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  #3041  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2007, 4:18 AM
citywatch citywatch is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Just-In-Cali View Post
There is a knee jerk reaction in many minority communities that any kind of change to ones neighborhood for the better means that it is being "whitened" up for tourists. Im sure it can be true at times...however, it speaks more to the generally negative way said minorities view their own culture...as if they arent supposed to have things new or cleaned up. That is what needs to change first before the renovation of the neighborhood does.
Here's an example of what you're referring to. Or a change in ppl's tude, not the change in something as superficial or meaningless as their ethnicity or race.


A New Wave at Fifth and Broadway

A Pair of Clothing Boutiques Are Dressing Up an Area Known More for Swap Meets

by Evan George

On many blocks of Broadway, $75 could buy three pairs of faux designer jeans, a dusty Dodgers cap, an alarm clock, some used Cumbia cassette tapes and an unstrung guitar. But at the corner of Fifth Street and Broadway, it brings you just one expertly stitched, high-fashion hoodie sweatshirt.

Believe it or not, window shoppers are flocking.

Unlike the swap meet-style retail that for decades has ruled Broadway's kiosks, storefronts and even historic theaters, two designer boutiques at the base of the ShyBarry Lofts have quietly opened and fostered a new clientele. The chic women's dress shop called Aluma at 304 W. Fifth St. and Rocco, a men's streetwear boutique at 308 W. Fifth St., both opened in May 2006. The stores' owners, Jose Fajardo and Raul Espinoza, respectively, are cousins whose parents patronized Broadway's emporiums.

"When we were little, we used to come here all the time. We'd come to get our back-to-school clothes," said Fajardo, who operates Aluma. "We've made our stores a little more modern, different styles, brighter colors."

Fajardo, 25, points out another important difference separating the two well-coifed boutiques from the competition: None of the clothes hang from the exterior of the shop.

Aluma and Rocco boast simple, sleek signage. Inside the loft-sized stores, alternative rock and hip-hop floats from hidden speakers amid rows of pricey "bling" belts and wooly urban sweaters. The most expensive item in Rocco recently was a $75 sweatshirt that zips all the way up across the face, forming a bizarre facemask hood.

"It's really big right now, a lot of designers are doing it," said a Rocco employee. He said the fashions are what you might find in a hip shopping mall or boutiques on Melrose, though not as expensive.

Neighborhood leaders like what they see. "That's the future of Broadway," said Brady Westwater, vice president of the Downtown Los Angeles Neighborhood Council. "These are the new entrepreneurs."

Fashion Police

Many, including Westwater, are engaged in the struggle to transform the discount shopping district into a more modern thoroughfare with diverse retail and restored historic landmarks. There has been little success, so far. Westwater said the idea of encouraging new, mainstream businesses does not mean the goal is to push out Latino-oriented stores that have operated for decades. "People sort of see it as, 'Oh, they only have swap meets.' But the children of the people who shop on Broadway are now opening stores that appeal to the next generation," he said.

Westwater pointed to two other high-end clothing shops within blocks of Rocco and Aluma, as well as one more that is not yet open.

The Fifth Street shops have also pleased building developer Barry Shy, who rents the retail space. So much so that Fajardo and Espinoza are considering expanding to a much larger second location below another Shy project. "Our stores changed this side of the street and they really liked it," said Espinoza. "They said it has even attracted a lot of buyers to their lofts."

Espinoza, 38, began scouting for store locations two years ago after moving to the nearby Metro 417 apartments. He immediately noticed the foot traffic from Pershing Square and approached Shy about renting in the building's ground floor. At the time, Fajardo was a security guard in the ShyBarry building and Espinoza was a financial director for Ford Motor Co.

In January 2006, a clothing outlet that had been operating on the ground floor closed. But Espinoza still had trouble securing the space. "It was really hard to convince them that I wasn't going to open a swap meet or 99-cent store," he said.

They finally opened the stores in May 2006 and have seen business slowly grow. "I have tourists, people who live Downtown who are running around looking for a dress, people on their way to work," said Fajardo, who also operates a dry cleaning business next door.

They said at least two-thirds of their customers come from Downtown Los Angeles and that their business plans reflect that. They expect growth to come slowly, but naturally, as the neighborhood gains residents. "I know that this location is going to be great," said Espinoza. "I'm in it for the long haul."

