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  #2721  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 6:52 PM
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Originally Posted by urbanboy View Post
What a wonderful thing it is to show inclusivity to our homeless community members by keeping them in the mix, close to transit, surrounding them with good examples, and in turn, reminding those who have homes or are well to do, that homelessness is a problem and we as a community should be more generous.
Thats a nice statement Urban boy, it does seem to be working pretty well despite the recent incident at the Dakota Lofts. As the paper mentioned though, the drug dealers and major buyers aren't the homeless they are just used to make drops, because they need the money.

Yes the homeless have issues and the majority aren't homeless because they are lazy. Being close to as many transit options as possible is a benefit. If it truly is someone who is just temporarily down on their luck, being near a transit center can increase their opportunities for employment by increasing their overall search area.

I do like the idea of an NFL stadium in that neighborhood though, that would make a great gateway into the city. It could go directly west of The Gateway, where the UTA bus parking to the freeway, but overall I like the idea of that area of the city. So it's a done deal, Jazz stay at ES Arena, MLB plays at an expanded Franklin Covey and NFL goes west of The Gateway. Who do I write the check to for the MLB and NFL teams?
     
     
  #2722  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 7:09 PM
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Originally Posted by urbanboy View Post
I don't know, the area seems to be doing fine as far a development goes. I am concerned that the shelter would slow down development in any area one might put it, because of the stigma associated with the homeless in general. but the two seem to be coexisting just fine. I think development will continue. What a wonderful thing it is to show inclusivity to our homeless community members by keeping them in the mix, close to transit, surrounding them with good examples, and in turn, reminding those who have homes or are well to do, that homelessness is a problem and we as a community should be more generous. However, I'm not advocating giving money to pan-handlers. The City is planning different projects to reduce pan-handling on our city streets.
I've noticed that the homeless and drug problems in the area have gotten quite a bit of attention in the Trib. this week. Here are a few snippets:

Quote:
Move the shelter
Public Forum Letter

Article Last Updated: 11/06/2007 06:55:11 PM MST

Many cities have homeless shelters and parks downtown. However, unlike the historic Pioneer Park and our homeless shelter, they are not located in the heart of the downtown growth and downtown revitalization.
Many suggest that the homeless shelter be relocated on the vacant property several blocks farther south, and on a site where it could have its own small park. Also on the new site a vocational center could possibly be built to help many gain pride and become self-sufficient.
If this move of the homeless shelter were to take place, the property between The Gateway and the Rio Grande Depot could be united and could become a major step in the development and revitalization of that part of downtown.

Richard M. Wirick
Salt Lake City
I have to agree that the area between the two train stations has a lot of potential but is blighted because of the shelter. Last time I parked my car on Rio Grande street to eat at the Rio Grande Cafe, I returned to find a homeless man peeing on the side of my car. I've not been back since.

Quote:
Rebecca Walsh: Drugs, not homeless, ruin park
By Rebecca Walsh

Tribune Columnist

...Pioneer Park reached crisis again last week when a raging homeless man fatally stabbed Christian Draayer.
"That could happen anywhere," says Babs De Lay, a nine-year resident of the Dakota Lofts and owner of Urban Homes and Estates.
But suddenly, everyone in the state was aware of a new cycle of violence downtown residents and cops have been watching escalate for the past year.
Using a complex system of whistles and lookouts with binoculars, drug dealers have turned the park into a one-stop shop. The homeless are shields and sometime-couriers. In the past six months, police have added a new bike
patrol and doubled the number of officers stationed in and around the park. They've arrested 500 - a statistic Salt Lake City Police Chief Chris Burbank calls "astronomical." Jailers turn around and release them shortly after they're locked up; the jail is too full. And the cycle turns. Residents who have tried to document the drug activity on camera have been stalked and threatened on their doorsteps. One pusher menaced a young mother at Artspace by masturbating with a knife in his hand....
I don't think that these are the type that I'd like to keep 'in the mix' downtown. Just putting money onto remodeling the park isn't going to be of any benefit to the city if the same crowd continues to hang out in the park.

