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  #2401  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2008, 4:59 AM
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thoraudio thoraudio is offline
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g-man.... leave.
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  #2402  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2008, 5:07 AM
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I have mixed feelings about 'smart growth' suburbs. Yes, they're nice and cute and all.... and the purpose of the design is great.

but they have an air of 'white flight' about them. i.e., I want all the good urban stuff, without having to deal with the urbanites.

The same amount of $$$ invested in the Waters and Hampstead, could have been invested in the downtown area bordered by 65 and 85, with much better results for the city.... but we all know there's a reason that wasn't done.

It's the same reason that the bypass/mcgehee road area is being abandoned in spite of the $$$ and demographics in parts of that area....

unfortunately, it's these fractures that keep the city from moving foward, and keep Montgomery bickering and divided.
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  #2403  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2008, 5:13 AM
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g-man.... leave.
I can't leave. I love Montgomery. I want update pics. Got it? Good.
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  #2404  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2008, 2:35 PM
EXbubba EXbubba is offline
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Planned communities in and of themselves are not a bad thing, especially in the context of greenfield settlements that exist within their own context. MGM area is just getting involved in this type of development and the Waters is probably the best example - not sure about Hampstead as its village concept is rather English. On the original note of discussion, the state would seem to be primary over the city, but I would also think that this design could be somewhat altered to a more urban one with public services, state or otherwise, in the first floor abutting the sidewalk frontage. One difficulty might be that not much foot traffic will be generated by other buildings with similar shortcomings in design. Upper Dexter has never been very retail oriented - at least since the 50's.
Finally, I live in a "planned community" (circa 1990) and while I can walk to get services, it is at least 15-20 mins unemcumbered via paved trails. The "town center" as it is oftern called is still a strip center and they average about one every mile or so through out this "planned community" and adjoining, so-called "planned communities". Despite having many amenties most of these "plans" seem to lack any vision connected to the original idea of small urban villages in a suburban setting. They are just one step above a subdivsion - albeit a pleasant one. A car is a necessity in most cases because people are often so busy they even schedule their "free" time.
I grew up in capitol hgts and did walk to the grocery, as several small grocers existed within the neighborhood. We used to say.. "we don't live in no subdivsion - we live a a neighborhood!"
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  #2405  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2008, 3:17 PM
GARDEN MAN GARDEN MAN is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thoraudio View Post
I have mixed feelings about 'smart growth' suburbs. Yes, they're nice and cute and all.... and the purpose of the design is great.

but they have an air of 'white flight' about them. i.e., I want all the good urban stuff, without having to deal with the urbanites.

The same amount of $$$ invested in the Waters and Hampstead, could have been invested in the downtown area bordered by 65 and 85, with much better results for the city.... but we all know there's a reason that wasn't done.

It's the same reason that the bypass/mcgehee road area is being abandoned in spite of the $$$ and demographics in parts of that area....

unfortunately, it's these fractures that keep the city from moving foward, and keep Montgomery bickering and divided.
There will be some good news about "infill" housing options in the Montgomery Advertiser this week. Be "on the lookout"

"bystander2" out.
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  #2406  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2008, 9:46 PM
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Capital Heights Capital Heights is offline
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Originally Posted by Chad Emerson View Post
Mr./Mrs. Capital Heights,

Under that definition of sprawl then Old Cloverdale or the Garden District in their original inception would qualify as sprawl as they both leap-frogged existing development and developed in the greenfield where the trolley car lines were extended to.

As designed, places like The Waters, Hampstead, and others are designed to represent a complete settlement upon completion.

This is exactly the approach taken for early trolley car suburbs that represent some of our country's best historical planning efforts.

Based on your username, it appears that you live in Capital Heights.

What specific daily trips/purchases do you typically meet via walking/biking?

That's a key question because while some people may live closer to downtown Montgomery (or, in my case, Faulkner's Jones School of Law where I teach) than me, they also drive much more often--usually because they cannot safely and/or conveniently walk to get something as simple as a gallon of milk or loaf of bread.
It seems that by your definition if you live within walking distance of a Super Walmart than that is smart growth. I am not saying that Montgomery is a pedestrian friendly city. What I am saying is the solution does not involve moving to a culturally self-contained residential enclave fifteen miles out of town that you only have to leave to go to work or vacation.

