High-speed train service to be studied

[markbarbera]

The high speed rail line will be a direct competitor to airports like Pearson and Dorval, and the airports will not want to be served by it. In fact they would vigourously fight any attempt to include these airports on this line. The line will be designed to connect Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto via their downtowns.

The best scenario possible for Hamilton is service via an Aldershot stop, and K-W's best scenario is connecting GO/VIA service from Aldershot station.

[Mister F]

^It won't be as much of a competitor as you think. You might find this interesting:

"While it would seem that HSR and airlines would be in competition in certain markets, there exists many opportunities for coordination and cooperation.

The Union of International Railways notes that "the advantages of the train when compared with planes are especially strong when travel times lie below 3 hours and distances under 800 km/h (sic) [480 miles], but rail-air complementarity really starts to come into its own when the rail journey section is combined with a medium or long-haul flight."15 A Lufthansa passenger can check in air baggage at the Stuttgart rail station, and take the 1h30m train trip to connect with a Lufthansa flight departing from Frankfurt. The European railway system feeds into the airlines' hub as another spoke. This enables the airlines to concentrate on more profitable longer haul and international flights."

http://lomaprieta.sierraclub.org/HighSpeedRail.html

Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit

Kitchener could be connected to the system through Hamilton instead of running two duplicitous networks. It only makes economic sense to run the high speed service along the electrified GO line. Kitchener first needs to be serviced with conventional GO train service since it has become a major part of the GTA commuter shed. The city has yet to prove that it is amenable to such rail services. This would not preclude Kitchener as a future destination for high speed rail.

It wouldn't be two duplicitous networks. One line would serve Hamilton, Niagara, and Buffalo, and the other would serve Pearson and southwestern Ontario. Hell, the Niagara line could even get built before the SW Ontario line. There's no reason that GO transit should be a precursor to high speed rail. That was exactly my point earlier - Kitchener's better suited to intercity rail than commuter rail.

So your proposal is to have the line to Windsor go through Hamilton with a spur line from Hamilton to Kitchener. Any future Niagara/Buffalo line would go to Hamilton as well, essentially making Hamilton the hub of the system. That makes no sense. First, there absolutely should be some kind of rail service between Kitchener and Hamilton, that I agree with (transportation between those two cities is awful), but most intercity passengers in Kitchener are going to Toronto, not Hamilton. Same thing with passengers form Niagara Region or Buffalo. Not only that, but your proposal leaves out Pearson altogether (more on that later). Toronto is the logical hub of the system, and it's where the lines should meet, not Hamilton.

Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit

North Americans will not be as amenable to high speed rail as the Europeans. I again state my case about this system connecting the cores of our urban centers over airports. Hub airports like London and Hamilton will lobby heavily against the system if it is conceived as a method to reduce connecting flights. These airports are trying to conduct business might I remind you.

No need to make this a competition of city cores versus airports. Both can and should be served. I think you're wrong about North Americans not being amenable to rail. If it's a superior mode of travel, people will use it.

London and Hamilton aren't hub airports. It's a hub and spoke system, and the hubs are Toronto, Montreal, etc. London and Hamilton are spokes. Passenger rail is the ideal form of transport over distances of a few hundred km. It's just as fast and more efficient, safe, clean, reliable, and convenient than air travel. High speed rail is can reduce greenhouse gases by huge amounts, according to the 1998 Lynx study, by 20%. Think about it, 20%, entirely through big reductions in driving and flying. It's ridiculous there are so many flights on routes like Ottawa-Montreal.

Edit: Here's something else I foudn WRT railways and airlines cooperating, and it's a great idea. From an editorial in the Montreal Gazette:

Airlines and politicians are legitimately worried about the risk of destabilizing the fragile Canadian air transport system. The way out of this problem is not for lobbyists to block high-speed rail, but rather for airlines to negotiate favorable terms for using high-speed trains to transport passengers bearing airline tickets. This is common practice in Western Europe and of benefit to traveller and airline alike.

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimate...&f=45&t=000443

Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit

Kitchener first needs to be serviced with conventional GO train service since it has become a major part of the GTA commuter shed.

A major part? Last time I checked, Kitchener was on the fringes of the GTA commutershed.

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/archive...l/sprawl06.htm

"Census data reveal that Toronto and Peel Region lure 6,505 commuters from Waterloo Region.

Toronto and Peel send 1,485 commuters to Waterloo Region."

Given we have a labour force of about 250,000, that doesn't sound like a major part to me. You can also look at it through the perspective of what percentage of the people working in the GTA live in Waterloo Region. I would think that they are the exception to the rule. And it's still regarded as extreme commuting.

Despite this, there are probably enough commuters in absolute volume to warrant a limited service GO train with relatively few and distant stops west of Georgetown. One issue I see is the travel time. A: The GO train is slow and needs to be electrified. B: If the GO-train is also stopping in Guelph, Rockwood, and Acton, that also compromises the speed of the trip, which would probably take 2 hours or more.

Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit

The city has yet to prove that it is amenable to such rail services. This would not preclude Kitchener as a future destination for high speed rail.

