General Update/Rumour thread [Urban Ottawa]

[Acajack]

For some odd reason, the type of NIMBYism people are referring to here is relatively rare on the Gatineau side of the river.

Just down the street from where I live, you have new 2500-sq.-ft. single-family homes with stone façades that sit about 100 m from $120,000 condos. Of course, all of this was built at the same time, so one could make the argument that people knew exactly what they were buying into.

But... if I look just a few streets over, the biggest houses in the neighbourhood (worth between $600,000 and $800,000, in Gatineau prices), are less than 100 m from a bunch of public, rent-to-income housing blocks (known in Quebec as HLMs). Now the HLMs were built quite a few years after the luxury houses, but when they were announced and built, not a peep was heard from the neighbours. And there wasn’t a flurry of “A VENDRE” (FOR SALE) signs either.

This is even more surprising when you consider the planning framework in Québec can actually be used to foster NIMBYism. When someone wants to build something near you, there has to be a public notice, after which locals have a specified period of time to sign a “register” at a nearby city service centre. If a sufficient number (predetermined) of people sign the register, then this triggers a referendum in the local area (we in Québec love our referendums!), and the project can actually be rejected by this neighbourhood referendum.

And it doesn’t just apply to private developments. An expensive traffic calming project (that the city wanted to bill us for) was actually overturned by residents in my old neighbourhood several years ago.

[clynnog]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is even more surprising when you consider the planning framework in Québec can actually be used to foster NIMBYism. When someone wants to build something near you, there has to be a public notice, after which locals have a specified period of time to sign a “register” at a nearby city service centre. If a sufficient number (predetermined) of people sign the register, then this triggers a referendum in the local area (we in Québec love our referendums!), and the project can actually be rejected by this neighbourhood referendum.

And it doesn’t just apply to private developments. An expensive traffic calming project (that the city wanted to bill us for) was actually overturned by residents in my old neighbourhood several years ago.

I know that private sector clients based in Montreal expanding into Ottawa complain about the process/length of time/costs etc of building in Ottawa (and Ontario in general), but if the scenario is as indicated the QC process can be quite cumbersome as well. I'm surprised that there aren't a lot of referendums. I know of one seniors builder (based in Montreal) who were wanting to expand an existing building in Sherbrooke who literally had a VP go door to door on summer evenings explaining the proposal to the neighbourhood. In the end, the proposal passed. If this type of system were instituted in Ontario (highly unlikely) I would demand better notification signs that clearly describe the proposal in both numeric and visual terms.

Acajack...do you think that less developments go the referendum route because people in QC have more of a 'live and let live' attitude and less of a home ownership obsession/history than those in Ontario.?

[Mille Sabords]

Originally Posted by Acajack

For some odd reason, the type of NIMBYism people are referring to here is relatively rare on the Gatineau side of the river.

Just down the street from where I live, you have new 2500-sq.-ft. single-family homes with stone façades that sit about 100 m from $120,000 condos. Of course, all of this was built at the same time, so one could make the argument that people knew exactly what they were buying into.

But... if I look just a few streets over, the biggest houses in the neighbourhood (worth between $600,000 and $800,000, in Gatineau prices), are less than 100 m from a bunch of public, rent-to-income housing blocks (known in Quebec as HLMs). Now the HLMs were built quite a few years after the luxury houses, but when they were announced and built, not a peep was heard from the neighbours. And there wasn’t a flurry of “A VENDRE” (FOR SALE) signs either.

This is even more surprising when you consider the planning framework in Québec can actually be used to foster NIMBYism. When someone wants to build something near you, there has to be a public notice, after which locals have a specified period of time to sign a “register” at a nearby city service centre. If a sufficient number (predetermined) of people sign the register, then this triggers a referendum in the local area (we in Québec love our referendums!), and the project can actually be rejected by this neighbourhood referendum.

