The future of Ottawa's Transit

[waterloowarrior]

some maps from the MMM report

[Cre47]

The good thing though, thank god, it's that it will be unlikely that the freeze will be implemented and that most of the proposed cuts will be rejected, although you to consider the risk. Maybe the more likelyhood scenario is probably reductions to routes with poor ridership like they did last year. But still, no cuts should be made period. I hope that rural councillors (like Glen Brooks or Doug Thompson - I thinking especially these two) will not push for transit cuts. I think Brooks was the councillor who proposed the motion to go ahead with most of the proposed cuts in 2004 - but I may be wrong. While Thompson, well he just officially won his dear battle for the re-opening of Albion Road and we know that Greely are anti-transit.

Here's a CFRA article (even though CFRA is the worst in Ottawa) about the city having no short term plans for LRT not even the tunnel.

http://www.cfra.com/headlines/index.asp?cat=1&nid=53457

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Cre47

Here's a CFRA article (even though CFRA is the worst in Ottawa) about the city having no short term plans for LRT not even the tunnel.

http://www.cfra.com/headlines/index.asp?cat=1&nid=53457

I thought that was known from last Summer? After the MTF plan, because it was the only part that was finished, they could start working on these sections.

After reading all the documentation, the city's LRT-only plan is the best (maybe because it looks so much like the OT plan )

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Sheesh, this Urbandale plan is beginning to look just like a slimmed down version of my proposal!

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

Sheesh, this Urbandale plan is beginning to look just like a slimmed down version of my proposal!

Well just look at the review of the Urbandale proposal, and then you'll see why it wasn't effective .

Haha, they even stopped the LRT at St-Laurent, for transfers.

[the capital urbanite]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

I just hate its looks with more than one car, that's all. I like the combino, but it's a streetcar too, and slower... but the looks suits more of subway system.

looks like the S70 (but uglier imo) ...the S70 is modular and can be customized...for example the one used in Houston is articulated and longer than the one that was proposed for Ottawa. If a longer/quieter/roomier/prettier vehicle is required I'm sure Siemens can tweak their design....for a price of course.

[lrt's friend]

Good Luck in getting the $400M from the feds and Province for a Bayview-Bowesville plan that will likely cut ridership potential by at least half. We need Larry O'Brien to show us how good a salesman he really is by getting us funding for the full Barrhaven to Hurdman (or Via) route. Just remember Dalton Maguinty's disappointment in our timid plans.

The S70 is exactly what we need. When we build LRT on Montreal Road or Carling Avenue, there is the potential to share track through downtown. The S70 is by far the most versatile train, being able to operate on streets and exclusive ROWs and still having a good speed for suburban service. It seems to me the bi-modes were also low floor so they could also share the same track.

Low floor trains are much better designed for disabled people and platforms are less obtrusive in the streetscape. Calgary and Edmonton don't use low floor trains simply because they didn't exist when they started their LRT systems.

Now, who was saying that it was going to take so much longer by LRT than by Transitway from Barrhaven? The Urbandale report says it right there. 40 minutes from Barrhaven, about the same as by Transitway. The myth has finally been broken.

[lrt's friend]

In answer to the Bowesville question. Bowesville was expropriated in 1951 to expand the airport. The village was near the present day airport terminal. Today's references will be the Bowesville Road that runs south from the airport and will be (more or less) the eastern boundary of the planned Riverside South community.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Now, who was saying that it was going to take so much longer by LRT than by Transitway from Barrhaven? The Urbandale report says it right there. 40 minutes from Barrhaven, about the same as by Transitway. The myth has finally been broken.

That was from the Via station in Barrhaven, and that still stands. The Barrhaven town centre is still about the same by Transitway... so why are we putting a train to there again? We had this discussion again, just read the old thread, LRT faster than BRT in ROW, LRT in Woodroffe corridor is faster than BRT in Woodroffe corridor, equals faster service to Barrhaven than putting double tracks in a field.

Nothing has changed, it's the same damn numbers! And I'm excited to see that the focus will come back to the core, as per the LRT plan of the city. We need to encourage growth in the city before a suburb.

And if you want to quote the Urbandale plan, do it correctly:

c) Trip time from Woodroffe (40 mins.) and River Road (38 mins.) to
the CBD was excessive for the purpose of attracting car users.

[lrt's friend]

so why are we putting a train to there again?

So that 2 rapid transit lines connect allowing easier transfers and reflecting that the proportion of employment is increasingly moving away from downtown. There is only so much space downtown. Suburb to Suburb transit is going to become more and more important. We should not only be measuring travel times to and from downtown, if you are serious about getting more people out of their cars.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

So that 2 rapid transit lines connect allowing easier transfers and reflecting that the proportion of employment is increasingly moving away from downtown. There is only so much space downtown. Suburb to Suburb transit is going to become more and more important. We should not only be measuring travel times to and from downtown, if you are serious about getting more people out of their cars.

