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  #1321  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2007, 3:00 PM
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From the Telegraph Journal
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Deputy Mayor Michelle Hooton and a growing number of other people who have gotten a whiff of these plans don't like what they smell. What started more than a year ago as a proposal to build a $20-million headquarters has ballooned into a huge development that will likely raze more than a dozen buildings and cost up to $100 million.

Critics say the newest version has largely gotten rid of a large public piazza with green space. The pedestrian-friendly section of Union Street could be converted into a four-laner, another huge roadway dividing the city. A big chunk of the development would be devoted to private business, possibly a high-rise hotel and parking garage.

Hooton describes the latest depiction on a drawing she's seen as "characterless-" the architecture won't blend in with the historic area or nearby Saint John Arts Centre.
I think it sounds good and I really don't understand what "The pedestrian-friendly section of Union Street" is. Is this the section without the second hand shops, bingo halls and pubs you wouldn't send your worst enemy into?

Hopefully some sort of rendering is shown today in the press conference.
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  #1322  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2007, 4:43 PM
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It sounds a bit like when when Brunswick Square was developed...and back then it wasn't a "Saint John" style building proposed, there was a major parking garage, and many buildings were razed.

As far as I'm concerned what came out of it is much better than what was before. If they wanted to put this on Germain, I'd understand the whining, but we're talking about an area along Union across from Brunswick Square that has nothing to lose but low property values.
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  #1323  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2007, 5:29 PM
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It sounds a bit like when when Brunswick Square was developed...and back then it wasn't a "Saint John" style building proposed, there was a major parking garage, and many buildings were razed.

As far as I'm concerned what came out of it is much better than what was before. If they wanted to put this on Germain, I'd understand the whining, but we're talking about an area along Union across from Brunswick Square that has nothing to lose but low property values.
Obviously the synagogue is of some historic importance and some of the other buildings are nice, but a redevelopment is in order. Parking lots are not historic.
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  #1324  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2007, 10:19 PM
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I don't care what they do as long as they leave the Synagogue and the Carnegie Building (the Arts Centre) alone.
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  #1325  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2007, 11:21 PM
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I don't care what they do as long as they leave the Synagogue and the Carnegie Building (the Arts Centre) alone.
I was talking to one of the board members of the Arts Centre last year and he indicated that the police department was being accommodating to their needs and goals.

The old YWCA (the Fundy Engineering Building) is also nice, but we must balance preservation with development.
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  #1326  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2007, 11:28 PM
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Yeah that whole line of buildings with the Synagogue, YMHA, old YMCA should be preserved IMO, some of them are in pretty good shape and really fit Saint John's character. I think there's plenty of room to develop the YMCA lot, those parking lots, and on the hill toward Harbour Station and the Mercantile Centre, to make for a really nice new mixed-use development.
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  #1327  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2007, 2:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Alberta Bound View Post
From the Telegraph Journal


I think it sounds good and I really don't understand what "The pedestrian-friendly section of Union Street" is. Is this the section without the second hand shops, bingo halls and pubs you wouldn't send your worst enemy into?

Hopefully some sort of rendering is shown today in the press conference.

Has anyone seen any recent renderings/arichtectural plans for the proposed complex??
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  #1328  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2007, 2:54 AM
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Union Street redevelopment

I saw the slew of stories in the Telegraph today regarding the police/justice complex....

a $100 million dollar development....wow....


