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Originally Posted by Hot Rod
Tin,
I meant Evergreen Line (I forgot Expo Line starts with an E also). Oops.
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That makes more sense. I think the proposal to run it to Guildford is a good idea.
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As for the express busses, we need to think in the future; not necessarily on today's downtown market [which is actually pretty robust than many on here think]. We need to make a few busses express from suburbs to downtown and major employer/attractions. We need to keep Vancouver the center of the metro area (who cares if it aint geographically, none of this would exist without Vancouver), and downtown Vancouver needs to remain the cultural, financial, and entertainment center of the Lower Mainland - hence enforcing that with express busses.
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You can't "enforce" culture with buses. If Vancouver's going to continue to be the centre, then density planning and putting more people in the centre will do far more than create a commuting culture.
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Oh, you mentioned SkyTrain - well, it AINT express, it makes every stop. I even mentioned what would the possibility be to make a few trains during rush express, from major stops into/out of downtown. This is done in Japan, using a side track in many cases tho. But couldnt we time the trains effectively now such that it could be done until bypass track is installed at smaller stations. ...
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That's the problem. Skytrain isn't meant to be travelled on for long distances. New York also does express trains. Japan, remember is VERY dense in the cities, because they usually have extremely limited areas they can live (it's what happens when you live on an island of volanoes... nothing's flat.)
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And for your comment about my proposed extension to Abbotsford, it aint that far. And Surrey needs rapid transit, as it continues to get larger. This is what they are complaining about, the lack of transit there. My list would satisfy everyone, but notice I didn't have a date on this portion. ...
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It
is quite far. Take a look at
this map.
65km. Far too long for rapid transit. It's also not even inside Vancouver Metro. It would have to be commuter rail. trains leaving every 10-15 minutes to Vancouver doesn't serve abbotsford. Most of the residents AREN'T going to Vancouver. You mentioned Japan. I've been there quite a few times. They have bullet trains leaving every 5 or 10 minutes from Osaka to Tokyo during rush periods. These are huge trains leaving every few minutes to a city that's almost as far as Calgary. It's amazing... but if you look at why... it's because it's fast, convenient and easily serves about 20 - 30 million people. The express makes one stop. Nagoya. We don't have the same advantages.
HOWEVER, look at this map of Osaka:
The Red line is Osaka's first line, the midosuji, line. It's the LONGEST line, by far. It's 30.4km long from TOP to BOTTOM. And the city is in the centre of that line, which radiates outward... meaning that the radial arms are about 20km. that's a FAR cry from Abbotsford, which is 65km+ away!!!
All those light colored lines are railways... heavy rail.. commuter rail... limited stops. most run privately.
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I'd imagine there will be significant growth in the Surry-Langley-Abbotsford region which would justify rapid transit. Dare we build transit before the population gets there and explodes.... We could SHAPE the suburban sprawl around SkyTrain instead of reacting after the fact (which is much more expensive).
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Abbotsford's suburban sprawl is not Vancouver's sprawl. It's not a suburb of Vancouver, really. It's not in the Metro Area and Abbotsford, in many ways, is a centre unto itself, with its own communities radiating out. It's more a centre than Langley, if you ask me. Building skytrain to Abbotsford is not serving Abbotsford well. It would probably even be more beneficial to build a train between Chilliwack and Abbotsford... or have Abby have its own network of LRT lines. I have lived in all these places, trust me... Vancouver is the not the centre of that region. I can envision a line from the airport YXX (with future connections to
Heavy rail commuter lines into Vancouver (through Langley, Cloverdale and Newton on existing tracks) and , then LRT east along South Fraser Way towards SevenOaks, and continuing to the #11 Abby-Mission Hwy to Connnect to the WCE in Mission. That way you give Abbotsfordians more than enough rail to plan density around.
I do think Surrey needs more transit. I think Langley can wait.
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Maybe people won't sit on a SkyTrain all the way from Abbotsford to Downtown but we should have the option available to everyone. Where would it run in Abbotsford, how about their downtown for starters.
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You mentioned WCE extensions, Im sure if the option were available and convenient, people would use it. Would you rather sit in your car from Abbotsford or ride WCE with a much more convenient and frequent service? How about a skytrain to Metrotown from there?
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Two different ideas here. WCE style I support. Two stops in Abby, one stop in Aldergrove. Langley, one in Cloverdale, Newston, North Surrey. But that's not skytrain. As I mentioned... skytrain is more intra-city transport. We're talking about INTER-city here. which is more suited to commuter rail.
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We could do all of this. Sure, we need to add in some technology to SkyTrain (ie, bypass track at smaller/local stops) in order to make Express Trains viable. But trust me, sitting on an Express Train that only makes three stops on the way to downtown (say, Surrey Central, Metrotown and Broadway) is very attractive and would help tie that area into the New Metro Vancouver.
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But it's not viable to extend skytrain. People don't need a one-seat ride from Abby to Vancouver. It just isn't necessary... and its would be over the top. Skytrain is a mass-transit solution, not designed for long distance travel.
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Plus there is an airport over there and having a rapid transit nearby or going there would certainly make it successful.
We're an asian city, well let's start acting like it and build transit (and manage growth) for the masses to use (and not just a toy). That's my thoughts. ...
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Asian cities are far more dense. If we want to be an asian city, we need to encourage density in more places through land-use policy around mass transit (I'm thinking of Vancouver's policy here).
AGain, I go back to Japan. They plan density, commericial, hospitals, EVERYTHING around major stations. When you rent a house, it always says how far from the station it is... the closer you are, the more expensive the place.
Asian cities don't run mass transit to other cities. Look at a map of Osaka. Osaka, Kobe and Kyoto practically run into each other. Kobe's centre is only 35-40km from Osaka. Yet, there is NO subway or mass transit between the two. They have plenty of commuter rail and long-distance trains, and even a bullet train station (at least in Kyoto and Osaka, there is one) but nothing skytrain style. Osaka doesn't even have subway to its own airport. (not entirely true actually... there's a monorail to itami airport... but I'm talking about KAnsai international... which only has an express train to it.)
Another map. Kobe would be to the west. Kyoto to the North-east
If you're talking about Mass-transit extensions....
- extend skytrain to Guildford
- skytrain and to Newton town centre.
- White Rock could come next.
- Extend it from downtown along Hastings.
- Along 41st to Metrotown.
- Along Marine from Coquitlam to Arbutus (colorado style heavy rail DMUs on existing ROW)
- Commuter rail on existing ROW to Cloverdale, then Langley.
- Extend WCE to Abbotsford from Mission (until Southern Line from Langley gets built)
- transit line down Main st.
- Evergreen line North and South routes.
- South route branches to Guildford, North to Maple Ridge.
- LRT in North Van across the Lion's Gate
Doing all this would ensure Vancouver remains the centre.
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Unfortunately I have yet to utilize it. Reason being is that the route is more than an hour long, so it's good to give us long-haul riders something to do.
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