The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[michael_d40]

Housing: Let the good times roll
Real estate People are buying, selling, flipping and building homes at a record pace - and no one knows how long the boom will last


SAINT JOHN - As Saint John undergoes the transformation into the energy hub of the Eastern Seaboard, the real estate market in the city and surrounding communities has caught fire, setting several records and leading many observers to wonder how high the prices will soar.

Though many of the Port City's veteran agents and brokers prefer to avoid the term 'booming' when discussing today's market, there is no doubt homeowners in Greater Saint John are reaping greater rewards when selling their houses and paying higher prices when purchasing new homes.

As the average residential sale price soared past the $145,000 mark for the first time this year, Saint John actually found itself ahead of both Moncton and Fredericton. In November, for example, the average price of a home in Saint John was $145,074, while Moncton's average was $136,018 and Fredericton was at $131,223.

Where will it end? Is the sky the limit as far as prices go? With billions of dollars in potential megaprojects on the horizon, what is a realistic expectation of market trends for 2008 and beyond?

The experts are cautious because this is new ground and the city hasn't experienced this kind of boom before.

Mary Ann Ketchum, president of the Saint John Real Estate Board, says three factors are driving the city's healthy real estate market.

"The unemployment rate is very low- about half of what it was about 10 years ago," said Ketchum. "That's very good for the real estate market and there's no indication that it should increase any time soon - in fact it could get even better. Then there's migration "¦ people who are moving into the city and surrounding area based on the jobs that are here. And there's also the low interest rate - there doesn't appear to be anything to suggest the rates will be going up significantly any time soon.

"Those three factors have contributed greatly to where we are right now - in a healthy Saint John market."

Ron Young, co-owner of the Exit Realty franchise in Saint John, says it's difficult to predict the future.

"We can't rely very much on past experience, because this hasn't happened before in Saint John," said Young. "Up until about 2000-2001 we saw about a one or two per cent a year increase in value and the last five years it's been about five per cent. This year, it's looking like eight or nine. That was unexpected because all the projects that are supposed to be happening haven't really started to happen yet. There's a bit of a trickle, but right now it has more to do with people's confidence.

"It's difficult to predict exactly where the market is going to go because we have no experience with this type of market and we don't know for sure about things like a second reactor at Point Lepreau and a second oil refinery. If those things happen, the market could be kind of crazy and the labour shortage will be a bigger concern. There just aren't enough places to rent or buy and that's going to start a situation similar to Fort McMurray."

Ralph Stephen, president of Royal LePage Atlantic, says today's Saint John market reminds him of what he saw in Halifax a few years ago.

"Saint John is moving in a direction similar to where Halifax was four or five years ago," said Stephen, whose company has offices in Saint John, Rothesay, Sussex, Moncton and Halifax. "There's a swell of momentum and positive feeling and consumer confidence in anticipation of some of the bigger projects and a general good feeling that's moving everything forward. None of these projects have even been built. Just on the anticipation, the market has been propelled forward and it's interesting to watch because Halifax went through that a few years ago."

Stephen says part of the increase in the value of homes around the city can be attributed to a sort of market 'correction' that could be at play after years of historically low prices.

"For years, Saint John has been among the top cities in terms of most affordable homes," he said. "Part of (the increase) is probably just a result of people rationalizing the value of their homes compared to other cities - realizing that our housing stock is pretty good and it's a good bargain compared to the rest of the country.

"When you pair that with the possibility of some of these announcements of potential projects, that's enough to stimulate the market and move it forward.

"The value will get locked in regardless of whether these projects go forward or not - there's probably still some steam left in the engine."

Dave O'Brien is on pace to enjoy his best year in more than a quarter century in the real estate business, but the associate broker at Re/Max says people have to be realistic about the value of their homes.

"The market is busy, it's active," said O'Brien. "We're running short of certain types of homes and locations and prices. But some people are overpricing their homes because they're speculating. There's a lot of speculating going on and some people are already behind the eight ball.