i'd agree with keeping the small number of historical buildings intact (eg: arts centre)...but otherwise, i can't understand why there are detractors to a nice large scale development on this highly visible, and currently obscenely underused site......i saw mention of a high rise hotel, etc, etc as part of the development proposal....great! go for it! the bigger and more mixed use the better...this is not a "heritage" area per se........if this argument (i.e., "new development wont fit with the small number of heritage buildings around it) is used for every major project in the uptown.....*sigh*....
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  #1329  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2007, 4:13 AM
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I would be deeply saddened for the city if we lost mixed use 100 million dollar facility for the sake of a couple buildings. Green space we have plenty at rockwood park and all the surround areas of the city. Even though I may disagree with union bcoming four lane im sure they can create a better option in the area. possibly a better connection to the overpass or below to harbour station. And hopefully the more people and better devlopement that area will clean up its act a bit there are some beautiful buildings there.
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  #1330  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2007, 6:58 AM
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I can't remember where Deputy Mayer Rootin' lives? Can somebody advise? Reason I am inquiring is that there is a municipal election coming in the not too far distance and it will be a ward system at that point. Just wondering if she is out early looking for some votes...I suspect this project will be heated. The City should lay their cards on the table and get this thing out in the open. Personally, I am looking forward to it however, I do understand the concerns of the residents in the area. Heck, if I lived there or owned property there, I would want the City to be upfront as well.
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  #1331  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2007, 7:32 AM
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I heard from a rep of Chapters years ago that they didn't open a store in Saint John because their market research indicated that Saint Johners don't read. True or not, it was an upsetting thing to hear.

I'd be happy to get all those stores you mentioned, but Saint John will have a Starbucks over my dead body


Amazing how quickly things change here in Saint John......

Indigo/Chapters is well on its way to being opened soon, and we are on to our 2nd Starbucks with Drive Thru opening soon...
Saint John isnt taking a back seat anymore.
Exciting things are happening here, and things are only going to get better.
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  #1332  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2007, 8:53 AM
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Originally Posted by random11 View Post
I can't remember where Deputy Mayer Rootin' lives? Can somebody advise? Reason I am inquiring is that there is a municipal election coming in the not too far distance and it will be a ward system at that point. Just wondering if she is out early looking for some votes...I suspect this project will be heated. The City should lay their cards on the table and get this thing out in the open. Personally, I am looking forward to it however, I do understand the concerns of the residents in the area. Heck, if I lived there or owned property there, I would want the City to be upfront as well.


As far as I know, she lives on the corner of Carmarthen and Orange....
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  #1333  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2007, 11:16 AM
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As far as I know, she lives on the corner of Carmarthen and Orange....
lol! Really? I lived at the corner of Carmarthen and Orange for a while, how did I not know that Hooton was in close vicinity? Shouldn't my Spidey-Sense have been tingling?
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  #1334  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2007, 4:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Seely32 View Post
I would be deeply saddened for the city if we lost mixed use 100 million dollar facility for the sake of a couple buildings. Green space we have plenty at rockwood park and all the surround areas of the city. Even though I may disagree with union becoming four lane im sure they can create a better option in the area. possibly a better connection to the overpass or below to harbour station. And hopefully the more people and better devlopement that area will clean up its act a bit there are some beautiful buildings there.
There is an existing connection for west bound traffic on the highway via the Somerset Street overpass but it would require altering traffic patterns a bit. Right now, Dorchester between Union and Carleton Streets is one-way northbound. If that was reversed to southbound and the stop signs at Dorchester and Carleton were moved so traffic on Carleton has to stop, an easier connection to Union Street for westbound traffic highway traffic would be made. The way things are now, there is no obvious way for west bound traffic to get to that part of Union unless they take Rockwood park exit to Crown street then to Union, or Somerset Street to Garden to Coburg then to Union.

Maybe they are thinking of getting rid of street parking to make it four lane. I'm not sure it would be wide enough but that could be a possible solution without major reconstruction.
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  #1335  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2007, 4:35 PM
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Preliminary Police headquarters conceptual drawings.......





Mayor defends secrecy
City Hall: Citizens remain unconvinced as Norm McFarlane promises public

Sandra Davis
Telegraph-Journal
Published Saturday November 17th, 2007
Appeared on page B1

SAINT JOHN - Proposed plans for a portion of the development north of Union Street were unveiled Friday with a pledge by Mayor Norm McFarlane that public consultations will start as early as next month.

But the presentation has left people complaining that it didn't go far enough.

A three-dimensional architect's drawing in reporters' press kits shows a development extending from Hazen Avenue all the way to Coburg Street, a four-block stretch. What was presented to the public during the press conference was a rudimentary drawing of the two blocks between Hazen Avenue and Wellington Row which will be home to the new police/justice complex.

