AUSTIN | Projects & Construction II - Page 59

meljoe · #**1161** Posted **Jul 21, 2007, 1:48 PM**

It's unfortunate that the Spring development has taken this path. I also wanted to believe that the developer was sincere in their marketing of the project. Over two years ago I joined their reservation list and I actively supported the variance they requested for the site.

As soon as their pricing information was released, we knew that we could not afford the crazy money they want for their units. More importantly, I didn't see how the market would supports such prices.

We decided to go to our "selection appointment" anyway to see what they had to say about the huge increases. They basically blamed it on the cost of construction, especially all the expensive glass.

When I told them we would not be selecting a unit and aksed for my reservation money back, they asked why. I told them that Spring was too expensive and that their scheduled completetion date was too far out.

I told them we were buying in 360. That's when one of their partners told me and my wife, "Why? Spring will be done about the same time as 360, maybe a few months later..."

Why would anybody commit so much money to people who have no problem lying again and again?

MichaelB · #**1162** Posted **Jul 21, 2007, 4:42 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by evergreen1

So MichaelB we don't "bristle" because you mention other buildings. We may bristle cause we have to explain something that makes us sound dismissive of a concern. As far as all the new buildings...its all good news. Good architecture and good placement. Please note the buildings all getting more slender and taller. The point tower has come to Austin and won't leave for a while.

OK, I'll bite. If by "we" you are involved with Spring. Please let that be known. I am sure there is more than one person who would love to talk to you on here! And if indeed you are, while I appreciate your point of view and applaud your highrise enthusiasm. Perhaps you should know the woman who runs your sales office (unless that is you!) does not share your view/tenor. Sorry. She not only brisltes, but is rather arrogant about folks "coming back".( I have taken several friends/associates there to consider the building.)She actually pulled the "oh, you'll be back" bit on a friend of mine. Yikes, wonder how many sales you have lost because of her?
(Oh, and the "you better sign now, because the prices are going up" sales line has gotten old and insulting.)

And if you are not involved with Spring, "nevermid"!. But it is good info for other potential buyers......

And speaking of all you lurkers who are considering buying downtown..... come on dow! But as far as views are concerned, any reasonable person would find out what the potentail for growth is around a development.

If it can be built on..... it will. Right? Gotta expect it.

And check your info personally. Whether by will, omission, or lack of info, many sales folks are seldom the resource you want to rely upon for zoning and future development info. I actually had a sales person at Austin City Lofts "swear" to an assosciate ( I had taken to consider purchasing there) that the property accross the street was zoned such that nothing tall could be built there. Guess they didn't tell ZOM! I took that friend away from that sale as well. Oh, they bought there..... but with a better education and a different sales person!

Mopacs · #**1163** Posted **Jul 21, 2007, 5:26 PM**

Here are some construction update shots taken yesterday afternoon and evening (7/20). 360 is really coming along, and the upper floors of Monarch are back underway.

Monarch

360

From W 6th Street

THe Shore... about 2 floors to go

Other/Distant shots

From the new Town Lake Park

From S 1st Street Bridge

City Hall, with 360 peeking above to the left

From Embassy parking garage

MichaelB · #**1164** Posted **Jul 21, 2007, 5:42 PM**

Hey Mopacs..... nice shots! Is Town lake park open or did you sneak in? It's nice, eh? ( we "found" our way in, too!)

KevinFromTexas · #**1165** Posted **Jul 22, 2007, 12:42 AM**

Nice shots. I'm glad you went to take pics, since there's been a lull in updates due to the weather and all.

I was just studying 360 in the Mopacs' pictures, and man, they still have 15 floors to go. It's up to the 29th level now. Check it out, they're 13 levels above the 16th floor setback now. That means they'll have to double that height, plus 2 more floors to reach the top. So it's still got a ways to go before it tops out. And it should start to make an appearance on the skyline from here in South Austin in the next month, about 2 to 3 more floors and it should be about level with where the crane is now, around 350 feet up.