"No one knows where the prices will go. We expect that if everything that's supposed to happen, happens we should continue for the next four or five years, maybe longer. But we've never had a market like this, so we really don't know what to expect. It's not normal for us. New Brunswick and Saint John have normally just been a nice small, steady increase."
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[PostModernPrometheus]

Originally Posted by michael_d40

Housing: Let the good times roll
Real estate People are buying, selling, flipping and building homes at a record pace - and no one knows how long the boom will last


SAINT JOHN - As Saint John undergoes the transformation into the energy hub of the Eastern Seaboard, the real estate market in the city and surrounding communities has caught fire, setting several records and leading many observers to wonder how high the prices will soar.

Though many of the Port City's veteran agents and brokers prefer to avoid the term 'booming' when discussing today's market, there is no doubt homeowners in Greater Saint John are reaping greater rewards when selling their houses and paying higher prices when purchasing new homes.

As the average residential sale price soared past the $145,000 mark for the first time this year, Saint John actually found itself ahead of both Moncton and Fredericton. In November, for example, the average price of a home in Saint John was $145,074, while Moncton's average was $136,018 and Fredericton was at $131,223.

Where will it end? Is the sky the limit as far as prices go? With billions of dollars in potential megaprojects on the horizon, what is a realistic expectation of market trends for 2008 and beyond?

The experts are cautious because this is new ground and the city hasn't experienced this kind of boom before.

It's always a two edged sword, though.....while it is nice to see property values going up, as well as record setting construction starts, etc, the downside is that (depending on just how inflated the local housing bubble gets) the cost of owning a new house gets further and further out of financial reach for a larger proportion of the population.....the crunch then leads to inflated rental/lease property prices (because, let's be realistic- if there is profit to be made, prices will be driven up in this kind of market)....net result is that personal debtloads go up, and i'd argue that in the end you get a weaker overall economy.....I hope things don't come to that, and that the current prices stablize somewhat, with yearly increases in the ballpark of what would be expected with normal inflation....time will tell i suppose...

[Ottawa]

I don't know what the actual figure is, but I believe the national average is over $300K right now. I think there is room for the prices to move towards that level for suitable properties in the Saint John urban area over a fairly short period. I believe that is the 4 or 5 year period that RE agents are looking at. As for how that affects lower income people, it does tend to move them to areas further from downtown.

Unfortunately, real estate prices do have to get somewhat closer to the national average in order to get more quality renovations and rebuilding going in the uptown and south end area.

As prices go higher, developers become more interested. Sort of the opposite of how I do my personal shopping, but it does tend to bring in better quality developments.

Anybody who has gotten in already should be looking at some good years of appreciation in their properties.

[PostModernPrometheus]

Interesting story on the CBC website this AM:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2007/12/27/happiness-atlantic.html


many cities on the east coast scored highly in this national study....SJ (1), Ch'town (3) Moncton (4) St John's, NL (6) and Halifax (10)....the author suggests that a sense of community / trust is the important variable...interesting to note that none of the major metropolitan areas made this particular list.

SMILE!

[michael_d40]

Originally Posted by PostModernPrometheus

Interesting story on the CBC website this AM:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2007/12/27/happiness-atlantic.html


many cities on the east coast scored highly in this national study....SJ (1), Ch'town (3) Moncton (4) St John's, NL (6) and Halifax (10)....the author suggests that a sense of community / trust is the important variable...interesting to note that none of the major metropolitan areas made this particular list.

SMILE!

Im not surprised SJ is Number 1. It only confirmed what i knew for years

[Alberta Bound]

This is a little repetitive but can never have enough boosterism
Everything is coming up roses lately. Saint John #1 for cities and NB #1 for provinces.

Canada’s November labour market remains strong, but with some west-east shifts
As of November 2007, the labour market in Canada remains tight. Every national indicator is strong. This includes a 67.8% participation rate (i.e., those in the labour force as a percent of the working-age population aged 15 and older), a 63.8% employment rate (i.e., those employed as a percent of the working-age population), a +2.7% year-over-year gain in employment (the highest in this cycle) and a 5.9% unemployment rate (among the lowest in more than 30 years).

As for the +2.7% year-over-year employment gain, five provinces are experiencing increases faster than the national rate. Furthermore, they are not all in the West, as was the case earlier in this cycle. The five provinces are: New Brunswick (+4.7%); British Columbia (+4.0%); Alberta (+3.0%); and Québec and Manitoba (both +2.9%). With respect to the overall labour environment, Alberta leads all provinces with the highest employment rate (71.2%) and the lowest unemployment rate (3.6%).