And it doesn’t just apply to private developments. An expensive traffic calming project (that the city wanted to bill us for) was actually overturned by residents in my old neighbourhood several years ago.

Interesting, for sure. Latin cultures congregate, WASP cultures segregate. At least that seems to be the way things are around here. Even though there are some parts of the world where WASP's are actually capable of living close to one another (England, for instance).

To all our WASP friends on the Forum - please don't take offence to this, it's meant to be humourous - just make sure you don't grow old like that!

[Acajack]

A few years ago, not too far from my place on Montée Paiement in Gatineau, a rumour went around that a vacant lot would be the future location for a strip joint. Neighbours started talking about going to sign the register.

In fact, the rumour was false anf the project was a large Métro supermarket, which actually opened in 2007.

But the people from Métro were actually so concerned that they held a town hall meeting in the area to fully explain their project. After that, opposition fizzled out and few people if any signed the register.

[Acajack]

It’s only been in the last 40 years or so that substantial numbers of francophones in this country (incl. those in Québec) have become prosperous enough to buy fairly luxurious single family homes. Many of these people living in these homes may have themselves grown up in less spacious surroundings, or at least their parents or grandparents likely did.

And even today your average francophone is probably more likely to have, friends, acquaintances or family members who are renters/apartment dwellers. (Québec has by far the highest proportion of renters in the country.)

[clynnog]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A few years ago, not too far from my place on Montée Paiement in Gatineau, a rumour went around that a vacant lot would be the future location for a strip joint. Neighbours started talking about going to sign the register.

I would have thought that people in Gatineau would welcome a strip joint in their area which would avoid young girls crossing the bridges into Ottawa for employment. (just kidding, sarcasm mode on, but there do seem to be a high % of Gatineau girls in the various Ottawa SJ's...or so I've heard, never having been in one as I am a WASP).

[clynnog]

Originally Posted by Mille Sabords

Interesting, for sure. Latin cultures congregate, WASP cultures segregate. At least that seems to be the way things are around here. Even though there are some parts of the world where WASP's are actually capable of living close to one another (England, for instance).

To all our WASP friends on the Forum - please don't take offence to this, it's meant to be humourous - just make sure you don't grow old like that!

As a WASP (and the purest kind as I was born in the example where WASP's live close to one another), I don't take offense. In England, many people would probably prefer to live further apart, but due to the tight urban boundaries on Cities and the high cost of country properties, they make do with the situation. Most towns in England have very defined edges....one minute you are driving past semi's/row houses/pubs/townhouses/shops and the next minute you are out in the fields with cows/sheep...none of the speculative land on the fringes that we see here in Ottawa.

If you were to live in London and see what you get on a /ft2 (or /m2) basis for the 4 walls etc, and you compared it to the equivalent house in Ottawa, there would be 1 way traffic westbound across the Atlantic. However, you can't put a price on history,culture,liveable density, public transit, footie recognized as part of the culture, quirky sense of humour that Ottawa doesn't have in abundance (despite the plus points of London, YOW is for me).

[Mille Sabords]

Originally Posted by clynnog

In England, many people would probably prefer to live further apart, but due to the tight urban boundaries on Cities and the high cost of country properties, they make do with the situation. Most towns in England have very defined edges....one minute you are driving past semi's/row houses/pubs/townhouses/shops and the next minute you are out in the fields with cows/sheep...none of the speculative land on the fringes that we see here in Ottawa.

If you were to live in London and see what you get on a /ft2 (or /m2) basis for the 4 walls etc, and you compared it to the equivalent house in Ottawa, there would be 1 way traffic westbound across the Atlantic. However, you can't put a price on history,culture,liveable density, public transit, footie recognized as part of the culture, quirky sense of humour that Ottawa doesn't have in abundance (despite the plus points of London, YOW is for me).

Then it's time to bring all those things to Ottawa, with the help of our WASP friends from across the pond. (I'd sooner go drinking with a bunch of Brits, given a choice, exactly because of the dry sense of humour). Let's start a massive recruitment campaign for British immigrants! (their French is actually quite understandable when they're drunk, as is their Spanish, Italian, German...)

