$14 Billion For Transit

[Stingray2004]

Interesting statements from today's Globe & Mail:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You would have to go back more than 40 years to see infrastructure of this magnitude and importance," said Norman Ruff, a political scientist at the University of Victoria, referring to the big hydro projects of the 1960s.

Warren Gill, a transportation-studies professor at Simon Fraser University who has focused on transportation policy for more than 30 years, called the program "infrastructure for the ages."

"It means Vancouver will be a functional city long into the future. People who come to Vancouver will be able to get around in the city just as they would in some of the world's great cities - New York, London, Chicago," Prof. Gill said.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

Interesting statements from today's Globe & Mail:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You would have to go back more than 40 years to see infrastructure of this magnitude and importance," said Norman Ruff, a political scientist at the University of Victoria, referring to the big hydro projects of the 1960s.

Warren Gill, a transportation-studies professor at Simon Fraser University who has focused on transportation policy for more than 30 years, called the program "infrastructure for the ages."

"It means Vancouver will be a functional city long into the future. People who come to Vancouver will be able to get around in the city just as they would in some of the world's great cities - New York, London, Chicago," Prof. Gill said.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't agree with "long into the future"... we technically needed many of the projects already: such as the UBC M-Line Extension, 95 B-Line (Hastings), 91 B-Line (41st Ave), and Evergreen Line (SKYTRAIN)

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by Hourglass

Actually, it was Arthur Erickson who said it....

then Arthur Erickson is wrong......and shouldn't give up his day job to make ridiculous population estimates.

[officedweller]

Nice job on the render.

Originally Posted by deasine

Well the Mark I trains can run single - they just would never do such a stupid thing. And we have seen TransLink run five-car Mark I trains in the past, during last year's snowstorm after the SkyTrain breakdown.

Weird. I've always heard of them being married pairs (i.e. each single car only has a cab at one end). I know Detroit runs single cars, but they don't reverse - they just run one way around a loop. JFK Airtrain are single cars but they are custom MKIIs.

[deasine]

I'm pretty sure it was a 5-car Mark I... but it was stormy too so it might have been 6. But I think I saw 5 because from 29th Avenue on the secondary entrance to the North side of the platform, you can get a clear view of the trains below as well as the platform. If it was a 6-car Mark I at 29th Avenue or ANY SkyTrain station, then the entire length of the train should be the entire length of the platform? But it wasn't. And the last train was "partially" sheltered from the roof (29th avenue's roof does not cover the entire platform)

I thought Detroit uses two cars.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_People_Mover

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by deasine

Well the Mark I trains can run single - they just would never do such a stupid thing. And we have seen TransLink run five-car Mark I trains in the past, during last year's snowstorm after the SkyTrain breakdown.

Waterfront Station platform can be extended. The walkway between the Sinclair Centre/Waterfront Mall Exit (on the West side) is pretty long and I think it was designed for a platform.

With regards to the Burrard and Granville stations - yes that would be pretty expensive and tough. You cannot extend the platform westwards at Burrard as there an immediate turn, so the only option is East. And also note between Burrard and Granville - it isn't completely straight. There is a slight turn too but I'm not sure where in between.

I like the one-way platform movement. They were thinking of doing that at Metrotown - my first reaction is do it at Broadway first.

that's what i thought too...i've seen 5-car Mark I trains so i thought an odd number car train would be possible.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but i think i read somewhere the recently built third entrance for Granville Station cost something like $20 million as it involved a lot of mining work.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by alta-bc

Here we go!

incredible!!! thanks for doing that!

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

that's what i thought too...i've seen 5-car Mark I trains so i thought an odd number car train would be possible.

OK - I could be wrong on that - maybe a dummy car is in the middle?

[djh]

I can't understand why the intended finish date for the UBC Line is 2020.