As for what is happening in Canada’s major cities, there have been some interesting shifts. Eight of the top ten cities in terms of year-over-year employment growth are now in eastern Canada. The leader is Saint John, New Brunswick, followed by Trois-Rivières, Québec in second place and Ottawa-Gatineau in fourth. In terms of cities with the lowest unemployment rates, however, the West still rules. The first seven cities in the ranking of lowest unemployment rates are in western Canada, with Victoria (only 2.8%) claiming the number one spot.

The good employment numbers, combined with a +4.2% annual increase in average hourly wages, mean a level of income growth that is quite supportive of continuing strong economic activity levels in the country as a whole.

[someone123]

The unemployment rate is only really meaningful when it's high, and it's not in most of Canada. When it's low it can be low for many different reasons, and it is not directly related to employment rates since only those looking for work are considered unemployed (others are not in the labour force). It is not true that a lower unemployment rate is always better, especially when the difference is between 2.8% and 3.0% or something similar.

As for employment growth, that is a much more important statistic but again it's misleading to look at it one year at a time, particularly in smaller industrial cities which see a limited number of major projects. Saint John can see high employment growth one year and then nothing the next. People who look at it one year at a time see either a boom town or stagnation but in reality there's a larger pattern at work.

[Alberta Bound]

Developer wants to build hotel where Anglican church once stood
Accommodations: City council will hear application for rezoning at its Jan. 7 meeting

SAINT JOHN - About a month after a hotelier first expressed an interest in the former St. Paul's (Valley) Church property, the 26-year-old structure came down last week followed quickly by a request to rezone the parcel of land to accommodate a hotel.

The 112-room inn is expected to be built in the spring if the property is successfully rezoned, says city planner Jim Baird, who could not recall the name of the firm interested in building the hotel but said that it also runs the Chateau Moncton. (According to an employee reached at the Moncton hotel, the company is Cyr Holdings.)

"They want to build a similar sort of hotel on St. Paul Street," said Baird. "It is a multi-storey building, about nine stories."

The site, at 2 St. Paul St., is attractive to the hotelier because of its high visibility and proximity to Highway 1 and to the uptown, he said.

Bernard Cyr of Cyr Holdings could not be reached for comment.

The cornerstone for the Anglican St. Paul's (Valley) Church, designed by architect Matthew Stead, was laid on Sept. 2, 1869. At the time, it was surrounded by foundries and factories in the heart of industrial Saint John.

The church evolved as the first rail line to Shediac was built from nearby Celebration Street in 1853 and the city's first subdivision developed on Mount Pleasant Avenue, followed by Rockwood Park. Collectively, they brought people to the area.

On 0ct. 21, 1880 the first choral service with surpliced choir was held. The church was also the location of one of the first Scout troops in the city. Prominent Saint John citizens who attended St. Paul's included Sir Leonard Tilley, Chief Justices Sir Frederick Barker and Sir Douglas Hazen and Senator W. H. Thorne, who came all the way from Darlings Island to go to St. Paul's in the 1920s, says long-time parishioner George Teed.

In 1981 workers attempted to remove paint from the building using blow torches. During this procedure St. Paul's ignited and burned to the ground. A new St. Paul's (Valley) Church was built on the same site.

St. Paul's held its last service on Christmas Eve 2003. Many items from the church were donated to some 25 churches and eight organizations, including the New Brunswick Museum and the Provincial Archives. The baptismal font is now used at the new Our Lady of Perpetual Help Roman Catholic Church in Rothesay.

A public presentation of the proposed rezoning will take place at common council's regular meeting on Jan. 7.

The hotel is one of five new hotels in Greater Saint John. The Amsterdam Inn has already opened at the corners of Concorde and Millennium drives in Quispamsis and three other hotels - Best Western, the Hampton Inn & Suites, and Microtel Inn are in the works. The Hampton Inn, located at East Point Shopping, opened for its first full business day less than two weeks ago.

Three additional rezoning hearings are also scheduled for the Jan. 21 agenda of common council:

* The rezoning of about 6.72 hectares of land at 475 City Line/Fort Dufferin Rd. to high-rise multiple residential to permit the development of condominiums by a Toronto-based developer. The project would see three high-rise buildings, up to 12 stories high, built at the coastal end of City Line and next to the Partridge Island breakwater.