[Ottawade]

It was mentioned on the CBC this morning that Charlesfort intends to build on the site of the Ottawa public library at Bank & Sunnyside. Charlesfort stated that the site and the parking lot beside it (the auto garage?) are underutilized. As a part the deal Charlesfort would donate the bottom floor of the building to the city for use as a library. This would increase the size of the library in the process.

The CBC said the only other concern is that the hight restriction is 7 stories and that neighborhood and that the NIMBY's would potentially shoot down anything larger.

Between the church across the street, the canal and its raise elevation that site would have a pretty good view on the higher floors.

[clynnog]

Originally Posted by Ottawade

It was mentioned on the CBC this morning that Charlesfort intends to build on the site of the Ottawa public library at Bank & Sunnyside. Charlesfort stated that the site and the parking lot beside it (the auto garage?) are underutilized.

The public library on Rideau (@ Friel) got a fresh impetus of patrons when the Rideau Gardens seniors building was constructed and connected at the rear of the library branch. It was a win/win situation for both parties. In that case none of the library building was destroyed/modified....their parking area was transferred to lands now owned by the seniors building.

[Mille Sabords]

Originally Posted by Ottawade

It was mentioned on the CBC this morning that Charlesfort intends to build on the site of the Ottawa public library at Bank & Sunnyside. Charlesfort stated that the site and the parking lot beside it (the auto garage?) are underutilized. As a part the deal Charlesfort would donate the bottom floor of the building to the city for use as a library. This would increase the size of the library in the process.

The CBC said the only other concern is that the hight restriction is 7 stories and that neighborhood and that the NIMBY's would potentially shoot down anything larger.

Between the church across the street, the canal and its raise elevation that site would have a pretty good view on the higher floors.

Very good move by Charlesfort. This project would bring a mature type of partnership and enhance the neighbourhood in all aspects. Charlesfort is one of the few (if not the only one) actually making an effort at beautiful architecture. I hope the NIMBY's will be able to trade that for a building taller than a blade of grass.

[Aylmer]

We should make it law that people can't decreasse the size of a building unless council finds a concret reason.

[Ottawade]

I think on the whole it is a good move by both Charlesfort and the library, but at the same time that building, even at 7 stories, really would dwarf everything around it. From down on the canal it would be straight up monolithic because of the elevation. Overall I agree with the plan tho, especially since Charlesfort makes nice buildings

[lrt's friend]

It was mentioned on the CBC this morning that Charlesfort intends to build on the site of the Ottawa public library at Bank & Sunnyside. Charlesfort stated that the site and the parking lot beside it (the auto garage?) are underutilized. As a part the deal Charlesfort would donate the bottom floor of the building to the city for use as a library. This would increase the size of the library in the process.

The CBC said the only other concern is that the hight restriction is 7 stories and that neighborhood and that the NIMBY's would potentially shoot down anything larger.

Between the church across the street, the canal and its raise elevation that site would have a pretty good view on the higher floors.

Gag!

Sorry, I have always found that Public Library (Bank and Echo Drive) attractive and was the proper scale for the location. Who cares about the view from the building. A tall building would look totally out of place. Southminster United Church has beautiful architecture and a building rivalling or exceeding it in height would totally detract from views along the canal. It would be like building an apartment building on the lawn in front of Parliament Hill. Thumbs down from me, but I guess I have bad taste. If you want to build a 7 storey (or whatever) condo, build at the site of the former gas station at Bank and Sunnyside next to the Mayfair Theatre. Only a couple of blocks away, but would make it much less obtrusive in the landscape.

[Mille Sabords]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Gag!