I have argued on this board and other places for the RSA to build a more pedestrian friendly building on Dexter. It would appear that at a minimum the proposed building does not have that concrete wall that separates the building from the sidewalk that appears in all the other RSA buildings. This is a good start.

Last edited by Capital Heights; Jan 20, 2008 at 9:56 PM.
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  #2407  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2008, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by GARDEN MAN View Post
There will be some good news about "infill" housing options in the Montgomery Advertiser this week. Be "on the lookout"

"bystander2" out.
good to hear from you. I'll be looking out.
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  #2408  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2008, 11:07 PM
ExpatBaman ExpatBaman is offline
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Originally Posted by Capital Heights View Post
I have argued on this board and other places for the RSA to build a more pedestrian friendly building on Dexter. It would appear that at a minimum the proposed building does not have that concrete wall that separates the building from the sidewalk that appears in all the other RSA buildings. This is a good start.
The Monroe St side of the building has a concrete wall next to the sidewalk.



While we're at it:







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Last edited by ExpatBaman; Jan 20, 2008 at 11:33 PM. Reason: Added pics
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  #2409  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2008, 12:45 AM
Chad Emerson Chad Emerson is offline
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Okay, Mr./Mrs. Capital Heights, let's try and explain it from the opposite way (I believe that we've discussed this in person but I'm glad to re-discuss this again on-line).

If infill redevelopment is truly the answer, then why hasn't the Capital Heights neighborhood become revitalized.

After all, it has so many of the needed tools:

1. Convenient location to downtown
2. Well-designed interconnected grid layout
3. Historically very well-built and well-designed homes
4. Civic space, including a playground

And, I'm sure that I'm missing some others.

In fact, I'd say that when I first moved here, Capital Heights struck me as one of the best planned neighborhoods in the entire city.

Yet, for the 5+ years I've been here (and even for many years before that as I'm told by locals), the neighborhood has continued to lose value despite all these positive aspects.

So, when you promote infill as the solution, then my first reaction is that I agree in concept.

But, then reality hits and it becomes clear that, if your solution was the practical solution from all aspects, then this gem of a neighborhood called Capital Heights would have regained its luster by now because it is a very well-designed place.

Yet, at some point, planning concepts and ideals must become realities or, if those ideas don't play out, then other ideas must be tried because clinging to unfruitful ideas--no matter how well in concept--generally do not lead to revitalization.

In this city, we have had many of the nation's most successful planners, architects, demographers, engineers, transportation officials and the like all provide excellent advice. Yet, except for a few excellent projects like the A&P development or the Phoenix lofts, very little has actually been done on the private side of the equation (alot of this probably has to do with the fact that, even when an infill development like the A&P is proposed, the developer has to fight ridiculous municipal bureaucracy just to do the right thing).

Ultimately, I see all of these similar sized cities across the Southeast and the country as a whole realizing dramatic redevelopment (see Greeneville, S.C. or Chattanooga, TN as two examples) and simply wonder why hasn't Montgomery realized these same levels of improvement and investment?

My family and I have come to really love this city and that makes it even harder to see so much of this potential remain unrealized.
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  #2410  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2008, 2:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Chad Emerson View Post
Okay, Mr./Mrs. Capital Heights, let's try and explain it from the opposite way this comes off as a little arrogant and Bronneresque, I would prefer that we have a conversation I do not think that I particularly need you to explain anything to me(I believe that we've discussed this in person but I'm glad to re-discuss this again on-line). I do not believe we have ever discussed anything in person.

If infill redevelopment is truly the answer, then why hasn't the Capital Heights neighborhood become revitalized. This is my point exactly, too much wealth is leaving the city for the perceived safety and homogeneaty of eastern and northern suburbs. Particularly damaging to the goose that laid the golden egg are the suburbs outside the taxing authority of the city. This wealth transfer out of the city renders the city less able to provide the needed services to an aging and more needy population. Those who remain get more frustrated and they, too, leave. It is a cycle of decline. The only hope for salvaging Montgomery is a vibrant downtown that encourages high income people to not move to the suburbs but to move near the city center. Hopefully this is beginning to happen. ALthough, there have been some damaging setbacks recently. Most notably are the merger of Regions and SouthTrust Banks and Colonial Bank moving its headquarters out to the suburbs.

After all, it has so many of the needed tools:

1. Convenient location to downtown
2. Well-designed interconnected grid layout
3. Historically very well-built and well-designed homes
4. Civic space, including a playground

And, I'm sure that I'm missing some others.