Here's a shot I took from Emerald Forest Drive, this is about 1/4 of a mile from my house, take last month. The crane for The Monarch also just barely pops up from a different point along that street. I don't think the building itself will show up there, but Spring should which will be a just to its left. There are several buildings that show up along there, Dobie Center, UT Tower, 300 West Sixth, One America Center, Frost Bank Tower and One Congress Plaza, and no doubt more as time goes on.

evergreen1 · #**1166** Posted **Jul 22, 2007, 3:35 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelB

OK, I'll bite. If by "we" you are involved with Spring. Please let that be known. I am sure there is more than one person who would love to talk to you on here! And if indeed you are, while I appreciate your point of view and applaud your highrise enthusiasm. Perhaps you should know the woman who runs your sales office (unless that is you!) does not share your view/tenor. Sorry. She not only brisltes, but is rather arrogant about folks "coming back".( I have taken several friends/associates there to consider the building.)She actually pulled the "oh, you'll be back" bit on a friend of mine. Yikes, wonder how many sales you have lost because of her?
(Oh, and the "you better sign now, because the prices are going up" sales line has gotten old and insulting.)

And if you are not involved with Spring, "nevermid"!. But it is good info for other potential buyers......

And speaking of all you lurkers who are considering buying downtown..... come on dow! But as far as views are concerned, any reasonable person would find out what the potentail for growth is around a development.

If it can be built on..... it will. Right? Gotta expect it.

And check your info personally. Whether by will, omission, or lack of info, many sales folks are seldom the resource you want to rely upon for zoning and future development info. I actually had a sales person at Austin City Lofts "swear" to an assosciate ( I had taken to consider purchasing there) that the property accross the street was zoned such that nothing tall could be built there. Guess they didn't tell ZOM! I took that friend away from that sale as well. Oh, they bought there..... but with a better education and a different sales person!

Michael I do not disagree with anything you have said. The only thing seems the intonation that anything you will get at a sales center is either a lie or glosses over the "real" problems. I could spend all my time here trying to rebut the misinformation people feel compelled to post.I know I have more facts and real information but if it is dismissed becasue "I am involved" its a little pointless to respond to each. I will make this overal comment because there is such a widespread acceptance that prices are high and that may spell trouble because there are so many buildings planned. First the supply is not a major factor in fact we have had high prices before because Austin could not support the quality subcontractors that could drive prices down. With more projects to bid on we may get more bidders. Secondly and most importantly it is demand that will drive prices as it has always done. The intereting thing is that each new building seems to bring its own demand and its own demographic. Demand is increasing much faster than supply. When we started the Nokonah some friends teased us that they would rather buy them cheaper on the courthouse steps. Well no one has been that lucky. Every sale I am aware of has been for substantially more than the orginal price. So there is something to pre buying...not always but certainly can be.
I think we are still in first half of the game. Another ten or 15 years of robust downtown development and New Yorkers will be buying pied a terres here. By the way...they already are!!

MichaelB · #**1167** Posted **Jul 22, 2007, 8:28 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by evergreen1

Michael I do not disagree with anything you have said. The only thing seems the intonation that anything you will get at a sales center is either a lie or glosses over the "real" problems. I could spend all my time here trying to rebut the misinformation people feel compelled to post.I know I have more facts and real information but if it is dismissed becasue "I am involved" its a little pointless to respond to each. I will make this overal comment because there is such a widespread acceptance that prices are high and that may spell trouble because there are so many buildings planned. First the supply is not a major factor in fact we have had high prices before because Austin could not support the quality subcontractors that could drive prices down. With more projects to bid on we may get more bidders. Secondly and most importantly it is demand that will drive prices as it has always done. The intereting thing is that each new building seems to bring its own demand and its own demographic. Demand is increasing much faster than supply. When we started the Nokonah some friends teased us that they would rather buy them cheaper on the courthouse steps. Well no one has been that lucky. Every sale I am aware of has been for substantially more than the orginal price. So there is something to pre buying...not always but certainly can be.
I think we are still in first half of the game. Another ten or 15 years of robust downtown development and New Yorkers will be buying pied a terres here. By the way...they already are!!

Interestingly enough, I do not disagree with your pricing or economic points either. Demand is demand. My only personal point for you was that the folks representing you in the salesroom may not be helping your cause!

I will let others take on the issue of afforadability.

Oh, and by the way.... don't show stained concrete in the showroom if you can't have it in the condos!!!!!!! Sets up a dissapointment. (DOn;t you love free advice?