Quote:
Utah voices
Downtown neighborhood has become a den of crime and filth
Madison Briggs

Article Last Updated: 11/03/2007 12:22:23 PM MDT

In spite of the recent media coverage about Pioneer Park in Salt Lake City, a crime surge in the artists' neighborhood near The Gateway has gone unaddressed. As someone who has tried to make a home and a business here and who now fears even walking down the street, I feel compelled to address this issue.
I've lived in the Artspace City Center at 230 South and 500 West since July 2006. The Road Home Shelter is across the street from my building. The drug culture being pushed out of Pioneer Park has moved to my neighborhood.
This area was meant to become a vibrant artist community, but instead has become a den of drug activity, prostitution and filth.
The police presence in my neighborhood is sporadic at best. Consequently, local drug dealers and their entourage have realized a safe haven. During late evening or early morning hours from about 4 a.m. until 8 a.m., deals are rampant. My calls to the police department receive listless responses, such as, "We're having a shift change right now."
Because there is no effective police presence, the drug culture here has become pervasive, relentless and downright scary. Those of us who are trying to make a life here just have to bear it, for fear of being stabbed or shot if we do anything to control the problem.
In addition, transients in the area are using the parking strips and sidewalks along 500 West as their own
personal garbage bin, leaving food, wrappers, and more detrimentally, drug paraphernalia and shattered glass bottles.
This has become an extreme hazard as I attempt to walk my dog without incident. One of my dogs already died, no doubt from a loose crack rock someone ditched in the grass.
Political correctness is only contributing to the problem. Face it: The Road Home Shelter is a cover for drug activity. Many of those who hang out on the plaza are dealers, customers or molls.
Anyway, I'm not trying to incite anything by posting these, or say that I agree with everything that was written. I'm also not saying that the homeless are to blame for all of the area's problems. All that I'm saying is that there is a real problem in the area and that the transient/criminal/drug crowd will never mix well with the shopper/artist/resident group that the area is currently attracting. The two groups are not "co-existing just fine". For the area to really thrive, the homeless shelter and the crowd that it attracts will have to go. There is so much potential with Gateway, the TRAX extension, Intermodal hub and Rio Grande Station, but unless a new strategy is taken up to remove the crime from the area, all of the money being invested is a waste.
     
     
  #2723  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 7:13 PM
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Out of sight, out of mind, right? Who wants a homeless shelter at all? We should just shoot 'em for sport!

As for comparing the NFL attendance to NBA and other sports, you can't do that. Why? Because the NFL plays its games on Sunday and I doubt we would be able to get 60,000 fans to the stadium on a Sunday afternoon, not with a dominant LDS population.
     
     
  #2724  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 8:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Comrade Reynolds View Post
Out of sight, out of mind, right? Who wants a homeless shelter at all? We should just shoot 'em for sport!

As for comparing the NFL attendance to NBA and other sports, you can't do that. Why? Because the NFL plays its games on Sunday and I doubt we would be able to get 60,000 fans to the stadium on a Sunday afternoon, not with a dominant LDS population.
Its easy enough to say poltically correct things about the homeless, but if you actually want to create a place that attracts people to live, work, shop, dine, and be entertained -- you don't do so by forcing them to fraternize with the homeless while they're doing it.

Despite the fact that even those on the fringes of society need and deserve society's attention, very few people actually want to live or go out on a date across the street from a homeless shelter. If we really want people to spend their leisure time and money in the area in the interest of economic development; the drug problem needs to be cleaned up and the homeless are going to need to be moved elsewhere. Not "lined up and shot", but moved to different location. Its simple economics.

That's my opinion at any rate. Let the criticism begin.......
     
     
  #2725  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 8:15 PM
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Shelter

I for one would like the homeless shelter moved move further from downtown. It would really attract more business to the area and residents. I would also not be as scared to walked around the gateway district (2nd West to Freeway, and N Temple to 4th south, yes the gateway was named after the Gateway District) or downtown for that matter. They always scare me at least alone.

This bring me to another point, its not the homeless that are a problem in any way. But it is in fact the "bums" that are the biggest problem. Many of the people at the shelter are good people trying to get back on their feet. On the other hand, the bums are just taking advantage. They are the ones usually asking for money for "smoke's"
     
     
  #2726  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 8:27 PM
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Originally Posted by arkhitektor View Post
Its easy enough to say poltically correct things about the homeless, but if you actually want to create a place that attracts people to live, work, shop, dine, and be entertained -- you don't do so by forcing them to fraternize with the homeless while they're doing it.

Despite the fact that even those on the fringes of society need and deserve society's attention, very few people actually want to live or go out on a date across the street from a homeless shelter. If we really want people to spend their leisure time and money in the area in the interest of economic development; the drug problem needs to be cleaned up and the homeless are going to need to be moved elsewhere. Not "lined up and shot", but moved to different location. Its simple economics.