You're right, but Hamilton isn't well served by rail either, so how do you know it's amenable? That's the same mentality that says, "transit won't work here, we are a city of drivers so let's just widen the roads and not change how we do things". Believe me, it's been said before.

[Jon Dalton]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

The best scenario possible for Hamilton is service via an Aldershot stop, and K-W's best scenario is connecting GO/VIA service from Aldershot station.

I doubt there would ever be a high speed stop at Aldershot because it's too close to Toronto. The train would barely have time to accelerate. Hamiltonians will just have to bite it and take the VIA to London or Toronto.

[HAMRetrofit]

Originally Posted by Cambridgite

A major part? Last time I checked, Kitchener was on the fringes of the GTA commutershed.

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/archive...l/sprawl06.htm

"Census data reveal that Toronto and Peel Region lure 6,505 commuters from Waterloo Region.

This is compounding a major problem. Kitchener, Guelph, and the sprawling towns in Halton all have growing commuter bases that are heavily congesting the 401 every weekday morning and evening. This is the major freight shipment route into the GTA and Canada. It is causing unacceptable shipment delays in the city. Something needs to be done about this. Kitchener needs GO service to get these drivers off the roads. Put them on buses, trains, or horse and buggy I don't care. Get them off the road.

Originally Posted by Cambridgite

You're right, but Hamilton isn't well served by rail either, so how do you know it's amenable? That's the same mentality that says, "transit won't work here, we are a city of drivers so let's just widen the roads and not change how we do things". Believe me, it's been said before.

Hamilton is already served by GO train. Rail travel there already works. It is the most logical hub since it is situated in between Niagara and Kitchener. It is also receiving an electrified line via the Lakeshore line. This will be the likely corridor for the high speed intercity rail line. It is already more heavily populated and much more heavily traveled. The major stations would obviously be in Toronto and Montreal.

What will likely be built is high speed rail between Toronto and Montreal with electrified spurs to Ottawa and Hamilton. I doubt this project will ever extend all the way down to Windsor. Its expansion will depend on how successful the Toronto to Montreal route is.

Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit

This is compounding a major problem. Kitchener, Guelph, and the sprawling towns in Halton all have growing commuter bases that are heavily congesting the 401 every weekday morning and evening. This is the major freight shipment route into the GTA and Canada. It is causing unacceptable shipment delays in the city. Something needs to be done about this. Kitchener needs GO service to get these drivers off the roads. Put them on buses, trains, or horse and buggy I don't care. Get them off the road.

I've been on the 401 between Cambridge and Milton in both rush hours before. It's really not that bad until you get into Mississauga or you get into Kitchener (401/highway 8 area) going the other way. There is a pretty major lull in between.

The issue with a GO train is that it only serves to bring commuters to downtown Toronto. Most of the people who commute to the GTA do not work downtown, but in suburban regions like Peel and Halton. Until you provide me with data, other than anecdotal evidence, showing how the commuter population (Kitchener->Downtown Toronto) is exploding, I have little reason to believe that a GO-train will solve the traffic woes of the 401. Trucks make up a solid proportion of the traffic on the 401, yet they can't ride the train either.

Explain to me how a downtown with barely any employment growth (Toronto) can continue to be the destination for just about every new house being built in the vast area of Southern Ontario, when most of the employment growth is happening in outer areas.

I think GO transit needs to change its approach as the influence of downtown Toronto is waning. Rather than only being a park and ride, it should connect downtown areas together and try to influence land use. If a GO-train ran from downtown Kitchener and also had a reverse service, it would make it a lot more accessible and could encourage new office developments downtown, rather than at highway exits. GO buses could connect suburban locations together. For example, Waterloo Region could be connected to Guelph, Halton, and Peel Regions through GO busses, providing a connection between transit systems that are seen as separate entities.

Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit

Hamilton is already served by GO train. Rail travel there already works. It is the most logical hub since it is situated in between Niagara and Kitchener. It is also receiving an electrified line via the Lakeshore line. This will be the likely corridor for the high speed intercity rail line. It is already more heavily populated and much more heavily traveled. The major stations would obviously be in Toronto and Montreal.

Yeah, while it's a logical hub, you have to create a new track if you want to run service between Hamilton and Kitchener. Check it out on Google Maps. There's no track to service that route. I still think two lines make more sense when the expansion would theoretically take place. Express buses could run between Hamilton and Kitchener. Of course, phase 1 would be Toronto-Montreal-Ottawa.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit

What will likely be built is high speed rail between Toronto and Montreal with electrified spurs to Ottawa and Hamilton. I doubt this project will ever extend all the way down to Windsor. Its expansion will depend on how successful the Toronto to Montreal route is.

Ottawa would likely be on the main line and not a spur, at least that's what the last study proposed. Going from Kingston to Ottawa to Montreal is almost as direct as following the St. Lawrence to Montreal, and it adds a million potential riders.