"To pull together this press conference on one piece of a much larger development looks like it was deflecting the real issue - more public consultation about a larger development," says Deputy Mayor Michelle Hooton.

An artist's rendition of the new police station was also shown. The three-dimensional version of the larger development was not presented because it wasn't in the proper format, said a spokesperson for the city.

Realtor and concerned citizen Bob McVicar called the press conference "a bit of a sham."

"Most of what we saw this morning, we've seen before. That's not what's causing people concern," he said. "What he didn't talk about were the other four blocks to the east. That was the glaring omission. There was a lot of time wasted on things that aren't issues for people."

Hooton has publicly criticized council's handling of the project for leaving the public out of the discussions.

"The community will not be pacified," she said. "They have a lot of questions and they want meaningful consultation, not lip service. It was a missed opportunity. We had a room full of concerned citizens. They were informed and presented to, but not afforded the opportunity to ask any questions. The mayor took the press corps into his office, closed the door and had a 'Q and A' so the community never got to hear the questions."

Public consultation should have been included from the project's beginning, she says.

"It empowers the community and lets them take ownership and get excited."

Over the past two days, prominent citizens have been complaining that some members of council and city staff have been surreptitiously making plans for the Carleton-Wellington-Union-Hazen Avenue area without public consultation.

McFarlane told the crowd of media and concerned citizens who gathered in the Red Room on Friday that the development the city envisions is a "once in a lifetime opportunity to re-invigorate the uptown core".

He defended the decision to keep a lid on the project saying that it is "very sensitive" because the city is trying to buy up the properties it needs.

"One building has been sold out from underneath us because of all this coming up," the mayor said later in an interview. He would not identify the building.

"The taxpayer is going to end up paying double for this," he said.

Hooton has said that the argument is spin because, the reality is, the community knows who is buying the properties.

McFarlane also will not say how much money has been spent nor how many properties have been bought, although city staff said last summer that they had 90 per cent of the properties needed for the development.

"This will all be public information when we have it. We're dealing with taxpayers' money. I don't want to charge one more cent to the taxpayer than we have to," said McFarlane.

Friday's press conference was called to clear up the confusion, the mayor said.

"When you read the newspaper and read so many misconceptions, it's time to get the right story out there," said McFarlane. "The police commission just received their rendering yesterday. How could we have public input when we didn't even have it?"

In fact, concerned citizens have said repeatedly that they know a new police station is needed.

That's not what they're upset about - what they are disappointed in is the lack of participation in a project that could, over time, see four blocks razed.

Historic buildings could be wiped out and streets stopped up.

"There have been visualizations of what this could look like," says city planner Jim Baird. "We're now beginning to get at the stage where we're actually looking at somewhat specific designs. That's where we want to have the involvement of the community, in the larger vision."

Throughout the press conference, McFarlane continually stressed that everything has been done with the blessing of common council and that all but one were unanimous.

"That would indicate that all of council was there to offer unanimous support," said Hooton in an interview. "Well, there was a significant meeting that I wasn't at when scope was greatly enlarged that council gave unanimous support to."

The mayor also presented the public a timeline of how the project had unfolded so far, with council's stamp of approval. It failed to identify which items were addressed in common council's closed or open sessions.

"I feel it is extremely important for me to explain the background of this process," said McFarlane. "I want to make sure that we are as transparent as we can be at this point to ensure there isn't any misinformation communicated out there to the public."

Within his timeline, McFarlane spoke of having held consultations with various groups, including the Saint John Board of Trade, something that concerned citizen Hazel Braithwaite takes issue with.

"To the best of my knowledge those 'consultations' were separate," says Braithwaite. "There was no opportunity to hear what others were thinking and saying. I was one of three women asked for my opinion, in one of those separate meetings. We each said that we were not concerned if the new police station was uptown. It is, after all, a city station and not just uptown's.

"A true consultation would have all the input on a flipchart, shared and could be used as a roadmap. As a community, how do you know if we are on the right path if we don't have a plan?"