That's my opinion at any rate. Let the criticism begin.......
Do you know how many homeless families use the west-side facility? How many of the drug dealers are actually homeless? Do we have numbers, or do they just go there because, like in every major American city, downtown tends to attract that type of people?

Look, there is no perfect location for a homeless shelter. The homeless shelter was built far west of downtown, in a rundown part of town, because that's where people wanted it. They wanted it out of sight, to the point where only the homeless, gangstas and druggies would venture over there. Then development moved west and the homeless population found themselves right in the middle of an up and coming entertainment area. Now people want to relocate them even further, because we can't have rich folk spotting poor people, right?

So where? Move them even further west? Then in 20 years, when there is even more development, we can move them again. Face it, there won't be an ideal location for the homeless shelter. The best way to fight this problem is by upping the police presence in the Pioneer Park region and cleaning the area up. I'd wager most homeless people are actually fairly quiet and are a small nuisance at worst. But the fact Pioneer Park, even with a rising homeless population in the state of Utah, has less crime now than it did 15 years ago, shows me that progress IS being made.

What needs to be done, and it already is being done, is the building of affordable housing. That's a major step in the right direction, getting these homeless people in housing and on their feet. But beyond that, the national government needs to step up and actually do something about the homeless problem in America.

26% of our homeless are veterans. That makes me ill. These men and women can go fight for our country and yet when they return, many are tossed aside like trash. We ignore them, because they're a pox on society. 26% and growing! That number will only rise once Iraq War troops return to the United States. Pathetic.

The homeless problem won't go away if you just ignore it. You're going to need social services to help build a solid foundation to combat this issue. Just moving the shelter might seem like a great idea, but it won't do anything. It's not going to make the homeless problem go away, it's not going to fully rid that area of crime (even without the shelter, crime will still be an issue, as it is in many American cities) and it will just move the problem to another area of the city.

Move the shelter is all I hear, but where? Where is a good place for a homeless shelter? So far from the city's eye that people forget that there is actually a homeless problem? I disagree with that. I park by the Rio Grande sometimes and walk to the Gateway and I've only had ONE problem and it was someone talking trash to me. That's it. And I'm a white boy that looks completely out of place walking around that neighborhood.
     
     
  #2727  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 8:48 PM
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Sandy want to be the new downtown

Well I heard that Sandy has the motto that they are "the new downtown" Well Lets give Sandy the experience of being Downtown and move the shelter there right by the new stadium!
Just kidding
Ho
I like the affrodable housing, but we also need investment in mental health facilites and maybe not just one shelter where we have a whole lot of homeless hanging out why not but mini shelters through out the valley maybe 30 at the most in each facility I know it will never happen but that way it would kind of lessen the impact the homeless do have to just one section
     
     
  #2728  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 8:49 PM
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If they do move the Shelter I think that it would be best near 8th and 8th. Put it on the east side of I-15.

This will put it close to "Welfare Square" and also it is close to the permanent housing that they are putting into the remodeled hotel/motel.

This isn't out of sight out of mind. This is putting the shelter into an area where there is more support for the people that are actively trying to get back onto their feet.

The city and private donations could be used to increase workshops, housing and training job opportunities in that area. Which would help to revitalize that area.

The homelessness problem is not about ignoring the problem, it is about actively working to solve the problem. Leaving the shelter where it is would just cause more people to ignore the problem. Putting people into "Projects" would just ignore the problem.

The city, with the help of private donations and the LDS Church are creating the permanent home for the chronic homeless. The rent is only going to be a percentage of their income. If they have no income but can show they are looking for work, they can stay rent free. If they have a job, they only pay a percentage of what they are making, regardless of what they are making.

This program will ensure that those who want to work will have a permanent address. Once they are on their feet, they can stay or they can look for a better place to live with the assistance of this program.

These people are not scum and need to be moved around continuously, these people need other people to assist them in getting their lives turned back around.

By consolidating services, this will free up people and money to assist people better. This is saying that there will be a better return on investment. But for this to work, we must first invest into it.

I volunteer at "Welfare Square" regularly to assist people in getting on their feet by treating them with dignity but to also remind myself that without the help of peoples donations and volunteering their time, I might not be where I am today.