Surely, as all the politicians, consultants and many transit riders have said, it is needed ASAP - in fact, as urgently as the Evergreen Line is needed (if not more so). So why wait 12 years? The Canada Line was called for since the '80s, and when the politicians got the kick up the bum called the Winter Olympics, the whole line got approved, designed and built in about 5 years. Should we not expect the same with the UBC Line?

On top of that, if we leave it for 12 years, inflation will be so huge that the project is guaranteed to come in well over the 2008 budget (look at all the Olympic projections and how far off they are after just 2 or 3 years of inflation). Plus, if there is a change of government and the project isn't under way, it is guaranteed the new government will, just by principle, stall or kill the project.

[Hot Rod]

I think he meant by 2020, expecially since in the next breath he said today that he wants to start as soon as possible (to take advantage of the Canada Line TBM, no doubt.

Hopefully tunnel construction will get fast tracked and we can get M-Line service to Broadway-City Hall to have a transfer with Canada Line by the 2010 Olympics. It would be so nice to have that and we wouldn't necessarily need to have the Main Street M-Line station complete by then, it could be finished afterward (yet the trains run thru anyways).

On another similar note;

What I am wondering, after we build to at least Cambie will they drop the M-Line from the concurrent Expo routing? Am I the only person who thinks the M-Line should go from Columbia around to Commercial Drive, then on to UBC (and not the current alignment starting from downtown). ....

It would be very very confusing to have two Main Street stations and two Broadway stations on ONE line (if we kept the current routing, this would be the case). And, given the Expo Line expansion I hope it will be a single line running from downtown to the Surrey/Langley terminus with the M-Line running from 'a newly created' Columbia transfer station/terminus to UBC, with transfers to the Expo at Commercial Station and to the Canada Line at Cambie station (the station renamed to Cambie-City Hall for the M-Line alignment).

This also considering the Expo Line would have longer trains (up to 6 MkII, 10 MkI) and 120m platforms while I'd imagine the M-Line would stay below the 4 MkII/6 MkI limit with 80m platforms.

With this, we'd have four discreet lines, Expo-Line (downtown/Waterfront to Surrey/Langley terminus), M-Line (Columbia to UBC South), Canada-Line (downtown/Waterfront to YVR or Richmond Centre), and the Evergreen Line. Chosing this scheme, we could have a comprehensive system where each line could name it's station somewhat more independent than the other lines, which would reduce confusion (instead of "next stop, Broadway station"... WHICH one??).

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by djh

I can't understand why the intended finish date for the UBC Line is 2020.

Surely, as all the politicians, consultants and many transit riders have said, it is needed ASAP - in fact, as urgently as the Evergreen Line is needed (if not more so). So why wait 12 years? The Canada Line was called for since the '80s, and when the politicians got the kick up the bum called the Winter Olympics, the whole line got approved, designed and built in about 5 years. Should we not expect the same with the UBC Line?

On top of that, if we leave it for 12 years, inflation will be so huge that the project is guaranteed to come in well over the 2008 budget (look at all the Olympic projections and how far off they are after just 2 or 3 years of inflation). Plus, if there is a change of government and the project isn't under way, it is guaranteed the new government will, just by principle, stall or kill the project.

i believe Falcon said construction would begin almost immediately, to use the synergies of the Canada Line construction to their advantage as much as possible. i'm guessing once Sweet Leilani is done with the Canada Line this spring, she could be heading over to the False Creek Flats to start boring the M-Line UBC extension...possibly as soon as 2009?

i would think the UBC line will be opened in phases. it will reach UBC in 2020.

[officedweller]

I would expect Sweet Leilani to bore the Evergreen Line first, then over to the M-Line, hence the delay.

WRT M-Line routing after the extensions - it would depend on whether the Evergreen Line is Skytrain or not. If it is Skytrain, I could see through routing from Coquitlam to/from UBC. I could see a branch off the Expo Line terminating at Lougheed Town Centre (since it has the extra track/platform to facilitate reversing).

