst for the area, once it's built and the others that are slated for the DTES, hopefully then, Gastown will be similar to Old Montreal. Not sure how many here are old enough, but back in the 1970's Gastown and even Hastings up to Main, was the party zone.
This is off course before cheap drugs and no legal deterrent.
Check back in 5-8 years.

[mathew]

Originally Posted by TwoFace

The "W" is the catalyst for the area, once it's built and the others that are slated for the DTES, hopefully then, Gastown will be similar to Old Montreal. Not sure how many here are old enough, but back in the 1970's Gastown and even Hastings up to Main, was the party zone.
This is off course before cheap drugs and no legal deterrent.
Check back in 5-8 years.

I don't disagree – I mean you're absolutely right – I'm just saying that those that are saying that Gastown already has the wherewithall to do it on it's own are totally wrong. W is going to change it all. It's pretty radical.

[jlousa]

I am a big fan of W myself, I have a vested interest in it, but I disagree with your opinion on Gastown, I feel it's doing quite well right now on it's own, it is the place to be, practically every new "IT" restaurant is there, there was a lot of development already taking place before W and obviously more since. And while W is definitely going to help especially with the supermarket and a drugstore plus an influx of people, I don't think I would describe current day gastown as desolate and barren, hell even gastown of 5-8years ago when it wasn't fashionable was never barren.

[SpongeG]

that one building in gastown is full of gay guys - the gym is like gay church i am sure a gym would do well there

hehe

[jjjb]

Originally Posted by jlousa

I am a big fan of W myself, I have a vested interest in it, but I disagree with your opinion on Gastown, I feel it's doing quite well right now on it's own, it is the place to be, practically every new "IT" restaurant is there, there was a lot of development already taking place before W and obviously more since. And while W is definitely going to help especially with the supermarket and a drugstore plus an influx of people, I don't think I would describe current day gastown as desolate and barren, hell even gastown of 5-8years ago when it wasn't fashionable was never barren.

Actually, to set the record straight, Old Montreal IS more barren than Gastown - frankly I think that's how the people who live there want it - you have the ULTRA touristey part for sure, but out of season and after 5 pm when the advertising agencies let out you're left with Reborn, Olive and Gourmando, and the only thing that's actually open is the video store I used to work at that had like 1 customer every 1.5 hours. It's just a different place, and obviously when they revitalized it they didn't have to take into account any sort of social housing or diversity. It was a quiet prestige neighbourhood and it remains that way to this day.

I think my reaction to the Storyeum affair is that the way the city is going about it is just looking at a bunch of figures and projections and then saying "Well that makes sense", only because of all the profit they stand to make. Allowing it to remain a break-even building could give a chance to someone who has a good idea an at least some capital. I'm not saying that I want there to be a reusable tampon store or anything too Commercial Drive (shudder), just that to get anything off the ground in downtown Vancouver requires the kind of capital that people like Steamworks (chain), Donnelly (errr...) and Boneta (Mafia) have. In the end you get a bunch of 15 dollar microwave dishes for tourists or just insubstantial, disposable hype restaurants. Again, that's a generalization but the diversity isn't happening yet. People who visit from out of town are always asking me to take them through the neighbourhood because they see it as the more "cutting edge" place in this city (even if that means Goodfoot and Komakino, not to mention the commodification of IV drug use) - we normally end up looking elsewhere for food though, for the lack of any kind of restaurant that's not just a disappointment waiting to happen (even Salt is a bit like been there done that at this point, compared to the stuff you'd find in Parkdale, Yorkville, or the Mile End).

The big thing with Gastown is that every city in Canada has some heritage-y neighbourhood that got re-cobblestoned and filled with tourist traps and condos, and a lot of nothing in between. None of those really had the kind of "cleaning up" to do that acts as the impetus for the social housing going up in Wwds etc. Like it or not, there's gonna be diversity (think social classes) there FOREVER, and I think we have a chance to do something very meaningful with the nieghbourhood if it doesn't end up being another bland, half-assed, washed-up, nouveau-riche, Yaletown-style disaster.

[vanhattan]

Originally Posted by jjjb

Actually, to set the record straight, Old Montreal IS more barren than Gastown - frankly I think that's how the people who live there want it - you have the ULTRA touristey part for sure, but out of season and after 5 pm when the advertising agencies let out you're left with Reborn, Olive and Gourmando, and the only thing that's actually open is the video store I used to work at that had like 1 customer every 1.5 hours. It's just a different place, and obviously when they revitalized it they didn't have to take into account any sort of social housing or diversity. It was a quiet prestige neighbourhood and it remains that way to this day.

I think my reaction to the Storyeum affair is that the way the city is going about it is just looking at a bunch of figures and projections and then saying "Well that makes sense", only because of all the profit they stand to make. Allowing it to remain a break-even building could give a chance to someone who has a good idea an at least some capital. I'm not saying that I want there to be a reusable tampon store or anything too Commercial Drive (shudder), just that to get anything off the ground in downtown Vancouver requires the kind of capital that people like Steamworks (chain), Donnelly (errr...) and Boneta (Mafia) have. In the end you get a bunch of 15 dollar microwave dishes for tourists or just insubstantial, disposable hype restaurants. Again, that's a generalization but the diversity isn't happening yet. People who visit from out of town are always asking me to take them through the neighbourhood because they see it as the more "cutting edge" place in this city (even if that means Goodfoot and Komakino, not to mention the commodification of IV drug use) - we normally end up looking elsewhere for food though, for the lack of any kind of restaurant that's not just a disappointment waiting to happen (even Salt is a bit like been there done that at this point, compared to the stuff you'd find in Parkdale, Yorkville, or the Mile End).

The big thing with Gastown is that every city in Canada has some heritage-y neighbourhood that got re-cobblestoned and filled with tourist traps and condos, and a lot of nothing in between. None of those really had the kind of "cleaning up" to do that acts as the impetus for the social housing going up in Wwds etc. Like it or not, there's gonna be diversity (think social classes) there FOREVER, and I think we have a chance to do something very meaningful with the nieghbourhood if it doesn't end up being another bland, half-assed, washed-up, nouveau-riche, Yaletown-style disaster.

Wow. I Love the strong opinions here and especially yours. I do however think you are quite harsh with your "Yaletown-style disaster" comment. I don't love everything about YT, but it is quite far from a disaster. Until I see something better come along in this town, it will remain one of my favorite neighborhoods.