Btw, I was in the Army, became disabled and came back to Utah as this is where I am from and my family resides. I and my wife were homeless for a few months. Without the help of the homeless shelter and "Welfare Square", I know that I would not be able to afford anything least of all have a career.

Btw, I came back to Utah in 2004 and only needed a few months of help. But those few months will forever be a part of my life. This experience did show me that when you are down, you need the help of people willing to help you.

If the shelter stays where it is, this will not stop chronic homelessness, it needs to be next to services and options from other organizations that are wanting to help the homeless also.
     
     
  #2729  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 8:50 PM
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Originally Posted by scrapernerd View Post
Well I heard that Sandy has the motto that they are "the new downtown" Well Lets give Sandy the experience of being Downtown and move the shelter there right by the new stadium!
Just kidding
Ho
I like the affrodable housing, but we also need investment in mental health facilites and maybe not just one shelter where we have a whole lot of homeless hanging out why not but mini shelters through out the valley maybe 30 at the most in each facility I know it will never happen but that way it would kind of lessen the impact the homeless do have to just one section
I agree we need more mental health facilities. Many homeless people are mentally ill and that handicap is hard to overcome. But the shelter also offers family and others temporary housing, especially in the winter.

There are far more issues at hand than just moving the shelter. Moving it doesn't do anything if we don't address the social aspect of the homeless problem.
     
     
  #2730  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 8:58 PM
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Moving the shelter to 8th and 8th might work, but it won't happen. That's right in the middle of a residential neighborhood and if you think people are making a stink about it now, wait until NIMBY's hear about a homeless shelter going up in their backyard. Yikes.
     
     
  #2731  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 9:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Comrade Reynolds View Post
I agree we need more mental health facilities. Many homeless people are mentally ill and that handicap is hard to overcome. But the shelter also offers family and others temporary housing, especially in the winter.

There are far more issues at hand than just moving the shelter. Moving it doesn't do anything if we don't address the social aspect of the homeless problem.
I agree, and I wasn't trying to suggest that we just push the homeless somewhere else so that affluent shoppers don't have to deal with the reality of their problems. I was only suggesting that the current location of the Road Home shelter is far less than ideal, that the status quo is getting progressively worse, and that other solutions should be explored.

If you think about it, the homeless in the area are probably just as unhappy about the changes to the neighborhood as anyone else. It cant be encouraging to a person who is down on his luck to see all of the wealth and prosperity across the street that they aren't a part of.

One way or another because of the market value of the neighborhood, the shelter isn't going to be there forever. Eventually property values will grow enough that the shelter gets pushed out of the area and we'll be scrambling to find another affordable location. Why not be proactive now, before the problems get worse and try to find a better, multi-approach solution. This could include social and mental health services, affordable housing, training facilities and employment assistance. I like the idea of moving such services somewhere near welfare square. Ideally, these kinds of services should only be a temporary solution to get people back on their feet.

On the other hand I don't know what to do about those who are chronically homeless and make no effort to change their lives. There are probably a lot of homeless people that are living in shelters or with family that are working hard to improve their condition. I could walk by them and not notice anything different about them, but the chronically homeless seem to be the 'bums' that are most visible and everybody complains about. Perhaps better mental help facilities could help these people.

Like it or not, the area is gentrifying and now is the time to work toward a solution that will benefit both the needs of the homeless population and the economic vitality of downtown's west side.
     
     
  #2732  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 9:25 PM
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I'm just saying that there is never an ideal place for a homeless shelter and just moving it won't do much, if anything, at curbing our homeless problem. The problem with those articles you posted is that these people are content with just saying MOVE IT, but don't understand that the problem lies deeper than just the shelter itself. This goes beyond a Salt Lake problem, it's a national problem and frankly, I think we need to look at this issue in a broader sense.

As for homeless people that stay homeless for the sake of it, I think they are -- in my works with them -- in the minority. But it isn't about that, because even if only 40% of the homeless population were actually hard workers, trying to make something of their lives, we should make it an issue. Ideally, there would be no homeless population, but this isn't an ideal world. There are issues, whether economic or mental that have a great impact here and we need to address those. We are not and too many are content with just moving the shelter instead of looking at what is really causing these problems in the first place.
     
     
  #2733  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 10:08 PM
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Not that the Homeless conversation isn’t intriguing and all. I just thought of a slight deviation in topic might be nice. My wife and I are considering building a small home and I thought I'd seek the opinions of architectural nuts such as myself.

I couldnt get the image to work. Click here to see the design.