Like I mentionned again and again before, suburbs to suburbs should be through a SUBURBAN train, which is faster than LRT. Sigh... Is that difficult to understand the different means of transit? If I work in Kanata, I don't want to pass through 30 stations, I want something fast.

[the capital urbanite]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Good Luck in getting the $400M from the feds and Province for a Bayview-Bowesville plan that will likely cut ridership potential by at least half. We need Larry O'Brien to show us how good a salesman he really is by getting us funding for the full Barrhaven to Hurdman (or Via) route. Just remember Dalton Maguinty's disappointment in our timid plans.

I agree that the Bayview-Bowesville line will be a hard sell, however the "business case" for building this part of the line before dealing with the central business district is solid (Mr. O'Brien can't ask for money for the CBD tunnel since it is just under study at the moment).

Construction of the Bayview-Bowesville line would essentially force the building of the central business district LRT tunnel (or some sort of BRT/LRT hybrid) so ridership will be there.

It's a bit of a circular argument...if we don't build the Bowesville-Bayview line there wouldn't be much point in a CBD LRT tunnel...and if we don't build a CBD LRT tunnel there wouldn't be much point in the Bowesville-Bayview LRT line. (maybe a bus tunnel would be viable but then we've been through that twice in the past..)

again, it comes down to the simple question ....does the city want LRT in this corridor or not?

If yes, then the Bowesville-Bayview LRT (or perhaps River-Bayview) is the only answer. If the answer is no then the city should shelve LRT indefinitely and extend the existing Transitway South to River road.

Councillors should vote on the proposed route assuming 2/3 funding from upper levels of government. At least then when we go ask for money the mayor can say that council supports building option "x".

[the capital urbanite]

Send review of Urbandale LRT plan to council, staff tells committee
Warns that cost of downtown tunnel likely to be higher than projected

William Lin
Ottawa Citizen

Wednesday, November 14, 2007

City staff has recommended that a review of a developer's light-rail proposal that includes a downtown tunnel be sent to city council, but added that the tunnel's costs could be higher than the company's estimate.

In mid-August, Urbandale Corp., an Ottawa development company, piqued the interest of the joint transportation and transit committee, which includes Mayor Larry O'Brien, with its light-rail plan.

At the time, the joint committee directed city staff to report back by October.

The staff report - which was dated Nov. 6, but not available until last night - said Urbandale's proposal seeks to reduce the scope of the original north-south light-rail project. The the savings could then be used to partially offset the cost of constructing other light-rail sections, including the downtown tunnel and an extension to the VIA station.

However, the report said Urbandale's cost-saving estimates were difficult to confirm because the company provided few details as to how the numbers were calculated.

It appears that the proposal is missing some important elements, such as cost escalation and the twinning of the track from the maintenance facility to River Road, the report said. Also, other project costs, such as those dealing with property and utilities, were not considered.

For example, the proposal assumes that there will be no major utility relocation costs if a downtown transit tunnel is built.

"It is premature to assume this, as there is likely to be utility costs," such as for the downtown portal tunnel accesses, the downtown station accesses and changes in LeBreton Flats and at the maintenance facility, among others."

The concept of a downtown tunnel, which the report said will be the "most fundamental component of the network," goes hand-in-hand with council's recent decision to start an environmental assessment study.

The report also said a more detailed analysis is needed of the projects, including a revised ridership study and run-time simulations.

"The federal and provincial agencies will not agree to fund this newly scoped project until due diligence takes place through the completion of the detailed analysis," the report said.
© Ottawa Citizen 2007

[the capital urbanite]

...and a slightly different take on the matter from the Sun...

LRT proposal back on track
CITY BUDGET: Staff report also recommends spending $8 million on bus-only lanes along Baseline Rd.
By DEREK PUDDICOMBE

CITY HALL BUREAU -- Light rail transit is back on the city agenda.

Next week, a joint meeting of the city's transit and transportation committees will discuss the latest LRT proposal by a local developer that would take commuters to River Rd. from the current O-Train station at Bayview.

It's a reduced route compared to the original proposal that would have seen a 30-km track to downtown from Barrhaven. That project was cancelled earlier this year.

But in a report to be tabled at next week's joint meeting, staff suggest the Urbandale proposal does have some merit.

The report also recommends city council spend about $450 million on several transit-related projects identified earlier this year, including about $8 million on bus-only lanes along Baseline Rd.

Attractive to city staff is that the LRT project wouldn't interfere with any work if council proceeded with a plan to build a tunnel under the city's downtown core.

The now-cancelled plan also called for building a second tunnel under Dow's Lake, but Urbandale's proposal says a second hole isn't necessary.