* The rezoning of about 5,640 square metres of land at 243 Prince William and 230 Water streets to permit a mixed commercial and residential development by the Rocca Group.

* The rezoning of about 2.3 hectares of land at 917 Fairville Blvd. to accommodate a shopping centre, which could include a new Canadian Tire and Sobeys.

[Helladog]

Originally Posted by michael_d40

Im not surprised SJ is Number 1. It only confirmed what i knew for years

Want happiness? Live east, researchers find
Atlantic Canadian cities score highly on national quality of life survey
Last Updated: Thursday, December 27, 2007 | 10:33 AM AT
CBC News
Most of Canada's happiest cities are on the East Coast — but geography is not necessarily the key factor, researchers have found.


Cities that top the list:
1. Saint John

2. Quebec City

3. Charlottetown

4, 5. (tied) Moncton, N.B., Kitchener, Ont.

6. St. John's

7. Saskatoon

8. Regina

9. Winnipeg

10. Halifax

(Source: Canadian Institute of Advanced Research survey)

According to the Canadian Institute for Advanced Research, Canadians are most likely to be satisfied with the quality of life in places like Saint John, Moncton, N.B., and Charlottetown, all of which placed in the top five of a survey of 18 Canadian cities.

In St. John's, which ranked in sixth place, researchers found the same sense of trust in neighbours and engagement in local activities and concerns.

"There's a really great sense of community here. You go to any coffee shop and see people you know," said Alexis Templeton, a St. John's potter who runs a business in the city's bustling downtown.

April Galway, a lifelong resident of St. John's, said she can withstand brutal winters by focusing on "the warmth and the friendliness of people, and it is very important to know your neighbour."

In fact, knowing your neighbours — and trusting those around you — is a key reason why a city like Saint John tops the list, said John Helliwell, a University of British Columbia economist who led the research project.

He said his ongoing work, which has not yet been published, suggests a correlation between lower levels of life satisfaction in some of the country's most affluent cities — Vancouver, Toronto and Calgary among them — and the lower levels of trust among neighbours in those cities.

Helliwell said the three cities also have a steady flow of newcomers who have yet to make connections.

"They're more inclined to feel harried. They're more inclined to feel pressured," Helliwell told CBC News. "They have a little less time to build these positive relationships."

As well, the data show that happiness does not necessarily entail trust. Residents of Quebec City, for instance, placed second overall for satisfaction with life, but trailed most other cities for trusting neighbours.

All the same, Helliwell said the findings suggest that cities with a static population and deep roots are happier places.

"It's really the extent to which people feel connected to each other, committed to each other and open," he said.

Helliwell acknowledged that gauging what influences life satisfaction is complex. However, he said more economists and city planners are starting to pay attention to this unique field of research.

[PostModernPrometheus]

Originally Posted by Ottawa

I don't know what the actual figure is, but I believe the national average is over $300K right now. I think there is room for the prices to move towards that level for suitable properties in the Saint John urban area over a fairly short period. I believe that is the 4 or 5 year period that RE agents are looking at. As for how that affects lower income people, it does tend to move them to areas further from downtown.

Unfortunately, real estate prices do have to get somewhat closer to the national average in order to get more quality renovations and rebuilding going in the uptown and south end area.

As prices go higher, developers become more interested. Sort of the opposite of how I do my personal shopping, but it does tend to bring in better quality developments.

Anybody who has gotten in already should be looking at some good years of appreciation in their properties.

True...the mean cost for a new home nationally is in the 300k range (though i'd be curious to know what the mean ATLANTIC canadian price is...)..and i agree with you wholeheartedly that a certain degree of real estate increases do attract more higher quality development, etc, etc...however, there is a point where the profit driven inflated housing prices in a city our size (with our relatively high level of poverty) begin to cause more harm than good...both directly (eg: a new young couple looking at buying a new home may choose to live in a more rural area or another nearby city in the face of realtively high housing/taxes....on a larger scale this may erode any plans to increase population in the city core) and indirectly (increased density of extreme poverty)....
it's exciting that we are entering this kind of uncharted water as a community in terms of wealth and development, but there are always hidden costs to be paid

[PostModernPrometheus]

Originally Posted by Alberta Bound

Developer wants to build hotel where Anglican church once stood
Accommodations: City council will hear application for rezoning at its Jan. 7 meeting

SAINT JOHN - About a month after a hotelier first expressed an interest in the former St. Paul's (Valley) Church property, the 26-year-old structure came down last week followed quickly by a request to rezone the parcel of land to accommodate a hotel.