We are going to modify the plan slightly. Thank goodness for all those years of drafting. Honestly. What do you think?
     
     
  #2734  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by millhouse View Post
Not that the Homeless conversation isn’t intriguing and all. I just thought of a slight deviation in topic might be nice. My wife and I are considering building a small home and I thought I'd seek the opinions of architectural nuts such as myself.

I couldnt get the image to work. Click here to see the design.

We are going to modify the plan slightly. Thank goodness for all those years of drafting. Honestly. What do you think?
It's different, but in a good way Where will it be built? I think the character of the neighborhood might make it less/more attractive.
     
     
  #2735  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 10:20 PM
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Moving the shelter won't solve the problem. I agree that that part of Rio Grand Street is key in connecting the gateway with the Broadway District. But I am concerned about the social consequences of moving the shelter. What type of message will that send to the community? Will that message perpetuate or even justify bigotry? Maybe the shelter could be rebuilt with ground floor retail... There must be another solution that does not involve moving the shelter. Any Ideas?
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Originally Posted by stevena07 View Post
They always scare me at least alone.
Yes, there are valid concerns. However, I think a lot of this fear comes from prejudice, generalizations, and bigotry. I'm not trying to rag on you stevena, we all have or make these at times. I think the more we infill and build up density, as far as housing and population goes, the more natural surveillance and "eyes on the street" (and park, might I add) we will have. Thus, there will be less crime (people are less likely to do stupid things if they feel they are being watched). There will be more opportunities to mill and mingle, and as a result many of these social problems will heal themselves.
     
     
  #2736  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 10:27 PM
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Like I said, I park at the Rio Grande at night and walk to the Gateway and I've only had a problem once and it wasn't even a big deal. I go down the street the homeless shelter is on and take photos, even had my camera hanging off my neck once. Most just ignore me, some ask if I can take their photos, others just yell out "don't take my photo," and I don't.

As for Pioneer Park, a lot of the crime there isn't because of the homeless shelter. Most of that is do to the fact it's a park in the inner city and generally, that's where crime in big cities exists. But the area, while bad at times, is nowhere near as bad as it was in the 1990s.
     
     
  #2737  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Comrade Reynolds View Post
It's different, but in a good way Where will it be built? I think the character of the neighborhood might make it less/more attractive.
I have my eye on two different lots. One in East Layton another in Ogden. I’m leaning towards Ogden. The home would fit in with the neighborhood.
     
     
  #2738  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by urbanboy View Post
Moving the shelter won't solve the problem. I agree that that part of Rio Grand Street is key in connecting the gateway with the Broadway District. But I am concerned about the social consequences of moving the shelter. What type of message will that send to the community? Will that message perpetuate or even justify bigotry? Maybe the shelter could be rebuilt with ground floor retail... There must be another solution that does not involve moving the shelter. Any Ideas?

Yes, there are valid concerns. However, I think a lot of this fear comes from prejudice, generalizations, and bigotry. I'm not trying to rag on you stevena, we all have or make these at times. I think the more we infill and build up density, as far as housing and population goes, the more natural surveillance and "eyes on the street" (and park, might I add) we will have. Thus, there will be less crime (people are less likely to do stupid things if they feel they are being watched). There will be more opportunities to mill and mingle, and as a result many of these social problems will heal themselves.
That's an incredibly over-idealistic assumption. The rich and the poor are diametrically opposed and have been from the dawn of human civilization. I don't know of anywhere on earth that the problem of homelessness has healed its self because of tolerance and acceptance. Every city in the world has to deal with the homeless and the notion that putting these groups of people together will make them tolerate and love one another makes no sense at all.
Who in the hell would want to live in a mixed-use development with "homeless shelter over ground floor retail" as a component? The homeless have to go, preferably by changing their situations and moving into permanent housing throughout the city. Those that are still in transition or chronically homeless should have ample services available to them, but those sevices simply shouldn't be located in an up-and-coming entertainment district in the heart of the city and the public eye.
     
     
  #2739  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 10:51 PM
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I have my eye on two different lots. One in East Layton another in Ogden. I’m leaning towards Ogden. The home would fit in with the neighborhood.
Yeah, I'd build it in Ogden. The house would also look good in the Harvard/Yale neighborhood of Salt Lake, though that would require demolishing a home for the lot (I don't like that idea).
     
     
  #2740  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 10:53 PM
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I like the design and would second the Ogden location.
     
     
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