In fact, I'd say that when I first moved here, Capital Heights struck me as one of the best planned neighborhoods in the entire city.

Yet, for the 5+ years I've been here (and even for many years before that as I'm told by locals), the neighborhood has continued to lose value despite all these positive aspects. I do not believe Capital Heights has lost value.
So, when you promote infill as the solution, then my first reaction is that I agree in concept.

But, then reality hits and it becomes clear that, if your solution was the practical solution from all aspects, then this gem of a neighborhood called Capital Heights would have regained its luster by now because it is a very well-designed place. My point is that the design of the neighborhood is not what is important. It is the location of the neighborhood. If a perfectly designed neighborhood is outside the city it does very little good for the city. But, even a poorly designed neighborhood in the city can do much good.

Yet, at some point, planning concepts and ideals must become realities or, if those ideas don't play out, then other ideas must be tried because clinging to unfruitful ideas--no matter how well in concept--generally do not lead to revitalization.

In this city, we have had many of the nation's most successful planners, architects, demographers, engineers, transportation officials and the like all provide excellent advice. Yet, except for a few excellent projects like the A&P development or the Phoenix lofts, very little has actually been done on the private side of the equation (alot of this probably has to do with the fact that, even when an infill development like the A&P is proposed, the developer has to fight ridiculous municipal bureaucracy just to do the right thing).

Ultimately, I see all of these similar sized cities across the Southeast and the country as a whole realizing dramatic redevelopment (see Greeneville, S.C. or Chattanooga, TN as two examples) and simply wonder why hasn't Montgomery realized these same levels of improvement and investment? I think that Montgomery uniquely suffers from a social and civic adolescence that is far beyond my pay grade to explain. I do, however, think that forced racial integration in the 50's and 60's, while good for the nation and absolutely the right thing to do, left this city without having developed its own maturity as far as race relations are concerned. Although we have progressed, there is still a racial distrust not far under the surface. This "two Montgomeries" has allowed political, social, and business leaders to exploit the fears and prejudaces of the masses and maintain control without much of a social conscience. Futher, I imagine part of the anger at Bronner is the lingering resentment from some of Montgomery's old money families who used to rent office space to the state but lost those lucrative deals when Bronner started to build office space. Finally, for whatever reasons, for many years Montgomery's political leadership was ultra-conservative and chose to exercise very limited government. There was essentially no civic investment in downtown or anywhere else for that matter. There was no Hyundai, no Gateway Park, no riverfront, and certainly no downtown baseball. It has taken several years of progressive leadership to begin to dig out of a twenty-two year hole of stagnation.

My family and I have come to really love this city and that makes it even harder to see so much of this potential remain unrealized.
My family and I love this city too. We choose to live at its core and try to help it heal itself. We do not live in some fantasy neighborhood, work in an ivory tower, and occasional soil our hands with the dirty business of building community.

I hope this is not becoming personal. I am thankful that you and your family feel such a part of the community. I respect a diversity of opinions and points of view. I simply wish more people would choose to stay and fight the good fight rather than run from thier fears and in doing so damage Montgomery's vitality and future.

Last edited by Capital Heights; Jan 21, 2008 at 2:31 AM.
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  #2411  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2008, 2:28 AM
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Originally Posted by thoraudio View Post
I have mixed feelings about 'smart growth' suburbs. Yes, they're nice and cute and all.... and the purpose of the design is great.

but they have an air of 'white flight' about them. i.e., I want all the good urban stuff, without having to deal with the urbanites.

The same amount of $$$ invested in the Waters and Hampstead, could have been invested in the downtown area bordered by 65 and 85, with much better results for the city.... but we all know there's a reason that wasn't done.
100% agreed on all points thoraudio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thoraudio View Post
It's the same reason that the bypass/mcgehee road area is being abandoned in spite of the $$$ and demographics in parts of that area....

unfortunately, it's these fractures that keep the city from moving foward, and keep Montgomery bickering and divided.

This despite the fact that the area is diversified and growing with people moving up in income and upgrading their lifestyle. They are still building 300k-500k near Montgomery Mall long after some developers led the retailers to the "newer" places...
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  #2412  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2008, 2:30 AM
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^^Any update pics?
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  #2413  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2008, 2:56 AM
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Originally Posted by GARDEN MAN View Post
There will be some good news about "infill" housing options in the Montgomery Advertiser this week. Be "on the lookout"

"bystander2" out.
...is it...really you?!