"Public consultation takes place at the very beginning of a process, negotiation in the middle and a fight at the end. I and others are tired of fighting. We want a real place at the table, at the beginning in this and all other major decisions. The place to begin is the Municipal Plan which I do not believe has been updated in over 20 years," she said.

Aside from the police/justice complex, plans for the blocks between Hazen Street and Wellington Row include a pedway connection to Brunswick Square, a public plaza and pedestrian space where art may be displayed, parking garage, maybe even a hotel, office space or residential development, if private investors determine a need.

"What buildings will be removed depends on what the private sector wants to do," says Baird.

The Saint John Arts Centre remains the focus of the development, he says, and the drawings presented on Friday are preliminary and subject to change.

"We wanted to share with you an idea of the scope and the potential of this project," said McFarlane.

"Through this development, the city is opening the area to further development.

"Development that will compliment the historical integrity of the uptown area and bring much needed life to an area that is currently under utilized."

As far as the new police station goes, commission chairman Andrew Britton says he is excited to share an artist's rendition.

"We have something now where we can begin a process to get further input, to get further consultation with respect to the design of the police headquarters facility. They've done an excellent job of balancing the many variables we have before we come to a final design."
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  #1336  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2007, 4:52 PM
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A TALE OF TWO CITIES
Growth: Saint John studies prosperous Fort McMurray so planning mistakes can be avoided as expansion looms


FREDERICTON - Nestled in northern Alberta, Fort McMurray is often touted as a symbol of Canada's booming economy, a small town thoroughly transformed in a short period of time by its explosive growth.

Often the stories of Canadians fleeing their home towns to strike it rich in the oil sands projects overshadow the flip side to a white hot local economy: severe housing shortages and insufficient municipal infrastructure.

Fort McMurray has grown so rapidly it can no longer be considered a town. It became a beacon for workers, and it is now attracting planners and consultants studying ways to avoid the problems that came with rapid prosperity.

Southern New Brunswick is now in a situation where it is bracing for an unprecedented period of growth, revolving around the $1.4-billion Point Lepreau refurbishment project, the Canaport liquefied natural gas terminal, the potential construction of a second nuclear reactor and a second oil refinery.

New Brunswick's growth projects no longer lag behind in the national doldrums. Now estimates place the province in the upper echelons with Alberta.

Toronto-based Hardy Stevenson and Associates is part of the Benefits Blueprint study announced recently that will look at ways the Saint John area can capitalize on the economic benefits of Fort McMurray without repeating the same planning mistakes.

Bob Manning, chairman of Benefits Blueprint, said it is important for all levels of government and the private sector to properly plan for this "once-in-a-generation opportunity."

"Fort McMurray didn't realize the extent of this wave that was going to wash over them," Manning said. "And although they are doing an excellent job in terms of moving forward and trying to get everything addressed, they didn't have the ability to be in the position we are in. We have time to do some forward planning."

To that end, the study compared and contrasted Fort McMurray and Saint John as a way to identify weak spots that must be fixed in order to bypass any future problems. Exacerbating Fort McMurray's quandries were early plans based on economic growth of one per cent, not the eight per cent it has experienced over the last eight years.

Dave Hardy, principal with Hardy Stevenson and Associates, said Saint John faces challenges but if the proper steps are taken soon many problems can be avoided.

"We have capacity in the Saint John Census Metropolitan Area to accommodate growth now," he said. "We are in pretty good shape now from that perspective. That said, we really need to move forward and start to plan for this growth as we are seeing changes already occurring."

The consultant examined more than a dozen different factors that play into economic, social and infrastructure planning in the coming years.

Playing in Saint John's favour is its diversified economy compared to oil-dominated Fort McMurray. The two growth centres have similar labour forces, but the Alberta town was found to have more technologically skilled trades people and a high proportion of its population in the 25 to 39 age group, boosted by its estimated 30,000 temporary residents. Saint John is coping with an aging population.

When it comes to having the municipal staff available to carry out the requisite planning, the consultant said Saint John is in a much better situation because it has a more experienced city staff. Hardy said the spirit of co-operation between all three levels of government will help tremendously when addressing the upcoming challenges, something that wasn't always present in Fort McMurray.