The 112-room inn is expected to be built in the spring if the property is successfully rezoned, says city planner Jim Baird, who could not recall the name of the firm interested in building the hotel but said that it also runs the Chateau Moncton. (According to an employee reached at the Moncton hotel, the company is Cyr Holdings.)

"They want to build a similar sort of hotel on St. Paul Street," said Baird. "It is a multi-storey building, about nine stories."

Three additional rezoning hearings are also scheduled for the Jan. 21 agenda of common council:

* The rezoning of about 6.72 hectares of land at 475 City Line/Fort Dufferin Rd. to high-rise multiple residential to permit the development of condominiums by a Toronto-based developer. The project would see three high-rise buildings, up to 12 stories high, built at the coastal end of City Line and next to the Partridge Island breakwater.

* The rezoning of about 5,640 square metres of land at 243 Prince William and 230 Water streets to permit a mixed commercial and residential development by the Rocca Group.

* The rezoning of about 2.3 hectares of land at 917 Fairville Blvd. to accommodate a shopping centre, which could include a new Canadian Tire and Sobeys.

Thanks for the info...I was just driving by the old St. Pauls' church site last evening....and saw a big pile of dirt and no church .... i had not heard anything about the proposed development on this site...it sounds like a fair sized hotel, and it's nice to see one being built close to the downtown core...

The West side high rise proposal & Rocca's water street development are large in scope, and both would provide sorely needed urban residential units....hopefully these will proceed rapidly...

[Helladog]

Waterfront sale inching forward

John Mazerolle
Telegraph-Journal
Published Saturday December 29th, 2007
Appeared on page B4

SAINT JOHN - The city manager says the land deal to purchase the Coast Guard site should finally close next year.

"We have anticipated the purchase of the Coast Guard [site] to occur in 2008," said Terry Totten, who set aside $3.4 million for the purchase and site preparations in next year's capital budget. "The Saint John Waterfront Development Partnership is in active negotiations and discussions with the Hardman Group, who are the preferred developer, in an effort to see if we can see some construction in 2009 after some design work."

The city's plan all along has been to buy the site from the federal government, then earn its money back through a lease with Hardman. When the project's details were first announced in December 2005, some officials optimistically suggested that the development could start in the summer of 2006. But the project hasn't gone very far.

The problem has been the price. Totten said late in 2006 that federal appraisers selling the site had not taken into account that the site is little more than a wharf, and therefore difficult to build on. Neither side has ever released its hoped-for price during negotiations, though earlier reports suggested the sale could be for as much as $4 million.

"I think we have settled on a number," says Totten, "and now obviously (Ottawa) has some issues with actually leaving the site."

Though it's commonly been referred to as the 'former Coast Guard site,' the spot still includes buoys and equipment, and maintenance is still carried out there. Totten said he hopes the workers at the site will be staying. "We're interested in keeping jobs in Saint John," he said.

If the $75-million project moves ahead, the site will be redeveloped to include a hotel, condominiums, residential units, commercial and retail space, parking and an educational technology complex, all connected to the inside pedway.

Totten said earlier this month that of the $3.4 million in the capital budget, about $3 million was for the land purchase and the remaining $400,000 was for site preparation. Besides the special foundation needed because of the location, development will also require work on the site's deteriorating seawall.

[random11]

Originally Posted by Helladog

Waterfront sale inching forward

John Mazerolle
Telegraph-Journal
Published Saturday December 29th, 2007
Appeared on page B4

SAINT JOHN - The city manager says the land deal to purchase the Coast Guard site should finally close next year.

"We have anticipated the purchase of the Coast Guard [site] to occur in 2008," said Terry Totten, who set aside $3.4 million for the purchase and site preparations in next year's capital budget. "The Saint John Waterfront Development Partnership is in active negotiations and discussions with the Hardman Group, who are the preferred developer, in an effort to see if we can see some construction in 2009 after some design work."