Aluma is at 304 W. Fifth St., (213) 489-9003; Rocco is at 308 W. Fifth St., (213) 627-1094.




So things have been in a bind either because a part of DT has a swapmeet reputation or cuz there still aren't enough customers to go around. Just 2 more big reasons why I hope the gaps are filled in ASAP with alot more new housing, & hopefully enough buyers & renters to occupy all the new space.


Dead of Night

Downtown eateries, retail outlets short on customers when work crowd heads home

By Drew Combs
Staff Reporter

Sushi restaurant Wokcano used to close at 10 p.m. at its previous downtown site, a building that was torn down. It was popular among USC students and the area's growing residential community. When the chain reopens next month at the corner of Flower and 7th streets, the new restaurant will test a 2 a.m. closing time. "More is going on in downtown now. More night life and more people living down there," said Michael Kwan, who owns the restaurant with his brother, Marcus.

Wokcano will join a growing list of new retail establishments trying to amp up the downtown late-night scene. But with the downward slide in the real estate market and reluctance of retailers to be pioneers in the 24/7 concept, converting the area into Times Square West may be a long, hard struggle.

As the construction boom began, downtown was a ghost town after 6 p.m. when office workers left for their nighttime commute. With thousands of new residents, though, area boosters have been promising a livelier after-dark scene. One example is Mode restaurant, which has joined the iconic Pantry as a 24-hour downtown restaurant.

"There is a lot to be excited about with all the new restaurants and stores," said Rich Alossi, a downtown resident who publishes a blog about living there. "But some have limited hours, which is a frustration. And those that do stay open later can look empty. It is going to take some time before it becomes a 24-hour active zone."

Many retail outlets still view downtown workers as their primary customers. "The biggest reason we are in downtown is that there is so many people commuting into downtown and working in the office buildings," said Hidenari Sato, vice president of operations for Japanese convenience store Famina. It has opened three locations in downtown since last year, the latest one in California Plaza.

The chain's locations in Hollywood, Santa Monica and even Torrance operate from 7 a.m. to 2 a.m., but the downtown locations close at 9 p.m. most days. Sato said the company arrived at its closing times for the downtown stores after conducting a survey. The chain extended hours at its Figueroa Street location to 11 p.m.

Ralph's at first stayed open until midnight, but now closes at 2 a.m. due to shoppers' requests.

Early coffee

Even if Wokcano finds success staying open until 2 in the morning, it will be the exception. Most of the establishments around it will still go dark earlier. A restaurant down the block closes at 3:30 p.m. most days. The Coffee Bean across the street shutters at 6 every night, except Sundays when it closes at 2 p.m.

Starbucks is the dominant coffee chain downtown with 20 locations, most of which close shop as downtown workers head home. "Store openings are based on regional customer needs and are determined on a per-store basis," Starbucks spokesman Montey Dunn said in an e-mail. "The majority of Starbucks store locations downtown close between the hours of 6 p.m. and 8 p.m."

Some retail executives say that the residential community still lacks the critical mass to support longer hours of operation. The population in downtown L.A. has grown over the past two years by 20 percent to 28,878 residents. That tally is expected to grow to more than 40,000 by the end of next year. In contrast, downtown's payroll force totals over 400,000.

"We are in downtown for a combination of reasons, but mainly for the business crowd," said Philip Gay, chief executive at the Daily Grill restaurant chain. He also said his nighttime customers include ticket holders for the Music Center and Staples Center.

To much fanfare, the Daily Grill opened a 6,000-square-food restaurant on the ground floor of the Pegasus apartments in 2005. But those staying above the restaurant can't grab lunch there on the weekend, because it doesn't open until 5 p.m. Most of the other restaurants in the chain open at 11 a.m. on the weekend. "Although you have more people, we haven't felt that the business is there," Gay said. "It is something we are keeping an eye on trying down the road."

Gourment Wines & Spirits is open until 7:30 p.m. on weekdays and 6 on Staurday nights, but is closed on Sunday. Co-owner Erick Tecson said he would consider longer hours, but only if the number of people downtown continues to rise.