Glad you joined us, dude.
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  #2414  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2008, 2:59 AM
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Originally Posted by ExpatBaman View Post
The Monroe St side of the building has a concrete wall next to the sidewalk.



While we're at it:







Hey expatbaman, Thanks for the pics.
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  #2415  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2008, 4:32 AM
midwestrabbi midwestrabbi is offline
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Loft Living

How is the idea of living in downtown working? Before I moved, there was talk about Loft apartments being developed. About thirty five years ago I lived at the Capital Towers, at the time a nice classy place. Do you think there will be a demand for retail to return to the downtown area. About a decade ago several of us were looking into the possibility of opening a Grocery store in downtown Montgomery. We surveyed downtown stores in Bham ( at the time there was a Bruno company store close to U A B ) and Atlanta, and even Columbus Ga. We came to the conclusion that the population base needed to be over 7,500 living in the downtown area for this to work. Another survey that we took showed that 95% of the people who work in the downtown area do not go outside of the building that they work in, they drive into the parking deck and at the end of the day they drive out of the deck never going out of their building, we talked to people from the Capital complex to the bank buildings on Commerce. As you see there is no medium grocery store in downtown, because we ( about 7 of us ) did not think this would work nor was there any interest in it. I love a active downtown, shoppes, stores and so forth. I have noticed one thing though, Many years ago Bham had a simular problem, they had to change peoples opinion of their downtown. I understand that they have several buildings that are being renovated for people to live in, the old First Federal Building ( 25 floors ), the Old Blachs Store ( 4 floors ) , the old Cabana Hotel ( 20 floors ) , and the ( 8 floor ) old Pizitz Dept Store and H Q, among others. With vision downtown Montgomery could come back, I know that it is possible because I was reading the other day that here in Denver we have over 100,000 people living downtown. One more thing, with Downtown Montgomery coming back it lets me know never give up on what you believe. For years when all of the business were leaving and going south and east no one ever thought life could be breathed back into downtown ( at the time even the state was building out of the Capital complex , Highway Dept, ADEM and others ) I come to Montgomery several times a year ( to see my grand Kids ) the first place I go is Downtown Montgomery, bring it back with dignity, make it a destination , not just a place that you can drive thru. I love to see the interest on this thread that you have with downtown Montgomery, please keep it up.
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  #2416  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2008, 2:01 PM
Chad Emerson Chad Emerson is offline
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Quote:
We do not live in some fantasy neighborhood, work in an ivory tower, and occasional soil our hands with the dirty business of building community.

I hope this is not becoming personal. I am thankful that you and your family feel such a part of the community. I respect a diversity of opinions and points of view.
Mr./Mrs. Capital Heights, this is an amazing quote. You say that you don't want things to become personal then you accuse people of living in fantasy neighborhoods and working in ivory towers and occassionally soiling their hands.

Amazingly, judgmental. As if, unless someone subscribes to your theories, they are living in a fantasy.

That said, I am sincerely interested in your strategy for revitalizing Capital Heights and other inner ring suburbs.

My earlier post mentioned all of the excellent attributes that it possesses. Great location, layout, buildings. So what is the plan to get people to return?

After all, you can't force people to live somewhere. So you have to make the place compelling enough for them to choose to live there.

Seemingly, more than many of the inner ring suburbs, Capital Heights has excellent "bones" in place.

So, please share what the strategy is to build on those bones and draw people back to that neighborhood?
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  #2417  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2008, 3:20 PM
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After all, you can't force people to live somewhere.

Correct. You cannot force people to live somewhere. It has to be their choice.

There is one thing I do that is more valuable than any ten things theorists and so called experts do: I actually choose to live in an inner city neighborhood. Rather than simply talk the talk.......I actually walk the walk.
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  #2418  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2008, 4:48 PM
Chad Emerson Chad Emerson is offline
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That's fine but neighborhoods like that won't be revitalized without an actual strategy to convince others to do the same.

Right now, despite all the abundant benefits that I've mentioned about Capital Heights (again, location/design/buildings), a very fair question is why have others not made the same decision as you?

What about Capital Heights, despite these benefits, has not drawn a critical mass back to that neighborhood?

Rather than disparage others and where they live, you should consider a strategy to answer that question. That would simply more likely to convince others to move there rather than criticizing people and where they currently live.

