Lister Block | ? | 6 fl | Renovation

[coalminecanary]

There are multitudes of empty lots, parking lots and actual eyesores with little historical relevance or beauty in the core. We do not have a shortage of land or building opportunities here. If everyone "kept their noses out of it", all we would have gotten would be a new eyesore that we all have to pay for.

If they want to build new they can do it on their own dollar on a different piece of land.

This is all ridiculous. Why would you want to pay for LIUNA to demolish a heritage building and build a new one using TAXPAYER DOLLARS??? it makes no sense. Can you please explain it to me?

Using tax money to bring back a historical building makes sense to me. Using tax money to tear one down and replace it makes no sense at all!!

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

It happens over and over because this City wants to constantly live in the past rather than look to the future. If the city and all the special interest groups would have kept their noses out of it, I think we would have at least seen something happening there, demolition or not.

When I drove into Mississauga today and saw all the new towers going up by the City Centre I was reminded of that fact. Say what you will about Mississauga, it is moving forward and we are falling further behind.

If you thought the big Toronto developers were going to stay away before, just you wait...they won't be able to give Lister away for free.

yea, you're right. Other developers will be scared to come here and deal with a city hall that agreed to the most expensive lease rate in Hamilton's history AND went to the province to obtain another $7 million for LIUNA's bank account. City hall sure slammed the door on this one.

Stinson can't stop talking about how he would love to restore Lister and Connaught and knows that they would sell themselves due to the beauty and history in both buildings. Mississuaga has no choice but to build ugly towers on farmland because they have no downtown. Look at all the work going into trying to create downtowns in Markham and Vaughan. You can't replicate the real deal.
The only special interest groups screwing Hamilton are the developers and all their closed-door meetings as they convince council to steal more money from you and I. I guess you enjoy being raped and pillaged by city hall. Believe it or not, some of us don't. Stick with the facts and not your Speculator tabloid/trash headlines.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by coalminecanary

There are multitudes of empty lots, parking lots and actual eyesores with little historical relevance or beauty in the core. We do not have a shortage of land or building opportunities here. If everyone "kept their noses out of it", all we would have gotten would be a new eyesore that we all have to pay for.

If they want to build new they can do it on their own dollar on a different piece of land.

This is all ridiculous. Why would you want to pay for LIUNA to demolish a heritage building and build a new one using TAXPAYER DOLLARS??? it makes no sense. Can you please explain it to me?

Using tax money to bring back a historical building makes sense to me. Using tax money to tear one down and replace it makes no sense at all!!

it's modern-day socialism for the rich. Apparently guys like you and I are old-fashioned for thinking the way we do and not wanting the government to have to do everything for us.
Oh, and by the way, most of these modern socialists call themselves capitalists, but don't be fooled.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

yea, you're right. Other developers will be scared to come here and deal with a city hall that agreed to the most expensive lease rate in Hamilton's history AND went to the province to obtain another $7 million for LIUNA's bank account. City hall sure slammed the door on this one.

Stinson can't stop talking about how he would love to restore Lister and Connaught and knows that they would sell themselves due to the beauty and history in both buildings. Mississuaga has no choice but to build ugly towers on farmland because they have no downtown. Look at all the work going into trying to create downtowns in Markham and Vaughan. You can't replicate the real deal.
The only special interest groups screwing Hamilton are the developers and all their closed-door meetings as they convince council to steal more money from you and I. I guess you enjoy being raped and pillaged by city hall. Believe it or not, some of us don't. Stick with the facts and not your Speculator tabloid/trash headlines.

Forget Stinson, RTH you sound like your under the spell of a Svengali. There are plenty of derelict sites Downtown for him to buy and develop. If he really is so anxious he can get started immidiately and build anything he wants. I think we should be LIUNA do whatever they want with no incentives other than the tax relief and loans offered to others as part of the city program.

I have been raped by City Hall for the past 12 years. The fact that I pay over $7K in property taxes a year for a home and $26K for a small 12 unit apartment building has a lot to do with the fact that the city is chasing business away and rotting from the inside out. It's no accident that we have one of the highest poverty rates in the Province. I have said it before, if you think you can do better then let's see you business plan.

THOSE ARE THE FACTS MY FRIEND!

[DC83]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

I think we should be LIUNA do whatever they want with no incentives other than the tax relief and loans offered to others as part of the city program.

^^ But why would WE pay LIUNA to build a new peice of crap building???
They should not, and will not, get a single cent from the Province or City. They played their game and lost.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

Forget Stinson, RTH you sound like your under the spell of a Svengali. There are plenty of derelict sites Downtown for him to buy and develop. If he really is so anxious he can get started immidiately and build anything he wants. I think we should be LIUNA do whatever they want with no incentives other than the tax relief and loans offered to others as part of the city program.

I have been raped by City Hall for the past 12 years. The fact that I pay over $7K in property taxes a year for a home and $26K for a small 12 unit apartment building has a lot to do with the fact that the city is chasing business away and rotting from the inside out. It's no accident that we have one of the highest poverty rates in the Province. I have said it before, if you think you can do better then let's see you business plan.

THOSE ARE THE FACTS MY FRIEND!