The company says if twin tunnels are built under Slater and Albert streets it would relieve much of the transit congestion and alleviate the need for a second tunnel under the lake. But staff suggest there could be a problem running a single track.

"The single-track Dow's Lake tunnel could become a bottleneck in a network of twin tracks everywhere else," the report says. "A single tunnel could also have negative impacts in the case of maintenance requirements (longer term) and possible emergency conditions."

To accommodate the transit trains operating on a single track under the lake, Urbandale suggests trains would run on five-minute headways.

Urbandale's cost estimate to build the Bayview to River Rd. line, including trains and twin tunnels under the downtown, is almost $1.1 billion. That's almost the same cost of the previous Barrhaven to downtown project that didn't include a tunnel.

City staff question how Urbandale arrived at the cost.

"The Urbandale proposal assumes that there will be no major utility relocation costs if a downtown transit tunnel were to be built. It is premature to assume this," the report states.

With a downtown tunnel expected to become the foundation for the entire transit network, the report includes a comprehensive work statement involved in building twin tunnels.

The study area runs from Bayview Station through the downtown core, between Wellington St. and Laurier Ave. West, to King Edward Ave., and will also take in Lowertown West and the Byward Market. The area will also run south to the Hurdman station and the Via Rail station as possible future LRT extensions.

Staff expect to award a contract to study the tunnel route next March and take two years to complete.

[lrt's friend]

Ottawa is not New York. We cannot have suburb to suburb express trains that don't stop at various points along the way. Maybe we can keep the number of stops below 30, but I can't see the demand to support a non-stop or almost non-stop train between Orleans and Kanata any time soon.

We should not adopt the Toronto model where they have been using a tremendous variety of trains; streetcars, RT trains in Scarborough, subways, Go Trains and soon LRT, all of which is incompatible with each other. There is a lot of history on why Toronto's system has developed the way it has. Part of it was politics. Part of it is simply the size of the city. Part of it was availability of rail corridors. Part of it was track sharing with freight trains. Part of it was the longstanding history of the rail network, some of it 100-150 years old.

Ottawa is totally different. Most of our rail network was dismantled, so we have the opportunity to create a new rail network almost from scratch. This in a way gives us an advantage in that we can build a more flexible rail network with a single rail standard and technology. The S70 or something similar is the best choice. We do not need trains that can operate over 100kph if they are going stop every 2 kms even in the suburbs. Outside the urban/suburban area, that is a different story but our priority is within the urban/suburban area.

I am not a fan of heavy Go Trains. They can only operate on existing rail lines. They cannot run downtown since we no longer have any heavy rail lines to downtown. They don't encourage intensification along the rail lines. They cannot run frequently. If they don't run downtown, who will use them?

[lrt's friend]

If yes, then the Bowesville-Bayview LRT (or perhaps River-Bayview) is the only answer. If the answer is no then the city should shelve LRT indefinitely and extend the existing Transitway South to River road.

Councillors should vote on the proposed route assuming 2/3 funding from upper levels of government. At least then when we go ask for money the mayor can say that council supports building option "x".

I have said it before. We need to get started. Bayview to Riverside South or Barrhaven or whereever in preparation for extending downtown once a tunnel study is completed. If we wait for the tunnel study, we won't BEGIN construction until 2011 at the earliest. Even if we don't wait, with all the new studies needed, we won't start construction of even a line ending at Bayview until at least 2009.

If we extend the Transitway to Riverside South, we have eliminated the most obvious rail transit route in the city. There will not be LRT for at least another generation and we will still face a unsustainable Albert/Slater transit corridor. We will then be on the hook for building a downtown bus tunnel at even higher cost than a rail tunnel.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I am not a fan of heavy Go Trains. They can only operate on existing rail lines. They cannot run downtown since we no longer have any heavy rail lines to downtown. They don't encourage intensification along the rail lines. They cannot run frequently. If they don't run downtown, who will use them?

Are you joking? You just mentionned that people need suburbs to suburbs sevice, now, if they don't run downtown, they won't use it?

The GO Train in Toronto is to offer faster service than the subway, and it works, it has been overcrowded for years. Our existing tracks are so underutilised that it's a joke.

Each type of vehicle has it's purpose, if you want to all use the same train just for the sake of it fine, but try to show more rational thoughts. There won't be any densification for existing lines because their heavy rail, it doesn'T mean we can't offer transfers that provides faster service, sheesh...

I'm happy to see that's what the city did in their new LRT plan.

[lrt's friend]

Go Trains provide outer suburb to downtown service only. There are no suburb to suburb Go Trains in Toronto. Anyways, we don't have downtown track anymore for this type of train. It simply won't work in Ottawa. Toronto is 5x the size of Ottawa, with 5x the traffic congestion. This makes Go Trains attractive in Toronto. In Ottawa, Go Trains running half hourly and requiring a transfer to reach downtown cannot compete with the Transitway with buses running every few minutes to and from our outer suburbs (Kanata, Orleans and Barrhaven).