If Evergreen is LRT, the problem with terminating a service at Columbia is that there is no siding to reverse the train. Reversing a train takes longer than running a through service, so reversing a train at Columbia would end up delaying trains to/from Surrey/Langley(!). Even if Evergreen is LRT, I could still see them running a branch off the Expo Line terminating at Lougheed Town Centre and terminating the M-Line at Lougheed as well (i.e. interlining/reversing two less frequent services is easier than interlining/reversing on the Expo Line - each line could take opposite sides of the platform as its terminus).
Good poiunt about different train lengths. Lougheed is already long enough for the 6 car MKII. So either they run short trains that go to Lougheed (this is likely given low demand on the route(?)), or they also lengthen Braid and Sapperton platforms.
Of course an alternative is to add a platform at Columbia, but that probably isn't necessary if the transfer can take place at Lougheed.

[Jared]

Originally Posted by Hot Rod

I think he meant by 2020, expecially since in the next breath he said today that he wants to start as soon as possible (to take advantage of the Canada Line TBM, no doubt.

Hopefully tunnel construction will get fast tracked and we can get M-Line service to Broadway-City Hall to have a transfer with Canada Line by the 2010 Olympics. It would be so nice to have that and we wouldn't necessarily need to have the Main Street M-Line station complete by then, it could be finished afterward (yet the trains run thru anyways).

On another similar note;

What I am wondering, after we build to at least Cambie will they drop the M-Line from the concurrent Expo routing? Am I the only person who thinks the M-Line should go from Columbia around to Commercial Drive, then on to UBC (and not the current alignment starting from downtown). ....

It would be very very confusing to have two Main Street stations and two Broadway stations on ONE line (if we kept the current routing, this would be the case). And, given the Expo Line expansion I hope it will be a single line running from downtown to the Surrey/Langley terminus with the M-Line running from 'a newly created' Columbia transfer station/terminus to UBC, with transfers to the Expo at Commercial Station and to the Canada Line at Cambie station (the station renamed to Cambie-City Hall for the M-Line alignment).

This also considering the Expo Line would have longer trains (up to 6 MkII, 10 MkI) and 120m platforms while I'd imagine the M-Line would stay below the 4 MkII/6 MkI limit with 80m platforms.

With this, we'd have four discreet lines, Expo-Line (downtown/Waterfront to Surrey/Langley terminus), M-Line (Columbia to UBC South), Canada-Line (downtown/Waterfront to YVR or Richmond Centre), and the Evergreen Line. Chosing this scheme, we could have a comprehensive system where each line could name it's station somewhat more independent than the other lines, which would reduce confusion (instead of "next stop, Broadway station"... WHICH one??).

WRT station naming, it's not like Vancouver is the first city to have this.
For example, Toronto simply has an St. Clair Station and a St. Clair West Station. Problem solved. The other method is to name it after a local landmark or whatever.


WRT Line routing:

I'd like to see (assuming EGL is Skytrain):

Expo Line: Waterfront - King George/Guildford
Millenium Line: Waterfront - Columbia - UBC
Evergreen Line: Coquitlam - UBC

I know it means the Millenium Line makes a bit of a stupid route, but I really dont see the point is turning them around at Lougheed; I don't see a benefit, but I do see an inconvinience.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Hot Rod

I think he meant by 2020, expecially since in the next breath he said today that he wants to start as soon as possible (to take advantage of the Canada Line TBM, no doubt.

Hopefully tunnel construction will get fast tracked and we can get M-Line service to Broadway-City Hall to have a transfer with Canada Line by the 2010 Olympics. It would be so nice to have that and we wouldn't necessarily need to have the Main Street M-Line station complete by then, it could be finished afterward (yet the trains run thru anyways).

On another similar note;

What I am wondering, after we build to at least Cambie will they drop the M-Line from the concurrent Expo routing? Am I the only person who thinks the M-Line should go from Columbia around to Commercial Drive, then on to UBC (and not the current alignment starting from downtown). ....