Much has been made of the infrastructure deficit plaguing the boomtown, a problem that Alberta Premier Ed Stelmach has promised to address. In particular, Fort McMurray had shortages in its roads, water and wastewater sewage plants. Hardy said even the infrastructure now being constructed will be at capacity once it is completed.

"In Saint John, because there has been fairly stable population levels, we are at a point where we have fairly reasonable capacity. There is some capacity in the system to grow," he said. "There are a couple areas where we feel there will be a strong need to focus attention on both roads and potable water and ultimately waste-water treatment."

Another similarity facing Saint John in the future is the need for new housing. Fort McMurray faces an acute demand for affordable housing. The Benefits Blueprint group is finishing a separate housing strategy but the historical average of producing 200 units a year is not nearly good enough.

"We believe that we have to probably ramp that to 350 to 400 units on an average over the next few years to make sure we can accommodate the growth," Hardy said.

One advantage for Saint John is the low person-to-household average, which translates into an opportunity for some future leverage ability when it comes to rental stock for temporary workers.

The final Benefits Blueprint study is not expected until the end of January but housing has been identified as one issue that must be addressed within the coming three to six months, Manning said.

Since 1999, Fort McMurray has experienced an annual average population growth of about 8.5 per cent and forecasts suggest the city will reach a population of 100,000 by 2012. Welcoming so many new residents has strained Fort McMurray's social programs, especially policing and medical services.

Strategic planning can also lead to unnecessary developments. Hardy pointed to Lillehammer, Norway, the site of the 1994 Winter Olympic Games, during which the community built a massive hotel for the tourists, which now sits almost totally vacant.

Once this blueprint for managing the economic growth is completed, it will be shared immediately with community and business groups because Manning said a lot of decisions must be made. The local district education council, as one example, will be brought into the discussion very quickly so it can plan for an influx of new students.

Manning said school enrolment projections have long been based on a decline in students but that is about to change, a fact that other groups should be aware of.

"This economic boom will help us turn that curve the other way and go through a growth cycle," he said. "A lot of entities and institutions have been planning for the decrease in population and will have to work extremely hard to reassess their short- and long-term plans based on an increased population."
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  #1337  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2007, 5:02 PM
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Originally Posted by michael_d40 View Post
"What buildings will be removed depends on what the private sector wants to do," says Baird.

"Development that will compliment the historical integrity of the uptown area and bring much needed life to an area that is currently under utilized."
This makes pefect sense. I have no idea why someone would be against redeveloping this area, especially between Coburg and Wellington Row.
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  #1338  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2007, 6:22 PM
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I notice that McVicar guy trying to get his name in the paper too...I wonder if he's going to go for the mayor's seat too?
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  #1339  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2007, 11:51 PM
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I don't think there is any doubt that Bob wants to run for something again, and given the timing, my guess is he wants the Mayor's seat.

This secrecy thing is really stupid though. I mean if the proposal is really that great, why hide it? You could have a fantastic development planned, but if you don't show people what it is, they'll never support you on it.
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  #1340  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2007, 1:58 AM
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I don't think there is any doubt that Bob wants to run for something again, and given the timing, my guess is he wants the Mayor's seat.

This secrecy thing is really stupid though. I mean if the proposal is really that great, why hide it? You could have a fantastic development planned, but if you don't show people what it is, they'll never support you on it.
On the same token you dont want the city to see it becuase we all know that getting development in our uptown that is truely great is like getting a nurse to do heart surgery. If you bring in to the public there will be hoards of people against just because they want to be against it, its too picky of an area. If the owner of the synagogue and the director of the arts center are saying there is a fair deal then lets get it rolling.

Anyone body who wants his chair will back the "old city" and we can stay stagnant and run down in that are for another 30 years and this time we won't have a Y to give it some life.

On the complete opposite side it could really suck.

But I hope its unders wraps because he know's that people will make him take another 2 years to get it done instead of starting in april or may.
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