The real estate slowdown may be a hurdle to the 24/7 transformation. Several residential developments originally intended as condominiums have been turned into apartment units, such as 1010 Wilshire or the Mozaic complex near Union Station. Some condominium developments have turned to marketing gimmicks. Santee Village, which includes 216 lofts in three buildings, is offering buyers a three-year lease on a Mini Cooper. Other developers are offering trips and plasma televisions, while some are simply cutting prices.

But downtown boosters predicted the softening real estate market would not slow the evolution of the area's retail scene. Alossi, the blogger, pointed out that "demand for rental housing is still very high." And Carol Schatz, chief executive of the Los Angeles Downtown Center Business Improvement District, said: "We have much pent-up demand for all kinds of retail from our new residents. Those people need retail services. We don't expect to see any slacking off."

Last edited by citywatch; Dec 27, 2007 at 5:12 AM.
     
     
  #3042  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2007, 5:48 AM
JDRCRASH JDRCRASH is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ThreeHundred View Post
Vegas is in the middle of a pretty small valley. I'm not saying that Vegas will all of a sudden Manhattanize. I mean take away the Strip and it's — Moreno Valley. But just look at the Vegas thread. They have cool looking projects going on (I wouldn't mind seeing a Panorama tower or a VEER tower in downtown LA). There are a couple pockets of midrises in south LV and towards the Red Rock mountains.

Las Vegas is a good example of when a city grows way too fast in a very short amount of time. I went there last September and had fun (The Venetian is just beautiful). But Vegas has horrible public transportation (Don't take The Deuce. I'm 6'6 and my dumb — sat on the upper deck of a crowded bus. Thought it would never get out). Plus The Strip is WORSE than the 405. Took 2 hours (no joke) to get from the Hilton to the Tropicana (about 2 miles apart). The monorail is extremely expensive (5 dollars for one way) and is the Green Line of Vegas.

I don't want LA to reach that critical point (though we are fast reaching that point if not already there) where downtown has reinvented itself, LA Live and Grand Ave are at 100%, and yet we have no way to get people to downtown. Transportation is the MOST important thing in Los Angeles. Moreso than any city in the US. It's good to see TOD's and people talking about the Subway to the Sea and all that jazz but we need to get things moving. I don't want to see LA turn into Detroit (although Detroit's problem is totally different than LA's).
Unfortunately for Sin City, alot of those proposals are already cancelled.

In fact, Crown Las Vegas has been scaled down to possibly 2 twin 1,064 ft Towers.

Doesn't Las Vegas have that 3 section accordian bus?

Last edited by JDRCRASH; Dec 27, 2007 at 7:02 AM.
     
     
  #3043  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2007, 5:55 AM
JDRCRASH JDRCRASH is offline
 
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Downtown LA: You’d be Amazed!
A City Face Change
By Russell Brown

“So what has been the most surprising about living in downtown LA? Does anyone really live there?” Those were the questions my well-intentioned sister asked at a holiday dinner in Memphis Tennessee. She knew that I was doing a lot of community work, but really had no clue what a neighborhood council or a BID was. She also really did not understand that there was a place for citizen participation in rebuilding neighborhoods, especially in a megopolis as large as Los Angeles with 4 million residents and in a county that is larger than the population of most states- almost 10 million. My answer has surprised even me. “You’d be so amazed at how many different neighborhoods and unique experiences are so close. Folks have created a really strong sense of community that is incredibly diverse.” No one imagines downtown as a patchwork of travel adventures, but I can walk through so many different cultures, landscapes, aspirations and challenges all within a mile of each other. Little Tokyo, Chinatown, Olvera Street, Financial District, Skid Row, Bunker Hill and a very vibrant retail environment on Broadway, the Toy District and Fashion District/ Santee Alley

I am partial to the Historic Core/ Old Bank District. This is the original built LA as a city- Main Street, Spring Street, Broadway. Adaptive reuse has rapidly revitalized century-old abandoned buildings into residences and businesses. Tom Gilmore almost single-handedly shepherded the renaissance of blocks of the city when no one believed it was possible. A revitalized Broadway Entertainment District is taking shape with theaters, restaurants, clubs and residences all connected by a proposed Red Car Street Car.