The city's plan all along has been to buy the site from the federal government, then earn its money back through a lease with Hardman. When the project's details were first announced in December 2005, some officials optimistically suggested that the development could start in the summer of 2006. But the project hasn't gone very far.

The problem has been the price. Totten said late in 2006 that federal appraisers selling the site had not taken into account that the site is little more than a wharf, and therefore difficult to build on. Neither side has ever released its hoped-for price during negotiations, though earlier reports suggested the sale could be for as much as $4 million.

"I think we have settled on a number," says Totten, "and now obviously (Ottawa) has some issues with actually leaving the site."

Though it's commonly been referred to as the 'former Coast Guard site,' the spot still includes buoys and equipment, and maintenance is still carried out there. Totten said he hopes the workers at the site will be staying. "We're interested in keeping jobs in Saint John," he said.

If the $75-million project moves ahead, the site will be redeveloped to include a hotel, condominiums, residential units, commercial and retail space, parking and an educational technology complex, all connected to the inside pedway.

Totten said earlier this month that of the $3.4 million in the capital budget, about $3 million was for the land purchase and the remaining $400,000 was for site preparation. Besides the special foundation needed because of the location, development will also require work on the site's deteriorating seawall.

Well, finally some updated information on this proposed development. It's been awhile since the plans were made public: http://www.hardmangroup.ca/development/dev_coastguard.html and I don't wish to be cynical however, there has been more than our fair share of 'talk' regarding so many developments in the area over the years that one can begin to wonder if anything will ever happen! This project, alone, will act as a catalyst for Saint John downtown renewal. Of course, the Union Street development (Justice Building, Police headquarters) will help, but let's face it: These things (Union Street buildings) are needed and we knew it was just a matter of time before they became reality. All in all, it's exciting to watch all the news nevertheless!

[random11]

Without question, the Cruise business is a big deal for the Port of Saint John and for the southern New Brunswick area in general. One cannot dispute the numbers:

http://www.cruisesaintjohn.com/media/generalcruiseinformation.asp

Now, where the heck is the start of construction on the new Cruise terminal? 2007 has closed and not so much as a hammer is in sight at Pugsley.

[PostModernPrometheus]

Originally Posted by random11

Well, finally some updated information on this proposed development. It's been awhile since the plans were made public: http://www.hardmangroup.ca/development/dev_coastguard.html and I don't wish to be cynical however, there has been more than our fair share of 'talk' regarding so many developments in the area over the years that one can begin to wonder if anything will ever happen! This project, alone, will act as a catalyst for Saint John downtown renewal. Of course, the Union Street development (Justice Building, Police headquarters) will help, but let's face it: These things (Union Street buildings) are needed and we knew it was just a matter of time before they became reality. All in all, it's exciting to watch all the news nevertheless!

While I firmly believe that the Coast Guard site will be redeveloped (at some point in the not too distant future), I do find the very secretive nature of the negotiations for the land transfer to be a little disturbing...why the lack of transparency?

[Helladog]

It doesn't bother me, but I know some ppl won't like the idea of some of these buildings going. I can't think of one time I used these buildings for anything...


Buildings will come down, mayor insists
Development McFarlane says structures will be levelled, no matter what community says

John Mazerolle
Telegraph-Journal
Published Monday December 31st, 2007
Appeared on page C1

SAINT JOHN - Mayor Norm McFarlane says the buildings the city intends to buy as part of the police-justice complex north of Union Street will be torn down, regardless of what the community says during the public consultation process.

"The buildings are going," the mayor said during a telephone interview Saturday.

"The site is done and council has agreed the buildings are going. ... It's not a heritage area and the buildings are going. The public consultation is to look at how it's going to look with the parkway, the walkway, all of that."

The approximately $93-million project is slated to be built between Wellington Row and the Mercantile Centre, with the Vito's and the Saint John Arts Centre remaining where they are. But buildings such as the Broderick building, the old CFBC building, the Saint John Jewish Historical Museum, and the Shaarei Zedek synagogue would all come down, says McFarlane - something that has not explicitly been stated before.