Sorry, I have always found that Public Library (Bank and Echo Drive) attractive and was the proper scale for the location. Who cares about the view from the building. A tall building would look totally out of place. Southminster United Church has beautiful architecture and a building rivalling or exceeding it in height would totally detract from views along the canal. It would be like building an apartment building on the lawn in front of Parliament Hill. Thumbs down from me, but I guess I have bad taste. If you want to build a 7 storey (or whatever) condo, build at the site of the former gas station at Bank and Sunnyside next to the Mayfair Theatre. Only a couple of blocks away, but would make it much less obtrusive in the landscape.

Bank is wide enough at that location for a building that is taller than the single-storey library. If we were determining the optimal height of the building for that location, we would start with benchmarking it to the street width. If Charlesfort has both the library and the garage on which to build, he need not build very high. He can get a good building with 100% lot coverage (or close to).

[lrt's friend]

Bank is wide enough at that location for a building that is taller than the single-storey library. If we were determining the optimal height of the building for that location, we would start with benchmarking it to the street width. If Charlesfort has both the library and the garage on which to build, he need not build very high. He can get a good building with 100% lot coverage (or close to).

Yeah, we could have more than 1 storey there, but the library's stone front almost matches the church across the street. What are we going to replace it with?

There is a special character to the landscape along the south and east side of the canal between Ottawa U. and Carleton U. All the buildings are lower scale. The couple of somewhat taller buildings are heritage buildings. A modern 7+ storey building at one of the higher points of land would be unattractive and totally out of character.

Show me a drawing of the proposed building that demonstrates that it doesn't detract from the area, and I will change my mind.

[Ottawade]

Ya thinking about it more this morning esp having gone by the site anything even 4-5 stories would be crazy overwhelming. And they already said 7 stories is the max there (still too high) and they want to be over that, but nobody knows how much. I think esp from down on the canal things would look insanely high. If I have time this afternoon I'll go take pictures of the site from the various elevations and we can have some photoshop fun.

If any Glebe-ite wants to go to the meeting Charlesfort is having with the community it is tonight...

[Aylmer]

The day that the Glebe builds anything over 3 storeys will be the day the NIMBYs of Ottawa will have officialy been annialated.

[lrt's friend]

Remember guys, the Rideau Canal is now a World Heritage site. We need to keep the views along it attractive. We don't want to create another DND headquarters. The people who designed and approved that building should have been put in front of a firing squad.

[c_speed3108]

Just found this on CBC.ca.....doesn't sound like a 7 story building they are proposing...it sounds like a 13 story building...



Ottawa developer eyes library site for condo tower
Last Updated: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 | 10:27 AM ET
CBC News

A developer is looking to build a condo on a prime piece of Ottawa real estate, and isn't discouraged that the site is occupied by a popular public library branch and not officially for sale.

Charlesfort Developments will make its pitch to redevelop the site of the Sunnyside library branch at a board meeting of the Ottawa South Community Association on Tuesday night.

The company said it wants to build an upscale 13-storey condominium building on the site overlooking the Rideau River between the Glebe and Old Ottawa South neighbourhoods on a bustling strip of Bank Street lined with stores and restaurants.

The building would include a new, bigger library on the ground floor.

Doug Casey, the company's owner, said he thinks the site, which includes a street-level parking lot, is "totally under-utilized."

In an e-mail, he declined a taped interview, saying he wanted to discuss matters with the community association's board and "reflect on their comments and try to incorporate their thoughts in our proposal, before we discuss this matter with the public."

Coun. Clive Doucet, who represents Capital Ward, where the site is located, said the plan is impressive, but Casey could have trouble selling the idea of a 13-storey building in a neighbourhood where the design plan calls for a maximum of six storeys.

"I will support what the community agrees to, and I've told him from Day 1, the big problem is going to be the height," Doucet said, adding he thinks people will want to think about the idea and study it before responding.

Coun. Jan Harder, chair of the city's library board, said she is willing to listen to the proposal, but there is nothing wrong with the Sunnyside library branch, and there are no plans for renovations and repairs.