Over 30 art galleries populate the ground floors and have created an artistic community of friends that have transformed the neighborhood. The monthly ArtWalk brings up to 1500 participants out to WALK downtown- what a unique concept in car driven LA. And all of this was created from a Downtown LA Neighborhood Council Arts committee of a half dozen stakeholders wanting to fill empty spaces in their building, and not taking no as an answer –with help from Jan Perry.

The Frank Gehry-designed Disney Concert Hall will soon be the centerpiece of a new $2.1 BILLION neighborhood- The Grand Avenue Project- with radical architecture and a huge urban park from the Music Center to City Hall. Eli Broad also never took no as an answer, and shepherded this visionary project through a hundred deaths.

Staples Center/ LA Live/ Nokia Theater already has become the busiest sports/ entertainment complex in the world. A $2.5 BILLION complex is rapidly developing with over 20 new high rises nearby and in South Park. All from visionaries who did not take no for an answer when Staples Center was just a dream, and city funding seemed to be the only way to start the dream.

Add in the leadership of Councilman Ed Reyes in creating a vision for the redevelopment of the LA River. The conversation is no longer IF, but HOW FAST the changes will happen. Again, never taking a no.

So when a neighborhood council member laughed that downtown’s ideas are too big, we all shook our heads in agreement, and are so grateful that never taking a NO really is the right answer and can really rebuild whole neighborhoods.

Now if we can just get Trader Joe’s to say yes. Ralph’s Fresh Fare already has.

A Downtown Growth Profile

Downtown development since the opening of Staples: $17.7 BILLION


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Downtown population 1998 18,700
Downtown population (projected) 2009 40,000

Market rate apts/ condos 1998 3,181
Market rate apts/ condos 2007 12,528

Affordable Housing units 1998 8,445
Affordable Housing units 2007 9,719



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Russell Brown is President of DLANC- (Downtown LA NC) and Executive Director of the Historic Downtown LA Improvement District (BID) _
     
     
  #3044  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2007, 7:47 AM
edluva edluva is offline
 
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there are more hotel rooms in some downtowns, than DTLA has market rate housing. wow.
     
     
  #3045  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2007, 9:16 AM
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ChrisLA ChrisLA is offline
 
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Originally Posted by JDRCRASH View Post
Downtown LA: You’d be Amazed!

Now if we can just get Trader Joe’s to say yes. Ralph’s Fresh Fare already has.
Forget Trader Joes, and Whole Foods, we need a Central Market. I visited a couple of this chain in the Dallas/Ft Worth area. Oh man I wish they would come to Los Angeles, and downtown in particular (Long Beach too). I like both TJ & Whole Foods, but this market put both to shame.

I say downtown petition for this chain to come to Los Angeles. Texas may be a lot of things, but one thing they have us beat in is our supermarkets. They know how to do it right, we need to learn how they managed this.

Last edited by ChrisLA; Dec 28, 2007 at 6:04 AM.
     
     
  #3046  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2007, 10:49 AM
edluva edluva is offline
 
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^it's a fledgling chain, but a nice one.
     
     
  #3047  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2007, 8:28 PM
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k3d k3d is offline
 
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717 Ninth (Edit: I thought it was Ninth but the first page says 717 Flower. The first page is wrong.)

Last edited by k3d; Dec 27, 2007 at 9:11 PM.
     
     
  #3048  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2007, 8:31 PM
ladowntowner ladowntowner is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ChrisLA View Post
Forget Trader Joes, and Whole Foods, we need a Central Market. I visited couple of this chain in the Dallas/Ft Worth area. Oh man I wish they would come to Los Angeles, and downtown in particular (Long Beach too). I like both TJ & Whole Foods, but this market put both the shame.

I say downtown petition for this chain to come to Los Angeles. Texas may be a lot of things, but one thing they have us beat in is our supermarkets. They know how to do it right, we need to learn how they managed this.
At this point, I imagine most of us would be happy with a Trader Joe's. Whole Foods would be OK too. SoCal is TJ's birthplace. If we can't convince/persuade them into locating downtown, what chance do we have of getting an even "better" chain to come in, especially one that doesn't have any history at all in the region?

A Trader Joe's in downtown has long been considered a psychological barometer to the community. Once (if) that happens a lot of people's perceptions will change. Better if it's a business that locals (Southern Californians) are familiar with. One they wouldn't have to step into to realize what it is, seeing the sign from the freeway would bring instant recognition. Whole Foods could certainly meet this criteria as well, but I have a strong personal bias towards TJ's. Whole Foods is just way too pricey in comparison.
     