It would be very very confusing to have two Main Street stations and two Broadway stations on ONE line (if we kept the current routing, this would be the case). And, given the Expo Line expansion I hope it will be a single line running from downtown to the Surrey/Langley terminus with the M-Line running from 'a newly created' Columbia transfer station/terminus to UBC, with transfers to the Expo at Commercial Station and to the Canada Line at Cambie station (the station renamed to Cambie-City Hall for the M-Line alignment).

This also considering the Expo Line would have longer trains (up to 6 MkII, 10 MkI) and 120m platforms while I'd imagine the M-Line would stay below the 4 MkII/6 MkI limit with 80m platforms.

With this, we'd have four discreet lines, Expo-Line (downtown/Waterfront to Surrey/Langley terminus), M-Line (Columbia to UBC South), Canada-Line (downtown/Waterfront to YVR or Richmond Centre), and the Evergreen Line. Chosing this scheme, we could have a comprehensive system where each line could name it's station somewhat more independent than the other lines, which would reduce confusion (instead of "next stop, Broadway station"... WHICH one??).

Well see I sort of agree with you - to a certain extent. I would like renaming on the stations, such as Broadway to Broadway - Commercial Drive and vice versa. But I think we need BETTER signage THROUGHOUT the system. People get lost around Commercial Drive station: there are no signs for trains bound for VCC/Clark and Columbia! Automated messages have been updated, but there isn't enough! Where's the one for Columbia. They can easily have something like:

"The next station is Columbia. Transfer point to the Expo Line. Passengers to Surrey, please change here." (M-Line from Sapperton bound to Waterfront)
"The next station is Columbia. Transfer point to the Millennium Line."(E-Line train from Scott Road bound to Waterfront)
"The next station is Columbia. Transfer point to the Expo Line. Passengers to Surrey, please exit this train, then take the next train bound for King George" (M-Line train bound for VCC/Clark)
"The next station is Columbia. Transfer point to the Millennium Line. Passengers to Burnaby and Vancouver, please exit this train, then take the next train bound for VCC/Clark" (E-Line train bound for King George)

We also need automated messages AT THE STATIONS.


As for the seperation of the M-Line and E-Line. If they do a complete Columbia Station overhaul - I would agree. The current configuration is stupid if we were to do that. How about a station where there are three tracks with two platforms:

| T to Waterfront | Platform | T to VCC/Clark | Platform | T to King George |

That way, you can have people EASILY transfer for the Millennium Line train by just crossing the platform. Very effective, efficient, and HONG KONG =P

[officedweller]

The only benefit or short-turning trains at Lougheed would be to concentrate frequency on the Expo Line rather than the M-Line. That really depends on the demand between Columbia and Lougheed.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by deasine

How about a station where there are three tracks with two platforms:

| T to Waterfront | Platform | T to VCC/Clark | Platform | T to King George |

That way, you can have people EASILY transfer for the Millennium Line train by just crossing the platform. Very effective, efficient, and HONG KONG =P

But you're driving on the left!
You'd still need to change platforms to go from VCC to King George. But it saves one movement.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by officedweller

The only benefit or short-turning trains at Lougheed would be to concentrate frequency on the Expo Line rather than the M-Line. That really depends on the demand between Columbia and Lougheed.

Braid station can get really busy - many tri-cities routes go there.

[Jared]

Depending on how much renovation is going on in Columbia station, maybe they'll end up moving to a middle platform setup? It would hopefully result in less crowding of the stairs if people can just hop accross the platform to change trains.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by deasine

Braid station can get really busy - many tri-cities routes go there.

Hmm. That means that riders would not like a forced transfer at Lougheed (one stop away). I'll bet there's a switch at Braid (it was a terminus for a short time). It could be the terminus for the lines.

[Nutterbug]

What's so bad about the looping M-Line?

If traffic on the E-Line is heavier north of the Fraser than in Surrey, what's wrong with using it to help with the load, not to mention giving those in eastern New West and Burnaby a direct ride to New West, South Burnaby and such?

It'll be needed even more if the Evergreen ever feeds into it.