Deputy Mayor Michelle Hooton and Coun. Stephen Chase had both given the impression that some of the buildings could potentially be saved. For instance, in an interview earlier this month, Chase said: "If we find out through public consultations that the public wants (the Broderick building) integrated and not torn down, can it be moved? Can it be integrated into the development? We've got this building. What do we do with it?"

Reached Sunday, Chase said he was surprised by the mayor's comments. He said council may have agreed to buy the buildings, but that didn't mean they would necessarily be torn down.

He said some of the buildings in the area do have heritage value and, although he's willing to accept "collateral damage" from the development, he didn't want buildings torn down without a second thought.

Hooton is out of town and could not be reached for comment, but she has said that public consultations dealing only with the look of the project are exactly what she wanted to avoid.

The deputy mayor stirred up controversy earlier this year when she said the police-justice steering committee, which includes McFarlane, had been doing too much planning behind closed doors.

City manager Terry Totten, also a member of the police-justice steering committee, unveiled a public consultation process early in December that includes a website, newsletter, open house, stakeholder meetings and workshops.

McFarlane said he expects the consultations to start in January. But he said if people want to see development uptown, they're going to have to accept that such development will take place north of Union Street, because most of the rest of the uptown is a designated heritage area.

"You know what?" he said. "It's all gone through council. Council agreed to it. It's been moved and passed and everything."

He said landowners in the area have been helpful and gracious, and that even those owners there want to see the development built.

The mayor said he still wants to help accommodate whatever people bring up at the public consultations, but that the buildings will not be saved.

"We will do everything we can to satisfy them, but it'll never, ever satisfy everybody on everything, so some times you have to make a decision, same as with the decision on the LNG," McFarlane said, referring to the controversial tax break he brokered with Irving Oil over its liquefied natural gas terminal.

"Did you satisfy everybody? No. But it was the right decision and people have accepted it now, and they realize it was the right decision now. That's democracy. That's why we have democracy."

Reached Saturday, Totten was uncomfortable weighing in on what is essentially a political decision. But he wasn't as strident as the mayor.

"The concept that was presented does leave some latitude with respect to a couple of properties that we will be acquiring," Totten said. "That's what I'm prepared to say."

Peter Buckland, an uptown art gallery owner and one of the people who first complained publicly about the lack of public consultation, said the mayor's comments were "bold," especially since some council members seem to disagree with him.

Buckland said he accepts that occasionally buildings with heritage value must come down, but he needs to be convinced that the trade-off is worth it. "I think we need to talk about this a little bit," he said.

[Seely32]

Originally Posted by Helladog

It doesn't bother me, but I know some ppl won't like the idea of some of these buildings going. I can't think of one time I used these buildings for anything...


Buildings will come down, mayor insists
Development McFarlane says structures will be levelled, no matter what community says

John Mazerolle
Telegraph-Journal
Published Monday December 31st, 2007
Appeared on page C1

SAINT JOHN - Mayor Norm McFarlane says the buildings the city intends to buy as part of the police-justice complex north of Union Street will be torn down, regardless of what the community says during the public consultation process.

"The buildings are going," the mayor said during a telephone interview Saturday.

"The site is done and council has agreed the buildings are going. ... It's not a heritage area and the buildings are going. The public consultation is to look at how it's going to look with the parkway, the walkway, all of that."

The approximately $93-million project is slated to be built between Wellington Row and the Mercantile Centre, with the Vito's and the Saint John Arts Centre remaining where they are. But buildings such as the Broderick building, the old CFBC building, the Saint John Jewish Historical Museum, and the Shaarei Zedek synagogue would all come down, says McFarlane - something that has not explicitly been stated before.

Deputy Mayor Michelle Hooton and Coun. Stephen Chase had both given the impression that some of the buildings could potentially be saved. For instance, in an interview earlier this month, Chase said: "If we find out through public consultations that the public wants (the Broderick building) integrated and not torn down, can it be moved? Can it be integrated into the development? We've got this building. What do we do with it?"

Reached Sunday, Chase said he was surprised by the mayor's comments. He said council may have agreed to buy the buildings, but that didn't mean they would necessarily be torn down.

He said some of the buildings in the area do have heritage value and, although he's willing to accept "collateral damage" from the development, he didn't want buildings torn down without a second thought.