Let LIUNA do whatever they want?? so, should we let you turn your apt building into a crack/whore house?? NO. Rules are in place for a reason.
They can do whatever they want within the framework of owning a designated historic building. Same as if you or I bought it.
Stinson doesn't just want any empty lot. He's travelled. He understands cities and he understands the value in restored historic buildings! Just because you don't, doesn't mean the rest of the world doesn't. People don't visit Paris to see how smooth their roads are. People don't go to Boston to hang out in Braintree. History sells and Hamilton is blessed to have the area around the Gore still in tact. The business plan is very simple. Go check out Boston's North End. Stinson realizes that. If you want your taxes to go down you should be encouraging the restoration of places like Lister and Connaught. They will gain attention for our city. Crap like the fed building on Bay St won't gain any attention. It's another boring Mississuga piece of garbage dropped into our downtown. We need to heavily invest in the restoration of our entire Gore area. We don't mind spending billions for Walmart to set up shop all over town. How about spending some of my money to actually turn the tide around and start generating wealth here so folks like you are encouraged to buy more property, not pay high taxes on the ones you own. Knocking down buildings to leave parking lots or build cheap, crappy buildings will not turn around our image. Therefore, it won't bring in a tide of other developers.
IF we do Lister and Connaught properly, as Stinson has proposed, I bet you'd see considerable interest from outside of Hamilton. We've been doing this demolition routine for decades now and where has it gotten us?
Nowhere!

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by DC83

^^ But why would WE pay LIUNA to build a new peice of crap building???
They should not, and will not, get a single cent from the Province or City. They played their game and lost.

YOU have already been paying for a percentage of every new project in the core since 2001 in the form of interest free loans and tax incentives.

[DC83]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

YOU have already been paying for a percentage of every new project in the core since 2001 in the form of interest free loans and tax incentives.

Oh ya, I'm all for that. 100%!

I'm NOT for giving ANYmore money to LIUNA after this game they played.
The Tax Breaks & Incentives for downtown developments are supposed to be for projects that are underway, no? So when they (LIUNA) scammed the million-or-so dollars from the City to rid The Connaught of Asbestos, it was under the agreement that the money be given as the project was a "go" at that point, right?

I do not want my tax $$ going to an "organization" that has already taken too much money from me (and you, and every other Hamiltonian) when all they really plan on doing is screwing us around. They're jokes. Zeros. I have no use for them in my city (I am NOT a union mbr), and I have no use for their games & tactics. They would have kept raising the leasing price even IF the city agreed to the $37/sq.ft.

Peace Out, LIUNA... unions are full of thugs! <--- the ppl who run then, not the forced-members.

[SteelTown]

I think first what you are going to see happen is that LIUNA will apply for a demolition permit again, council will probably support it like last time and then wait and see if LIUNA demos first before the province can stop them. If so LIUNA will then finally sell the building to someone else.

[realcity]

The Lister will end up being a parking lot for the city employees currently housed across the street in the Eaton Centre.

[SteelTown]

^ no believe it or not City Hall actually bought a parking lot across from York for councillors. It's too much for councillors to actually walk a block away from City Hall's massive parking lot to City Centre.

[realcity]

$37 per sq ft is extortion. They wanted their share of the Province's $7 mil. They played their hand, they lost... It's been three years already. Forget it LIUNA, sell it.


IF it comes down, DO NOT REPLICATE IT. It's not that good... certainly not for a replicate. If you want to replicate a building, how about the Gugenhiem or something worthy of a replication. A replicate Lister is a brown box from Home Depot....

[realcity]

Actually converting the Lister to accommodate modern office requirements would ruin Lister on the inside. I hate the idea of it being used for offices. they'll end up gutting the floors to be giant cube farms, destroying all the character and charm on the inside. To me, the interior has more charm then the exterior. Apartment units would preserve the hallways and interior walls moreso then office space.

[DC83]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

^ no believe it or not City Hall actually bought a parking lot across from York for councillors. It's too much for councillors to actually walk a block away from City Hall's massive parking lot to City Centre.

Walk??? This is Hamilton!!
I'm surprise we don't have "Pedestrians Yield to Traffic" signs like Mississauga City Centre (THANKS FLAR)!! hahaha

Ya, Lister is doomed for demo
I don't get how such a decrepit core like Detroit can retain such an AMAZING stock of Heritage Bldgs despite the lack of ANYthing down there, yet Hamilton w/ a much more bustling core demo's everything!? Mind-Boggling.

[Jon Dalton]

I think this is more of a matter of economic realities than it is LIUNA being crooks or the city being tightwads. When a city is economically depressed, things go to shit. We need companies that bring in cash and create demand for premium employment space, so someone might go about making a case for restoring buildings such as the Lister. At the moment, it looks like our only options are institutions with deep pockets. The city obviously isn't in that position.

[Jon Dalton]

Wait... Let's demolish the Hamilton City Centre instead.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by Jon Dalton

Wait... Let's demolish the Hamilton City Centre instead.

now you're talking!!! we always demo the wrong friggin buildings!

[raisethehammer]

ok....for what it's worth. Just heard from a city hall source.

LIUNA is still interested in restoration. Going to chat with the province about how to make it happen.
Also, Stinson is not involved here at this point.

[Jon Dalton]

Something needs to be clarified here. Is the building now designated under the heritage act and protected, or did the province step in to block one specific demolition permit?

This brings to mind the TH&B station restoration project as a good example of where the province and the city cooperated to save a building of great significance and put it to good use. They had to search all over the continent to find limestone that matched the original colour. Maybe that's a bad example, but with that project there was a need that combined with the emotional appeal to win public support and the neccessary funds to make it happen, and it was a great success.

With regards to the futility of replication, I agree. Wouldn't it be better to buy up the property of the old Zellers store (across from Lister) and let them build something on that, while giving the Lister another chance? Even if it goes down, in that case there is one empty lot rather than two.

[matt602]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

ok....for what it's worth. Just heard from a city hall source.

LIUNA is still interested in restoration. Going to chat with the province about how to make it happen.
Also, Stinson is not involved here at this point.

I gotta say that shocks the hell out of me. I'm still wondering if thats sincerity or lip service to try to redeem their "good" name.