We have a smaller population than Toronto therefore we need smaller trains. For suburb to suburb (cross-town) service where lower density means lower demand, also supports the concept of smaller trains not larger trains. Why put in trains that can move 1,000 people at a time when the demand in a city the size of Ottawa will not support it? That's why most Go Trains only run in peak periods in Toronto. The demand doesn't warrant the cost of running these big trains during off-peak hours. As a result, buses are used in off-peak hours that delivers poor service because it has to compete with regular traffic the whole way. We can deliver better overall service by using smaller trains and we will encourage more than just commuters to use it by running it more frequently and 7 days a week.

We cannot even justify Go Trains to Casselman (population 5,000), Smiths Falls (population 9,000) or Arnprior (population 7,000). The Toronto equivalent is Mississauga (population 750,000), Oshawa/Whitby/Pickering (population 300,000 or 400,000), Brampton (population 250,000) and so on. Barrie will only be getting Go Service in January with a population of 150,000 or 200,000. There are simply no comparisons between Toronto and Ottawa and therefore our rail needs are completely different.

I am being perfectly consistent.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Go Trains provide outer suburb to downtown service only. There are no suburb to suburb Go Trains in Toronto. Anyways, we don't have downtown track anymore for this type of train. It simply won't work in Ottawa. Toronto is 5x the size of Ottawa, with 5x the traffic congestion. This makes Go Trains attractive in Toronto. In Ottawa, Go Trains running half hourly and requiring a transfer to reach downtown cannot compete with the Transitway with buses running every few minutes to and from our outer suburbs (Kanata, Orleans and Barrhaven).

We have a smaller population than Toronto therefore we need smaller trains. For suburb to suburb (cross-town) service where lower density means lower demand, also supports the concept of smaller trains not larger trains. Why put in trains that can move 1,000 people at a time when the demand in a city the size of Ottawa will not support it? That's why most Go Trains only run in peak periods in Toronto. The demand doesn't warrant the cost of running these big trains during off-peak hours. As a result, buses are used in off-peak hours that delivers poor service because it has to compete with regular traffic the whole way. We can deliver better overall service by using smaller trains and we will encourage more than just commuters to use it by running it more frequently and 7 days a week.

We cannot even justify Go Trains to Casselman (population 5,000), Smiths Falls (population 9,000) or Arnprior (population 7,000). The Toronto equivalent is Mississauga (population 750,000), Oshawa/Whitby/Pickering (population 300,000 or 400,000), Brampton (population 250,000) and so on. Barrie will only be getting Go Service in January with a population of 150,000 or 200,000. There are simply no comparisons between Toronto and Ottawa and therefore our rail needs are completely different.

I am being perfectly consistent.

You don't need 1000 people trains to move people, heck, the proposed O-Train extension don't even have a quarter of that per train. I'm taking about suburbs, not exurbs, suburbs are Orleans, Kanata and Barrhaven. I don't know you were mentionning Smith Falls at all.

There is peek service only because people go to suburb to suburb mostly for work. If I live in Orleans and work in Kanata, why would I take the LRT to there, if for a low infrasctructure cost, you can offer better, and faster service? I can change my habits to get up 10 minutes earlier to catch my train if it means I save 20 minutes on my trip.

You are wrong about Toronto, because you can stop at any stops on the GO-Train line and transfer to go to another destination. People that stop at the Union Station still take the Subway, as it's one of the busiest station, it wouldn't be any different for the O-Train station, it's not like it's 30 minutes from DT, it's not far at all.

Here is the schedule, some service is 15 minutes apart. That's the current O-Train. Plus you complain about train every 30 minutes, some routes are less frequent than that. My bus is every 20-25 minutes.

http://www.gotransit.com/publicroot/schedule/pubsched.aspx?table=01&direction=1&day=1&page=1&new=


A LRT between Kanata and Orleans means at least 30 stations, this will result in a low average speed, and discourage users from transit. I'm not saying it's not needed, I'm saying we need something faster to complement.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

We don't need to run large, exuberant GO Trains to suburbs and exurbs. If exurban communities such as Smith's Falls, Arnprior, Casselman, etc. are willing to be a part and fund their fair share, then I say take it.

If we get the S70's for Central Ottawa and the Suburbs, a fairly decent commuter network could terminate at Hurdman/Via where it then becomes a five minute ride into downtown.

Also, what we could do on top of that would be to acquire more Talent Trains and paint the new fleet in the GO colour scheme. Voila, GO Trains, Commuter Rail and LRT all in one package.