Hooton is out of town and could not be reached for comment, but she has said that public consultations dealing only with the look of the project are exactly what she wanted to avoid.

The deputy mayor stirred up controversy earlier this year when she said the police-justice steering committee, which includes McFarlane, had been doing too much planning behind closed doors.

City manager Terry Totten, also a member of the police-justice steering committee, unveiled a public consultation process early in December that includes a website, newsletter, open house, stakeholder meetings and workshops.

McFarlane said he expects the consultations to start in January. But he said if people want to see development uptown, they're going to have to accept that such development will take place north of Union Street, because most of the rest of the uptown is a designated heritage area.

"You know what?" he said. "It's all gone through council. Council agreed to it. It's been moved and passed and everything."

He said landowners in the area have been helpful and gracious, and that even those owners there want to see the development built.

The mayor said he still wants to help accommodate whatever people bring up at the public consultations, but that the buildings will not be saved.

"We will do everything we can to satisfy them, but it'll never, ever satisfy everybody on everything, so some times you have to make a decision, same as with the decision on the LNG," McFarlane said, referring to the controversial tax break he brokered with Irving Oil over its liquefied natural gas terminal.

"Did you satisfy everybody? No. But it was the right decision and people have accepted it now, and they realize it was the right decision now. That's democracy. That's why we have democracy."

Reached Saturday, Totten was uncomfortable weighing in on what is essentially a political decision. But he wasn't as strident as the mayor.

"The concept that was presented does leave some latitude with respect to a couple of properties that we will be acquiring," Totten said. "That's what I'm prepared to say."

Peter Buckland, an uptown art gallery owner and one of the people who first complained publicly about the lack of public consultation, said the mayor's comments were "bold," especially since some council members seem to disagree with him.

Buckland said he accepts that occasionally buildings with heritage value must come down, but he needs to be convinced that the trade-off is worth it. "I think we need to talk about this a little bit," he said.

Am I mistaken, Isn't democracy about listening to the people who elected you. That statement isnt bold its outlandish and off base. He was chosen to make decisions for the voters not for his own self interest.

Granted I am all for this development but as a mayor if people want to go down that road then you have no choice but to follow. He is supposed to be a representative of thier voice, not someone who will go against it.


Maybe microtel could be in this deal which would be nice to have a new hotel to be included in the development. I cant see them needing all that space and immediately clearing buildings unless there are furthur deals under the table. I hope they dont tear down the synagogue just to build a bigger parking garage.

[michael_d40]

listening to the people who elected you. That statement isnt bold its outlandish and off base. He was chosen to make decisions for the voters not for his own self interest.

Granted I am all for this development but as a mayor if people want to go down that road then you have no choice but to follow. He is supposed to be a representative of thier voice, not someone who will go against it.


Maybe microtel could be in this deal which would be nice to have a new hotel to be included in the development. I cant see them needing all that space and immediately clearing buildings unless there are furthur deals under the table. I hope they dont tear down the synagogue just to build a bigger parking garage.[/QUOTE]



I say give'r. Its time to modernize this dump anyways, those buildings are trash IMO. Time for bigger and better and (taller & newer things)

[PostModernPrometheus]

I agree with Seely32 - The remarks made in that story yesterday were quite brazen; the gist is "public consultation is great, and we value your input....but really, we've already made the decision"...i see in the TJ this AM there is a news story that speaks to the backlash from those comments yesterday.


As for the buildings coming down - yes, most of those tired buildings have had their day; That being said, there are a few in my mind (eg Synagogue & perhaps even the old CFBC building) that deserve a second consideration; as rightly pointed out, it would be tragic to senselessly lose buildings so that nothing but a shiny new parking lot/garage can be built over it....

[SJTOKO]

Originally Posted by PostModernPrometheus

As for the buildings coming down - yes, most of those tired buildings have had their day; That being said, there are a few in my mind (eg Synagogue & perhaps even the old CFBC building) that deserve a second consideration; as rightly pointed out, it would be tragic to senselessly lose buildings so that nothing but a shiny new parking lot/garage can be built over it....

I agree, most of the buildings can go but I personally like the old CFBC building and I don't want to see it go... As for the Synagogue, with all of the money flowing back into Saint John maybe the Jewish population will flourish again, I say keep it...