     
  #3049  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2007, 9:31 PM
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Steve2726 Steve2726 is offline
 
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Wow, great photo of 717 k3d! Thanks for sharing. Do you have a view of the L.A. Live hotel pit by any chance? The webcam has been down for 2 months, sheesh.
     
     
  #3050  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2007, 9:48 PM
citywatch citywatch is offline
 
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Originally Posted by k3d View Post
717 Ninth (Edit: I thought it was Ninth but the first page says 717 Flower. The first page is wrong.)
Thanks for pics like that. Keeping track of ongoing devlpt is even more important right now cuz 2008 is starting to look iffier than before. Even if no new proj----other than Grand Ave (start of work on that is MANDATORY!)----breaks ground in DT over the next 13 months, we can at least get something out of watching devlpts like 717 moving closer to completion.




DECEMBER 24, 2007
Housing Development Halted in O.C.

ByJULIE NAKASHIMA
CREJ Staff Writer

As the housing market continues to flatline, one of Orange County's highest-profile projects is temporarily stepping on the brakes. Envisioned as a rich, sophisticated urban downtown in the heart of Orange County, A-Town lies in Anaheim's Platinum Triangle, an industrial area that the city rezoned with a residentially oriented mixed-use overlay in 2004. It consists of two parts: A-Town Metro, planned for 2,681 units in as many as 11 high-rise towers, and the A-Town Stadium project of 878 units, including two high-rises.

Lennar, the developer, planned to begin construction of A-Town Metro in January. The company reportedly has postponed construction rather than engage in deep discounts, as so many other homebuilders have tried to varying degrees of success.

Voit Commercial Brokerage's Team TZ, composed of senior vice presidents Louis Tomaselli and Mitch Zehner, sold some 60 acres of land to Lennar in some of Orange County's largest industrial sales transactions. Tomaselli, who continues to handle some ancillary issues related to A-Town, said it is his understanding that Lennar is in for the "long stretch" and plans to see the project developed. He noted the company has worked diligently over the past year to complete A-Town's streets and other infrastructure.

"I think it's a smart move not to start developing product because nobody can tell at this point what the correct product is for the market there," Tomaselli said. "To take it to the next level and go vertical seems a little irresponsible."
     
     
  #3051  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2007, 11:01 PM
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Wright Concept Wright Concept is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ladowntowner View Post
At this point, I imagine most of us would be happy with a Trader Joe's. Whole Foods would be OK too. SoCal is TJ's birthplace. If we can't convince/persuade them into locating downtown, what chance do we have of getting an even "better" chain to come in, especially one that doesn't have any history at all in the region?

A Trader Joe's in downtown has long been considered a psychological barometer to the community. Once (if) that happens a lot of people's perceptions will change. Better if it's a business that locals (Southern Californians) are familiar with. One they wouldn't have to step into to realize what it is, seeing the sign from the freeway would bring instant recognition. Whole Foods could certainly meet this criteria as well, but I have a strong personal bias towards TJ's. Whole Foods is just way too pricey in comparison.
Look folks, the very fact that the new Ralphs Downtown has no competition and is the first or second biggest money maker for Ralphs in the State of California is the barometer that will lure Trader Joe's and others to invest their grocery and food stuff business in Downtwon LA.

Once a grocery store is in the neighborhood, next come the resturants and then the botique/furniture stores so that while folks are waiting 30-40 minutes on their dinner reservation they can stroll and do window shopping at the nearby stores, have dinner and then the next couple of days go out an buy what they had their eyes on.
     
     
  #3052  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2007, 11:35 PM
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colemonkee colemonkee is offline
 
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^ Ha! That's exactly what I'm doing this weekend. Buying furniture from a downtown furniture store. Though I didn't make the decision based on window shopping while waiting for a reservation.