From my perspective, I believe the following perceptions lead people not to make the same choice you did:

1. Perception that Capital Heights is unsafe
2. Perception that there is not as good/interesting retail as there is in other inner ring suburbs like Old Cloverdale
3. Perception that the schools zoned for Capital Heights are not good

Again, I'm not saying these are all true, but that these are statements I've heard before about why people are not interested in moving to an inner ring suburb like Capital Heights.

It would seem to be a better strategic tact to create compelling responses to counter these perceptions rather than just telling others that they don't walk the walk or live in fantasy places.

If you can develop compelling responses, then those can be used as a framework to begin the revitalization process when you bundle those responses together with the existing benefits like location.

One final note: suggesting that where I currently live is a fantasy place is a really ignorant thing to say. More than anywhere else that we have lived, our neighbors here create a strong social support system. When our 1 year old was hospitalized, we had numerous neighbors offer to keep our other two children, visit us at the hospital, bring us food, pray for our child's health.

Similarly, when my wife gave birth to our third child, we received the same social support. Same thing when our friend who was 7 months pregnant passed out while at our house. Our neighbors who were paramedics rushed over to help even before the ambulance arrived. And, each year when my brother and his family return to the States on missionary furlough from Togo, West Africa, we have numerous neighbors offering to host them for meals, lodging, and the like.

Ultimately, we know everyone on our block and most of the surrounding blocks by first and last name. We have shared meals with them. Spent evenings, Bible studies, holidays, funerals, weddings, and many other types of important events with them.

We lean on them and they lean on us. We share things, work together on things, and--in general--help each other out.

That is exactly what community has historically meant. A place where you know and are supported by your neighbors.

So, before you derisively label places, you should take the time to learn about its people and how they form a community together.
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  #2419  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2008, 5:11 PM
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Your diatribe assumes none of these community characteristics occur in Capitol Heights. Who is ignorant? I recall about a year ago a Capitol Heights family was burned out of their home. I remember reading in the newspaper that the neighborhood community instantly rallied and helped this family with lodging, food, and clothes. This is but one example of community.

Your argument also assumes that noboby chooses to live in Capitol Heights. I just rode through there this morning. It appears to be a healthy neighborhood. I assume by your statements that you have a negative impression of Capitol Heights. You apparantly think it is a neighborhood in decline with no elements of community. Maybe so, although I doubt it.

I wonder, how would that neighborhood be different if ten families such as yours would move in with your wealth, your sense of community, your education, your compassion, and your passion for smart growth?

It just seems to me, and please forgive me if I am wrong, that as long as you live, and work, and worship, in a distant community - whether it be Pike Road or Prattville, or Birmingham - than all of this is merely an academic exercise.
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  #2420  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2008, 5:42 PM
Chad Emerson Chad Emerson is offline
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Mr./Mrs. Capital Heights,

I agree that all of these also occur in Capitol Heights and many of the other inner ring suburbs and, for that matter, the original downtown neighborhoods.

My "diatribe" is that you label places as "fantasy" when, in fact, real people creating real community live there.

The reason that we did not move to Capitol Heights or another inner ring suburb is because of the schools zoned for that area.

My wife and I are committed to sending our children to public schools.

However, the elementaries and other public schools zoned for these inner ring suburbs underperform other public schools in the region. Now, one may argue that if we would send our kids to those schools, then an incremental improvement could start.

However, call it whatever you want, but I'm first and foremost interested in my children getting the best possible public education regardless of where that lead us to living.

Currently, we were fortunate because our oldest just started kindergarten and was able to get into a magnet program. So, we could live in an inner ring suburb. But, then if we move there, then what if one of our next two children don't get in?

The point being is that proponents of Capitol Heights and other inner ring suburbs need to begin providing responses to these perceptions if they want to generate the critical mass to revitalize these neighborhoods even more.

You started this conversation a page ago by essentially telling me that my opinion really didn't amount to much because I didn't live where you think I should live.

Do you really think posting that kind of judgmental statement is going to attract my family or anyone else to live there? By telling us that our opinions and efforts really don't matter unless we meet your criteria.

C'mon. Let's try and get focused on the real point:

What is a Capitol Heights strategy for countering the perceptions that have limited the scope of revitalizing that historically great neighborhood? That seems like the most pressing issue at hand.
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