I actually the think that once the first phase is built, people will wonder how they ever got along without it, and future phases will be easy to get approved. I have no doubt that other markets like Hamilton, Kitchener, London, Quebec City, Pearson, and even Buffalo will all compete for the next extension.

Originally Posted by Cambridgite

a downtown with barely any employment growth (Toronto)

Actually downtown Toronto employment grew by 8000 people last year, and it's been growing steadily for the last 5 years.

Originally Posted by Mister F

Actually downtown Toronto employment grew by 8000 people last year, and it's been growing steadily for the last 5 years.

Yes. But....

A. It's starting from a huge base. Somewhere in the vicinity of 400,000.

B. Compare that to the employment growth experienced in the greater golden horseshoe.

C. There's way more condos being built in downtown Toronto. I'd imagine many of the people working in these new jobs are living downtown or living in suburbs that are closer in.

[HAMRetrofit]

Originally Posted by Cambridgite

I've been on the 401 between Cambridge and Milton in both rush hours before. It's really not that bad until you get into Mississauga or you get into Kitchener (401/highway 8 area) going the other way. There is a pretty major lull in between.

The 401 is backed up to the escarpment outside Milton most mornings. I used to travel this route once a week to London during rush hour. This is only getting worse. The trucks are backed up for miles causing unnecessary economic and environmental harm.

Originally Posted by Cambridgite

The issue with a GO train is that it only serves to bring commuters to downtown Toronto. Most of the people who commute to the GTA do not work downtown, but in suburban regions like Peel and Halton. Until you provide me with data, other than anecdotal evidence, showing how the commuter population (Kitchener->Downtown Toronto) is exploding, I have little reason to believe that a GO-train will solve the traffic woes of the 401. Trucks make up a solid proportion of the traffic on the 401, yet they can't ride the train either.

This is the reality that Kitchener commuters need to face. Freight trucks are not going anywhere and they need to access industry. Hamilton GO commuters don't only travel into downtown Toronto they also travel into Oakville, Mississauga, and Etobicoke, and transfer onto local transit. Extending GO transit into Kitchener will make this type of commuting possible for the nearly 7000 persons from Kitchener that are driving to the GTA.

Originally Posted by Cambridgite

I think GO transit needs to change its approach as the influence of downtown Toronto is waning. Rather than only being a park and ride, it should connect downtown areas together and try to influence land use. If a GO-train ran from downtown Kitchener and also had a reverse service, it would make it a lot more accessible and could encourage new office developments downtown, rather than at highway exits.

Don't quit your day job. Reality does not support this idea. I would not count on downtown Kitchener becoming a destination for reverse commuters from the GTA. The best hope for its survival are loft, condo, and university projects to become a destination for people in Kitchener and maybe some commuters that travel to the GTA. .

Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit

The 401 is backed up to the escarpment outside Milton most mornings. I used to travel this route once a week to London during rush hour. This is only getting worse. The trucks are backed up for miles causing unnecessary economic and environmental harm.

I've never seen that happen before, but I guess you drive the route more often than I do.

Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit

This is the reality that Kitchener commuters need to face. Freight trucks are not going anywhere and they need to access industry. Hamilton GO commuters don't only travel into downtown Toronto they also travel into Oakville, Mississauga, and Etobicoke, and transfer onto local transit. Extending GO transit into Kitchener will make this type of commuting possible for the nearly 7000 persons from Kitchener that are driving to the GTA.

That's what I'm saying. GO busses could connect Kitchener with Guelph, Milton, and Mississauga, possibly even Hamilton. GO-train is a maybe, but if it takes 2+ hours because of low speeds and frequent stops, I'm skeptical about how many people will ride it.

Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit

Don't quit your day job. Reality does not support this idea. I would not count on downtown Kitchener becoming a destination for reverse commuters from the GTA. The best hope for its survival are loft, condo, and university projects to become a destination for people in Kitchener and maybe some commuters that travel to the GTA. .

Well, the local busses are packed going into downtown Kitchener, and once we start 5 minute service frequencies into the core, there is only mass transit left as a solution. The problem is that GRT is limited to an arbitrary boundary that is the Region of Waterloo. While I think you're right that few people would travel to downtown Kitchener from the GTA, I'm sure you'd get some riders from Guelph. Don't forget that, in the future, the GO-train will probably be connected to the LRT, making it possible for easy travel to a lot of other destinations as well. It would also help solve the problem of overcrowded Greyhounds dropping off students who are going home to Toronto on weekends. A GO-train has a ton of potential if it is at all competitive with car-travel.

And what are you saying? Development in Kitchener should be a continuation of the status-quo? Are you failing to see the link between transportation infrastructure and land-use? Accessibility is an important consideration and I'd much rather see the downtowns of second-tier cities become major business hubs, rather than being neglected for the presitige of the exit ramp. Places like Mississauga and North York (along the subway) have pulled "downtowns" out of their asses, so why can't we use a major regional commuter rail system to intensify existing downtowns other than Toronto's? Cities like Kitchener and Hamilton obviously wouldn't be served as well as Toronto, but it would leave us with something to build on.