As for Urban Market, it is a very, very cool store. But their downtown Dallas restaurant hasn't done very well (downtown Dallas is another submarket similar to downtown LA with a new and growing downtown residential population, but a bit behind LA). So expect them to be a bit — shy when expanding into "burgeoning" urban populations. I think we'll get a TJ's or Whole Foods first. But hey, I'd be happy with any one (or all) of the three.

k3d, great shot - and a beautiful day! You're gonna have a hell of a view as 717 and Concerto rise. As for the name, Meruelo lists the project as "717 9th Street Tower", so until they change that, I'll keep it as is on the front page.
     
     
  #3053  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2007, 12:02 AM
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k3d k3d is offline
 
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Originally Posted by colemonkee View Post
As for the name, Meruelo lists the project as "717 9th Street Tower", so until they change that, I'll keep it as is on the front page.
Maybe I'm reading it wrong but the front page does say Flower, not 9th. I had originally posted 717 Flower referring to the front page but to me that would be around 7th / Flower, which made me edit my original post to 717 Ninth.

717 Flower
35 Stories - 395 ft. - residential


(Photo credit: http://www.meruelomaddux.com/)

Last edited by k3d; Dec 28, 2007 at 12:20 AM.
     
     
  #3054  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2007, 12:59 AM
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k3d k3d is offline
 
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Originally Posted by colemonkee View Post
^ Ha! That's exactly what I'm doing this weekend. Buying furniture from a downtown furniture store.
Thanks colemonkee. Yes I enjoyed watching Market Lofts, Luma, Evo and Hanover. Also the AT&T redo was interesting. There is scaffolding up under the old Windows restaraunt now. Maybe we will see that enclosed before long. My wife thinks they are blocking the view but I explained how the new buildings ARE the view.

BTW, where did you go for furniture downtown?
     
     
  #3055  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2007, 1:32 AM
LAofAnaheim LAofAnaheim is offline
 
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Looks like Falafal Express is opening on Spring street between 4th & 5th street in the OBD.

Restaurant 7 Bar has people working inside. Much faster than a restaurant like Bottle Rock that's had its banner on the retail space for 8 months with no activity.
     
     
  #3056  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2007, 1:50 AM
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k3d k3d is offline
 
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Oh I forgot to mention I went to Mode the other night. It was about 1/3 full at around 8pm on Sunday. The service was great. I thought the food was delicious though small portions. I had the seared tuna and my wife had the ravioli. The french pressed coffee was really nice with lava cake and mint ice cream. The blue lighting made the place feel a little cold of course. The back door opening and closing the whole time didn't help. Overall it was good. It's nice to know it's open 24/7
     
     
  #3057  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2007, 1:51 AM
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LosAngelesBeauty LosAngelesBeauty is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ChrisLA View Post
Forget Trader Joes, and Whole Foods, we need a Central Market. I visited couple of this chain in the Dallas/Ft Worth area. Oh man I wish they would come to Los Angeles, and downtown in particular (Long Beach too). I like both TJ & Whole Foods, but this market put both the shame.

I say downtown petition for this chain to come to Los Angeles. Texas may be a lot of things, but one thing they have us beat in is our supermarkets. They know how to do it right, we need to learn how they managed this.

Why is Central Market considered that great? Just curious...
     
     
  #3058  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2007, 2:07 AM
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WonderlandPark WonderlandPark is offline
 
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Central Market is great, I would welcome one downtown. But it is not THAT much more special the Whole Foods. And TJ's is really different, and I like that. TJ's should not really be seen in the same niche as a Central Market.
     
     
  #3059  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2007, 2:30 AM
JDRCRASH JDRCRASH is offline
 
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_____a little off-topic_______
I read an article today in the "Times" that had a local business leader expressing concern that the Gold Line Ext. could have a negative rather than positive impact economically long-term for East L.A.........what a dummy.
_________________________

Regarding Phase II of L.A. Live; I know the ESPN 710 AM Radio will broadcast from there; but will the News that is scheduled to be broadcast there as well be part of the KABC-7?

I guess what i'm trying to say is: will the HQ of "Eyewitness News" move from they're studios in Burbank to the L.A. Live complex?
     
     
  #3060  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2007, 2:54 AM
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Regarding 717 ?, I remember the project being originally announced as 717 Ninth and then rebranded as 717 Flower. There was lots of discussion about this 2 or 3 rundowns ago because of the confusing 717 9th name which I understood to be 717/9th or 717 flower/9th although it was never presented that way.
     
     
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