) Can;t wait to see the building and get a personal tour!

evergreen1 · #**1168** Posted **Jul 22, 2007, 9:18 PM**

Most happily will give you the .50 tour. I can't wait for the frame of building to go up. We make a lot about the advantages of the point tower. No wasted space incomparable views etc. But when the building is up you don't have to believe us just your lying eyes. While 500k for a two bedroom sounds pricey please remember every two bedroom in on corner of building...almost a quarter of a floor. If you compare that to the cost of any other two bedroom let alone one on corner downtown you will see how reasonable Spring is.

Concrete floors....condos are not about maintenance and developers hate uncertainty. No way to predict concrete floor will be good enough for finish floor standard. And its noicey neither acceptable to most buyers.

MichaelB · #**1169** Posted **Jul 23, 2007, 2:37 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by evergreen1

Most happily will give you the .50 tour. I can't wait for the frame of building to go up. We make a lot about the advantages of the point tower. No wasted space incomparable views etc. But when the building is up you don't have to believe us just your lying eyes. While 500k for a two bedroom sounds pricey please remember every two bedroom in on corner of building...almost a quarter of a floor. If you compare that to the cost of any other two bedroom let alone one on corner downtown you will see how reasonable Spring is.

Concrete floors....condos are not about maintenance and developers hate uncertainty. No way to predict concrete floor will be good enough for finish floor standard. And its noicey neither acceptable to most buyers.

.50 it is!

evergreen1 · #**1170** Posted **Jul 23, 2007, 2:39 AM**

Let me comment a little more on prices/pricing and market direction. First while many find it convinient to use a $/sq ft benchmarket it can be very misleading. First different types of construction are vastly different in cost. Stick built is a third of high rise concrete construction costs...and those buildings will require much more maintenance and not last nearly as long.
Second even within similar types of construction there are vast differences. AC , venting, gas, hot water, all the mechanical issues can be handled very differently with much different cost implications. How about operable windows and window type! All this is costly and its never the same building to building.

Finally the City wants to get more aggressive on fees and "affordability" subsidies. Ok well all this raises costs...how are costs to decline with a more aggressive city posture?

Overall profits even if contractor and developer and bank all worked for free would still not be a major factor in costs. All high rise is headed much higher soon. Its a worldwide trend and its not going to change soon. a thousand a foot maybe? yep soon enough it scares me but I have seen more scary things in markets before.

There may be some satisfaction on bashing developers for all this I defend the industry by saying what we are building will last hundreds of years and provide communittee wide benefits as long. The tons of air pollution each building alone saves is staggering.

In short sustainability and affordability go hand in hand. By desiging more sustainable cities and buildings we can make Austin more affordable.

Mopacs · #**1171** Posted **Jul 23, 2007, 3:05 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelB

Hey Mopacs..... nice shots! Is Town lake park open or did you sneak in? It's nice, eh? ( we "found" our way in, too!)

Thanks as always for the comments. M.B...I wasn't quite as adventurous as you... I simply poked my camera lens between the slots in the chain link fence! Nevertheless, I was very impressed with the initial design of the park, even from my limited perspective.

Here are a few more shots taken yesterday while showing an old friend around town:

Monarch

360 and Monarch from Congress bridge

360 from the Post Office

another view from 6th St

The Gatti Wagon

Here are more distant views... from Barton Creek Mall

"Drive-By" views from the Ben White - I35 flyover

Miscellaneous shots....

West Campus condos

Old Faithful

priller · #**1172** Posted **Jul 23, 2007, 1:03 PM**

Nice angle from the Barton Creek mall. Can you get up in that parking garage that's in the foreground?

GoldenBoot · #**1173** Posted **Jul 23, 2007, 3:24 PM**

It seems that current plans call for a 44-story, 580' tower...

Developers seek expanded FAR for 21c high-rise

IN FACT NEWS
July 23, 2007

Members of the Design Commission are scheduled for a briefing on the planned 21c Hotel project tonight.

As explained to the Downtown Commission last week, developers of the hotel are hoping to convince city leaders to grant them a greatly increased floor-to-area ratio than what is currently allowed for the property at 301 Brazos. The change would allow Art Commerce Entertainment Unlimited of Kentucky to build a 580-foot, 44-story tower east of the block where White Lodging plans to build a new Marriott hotel.

Attorney John Donisi of Drenner and Golden said he and developers are still in the process of working with nearby residents and the Downtown Austin Neighborhood Association. They eventually plan to go the Planning Commission for a zoning change on the property from CBD to CBD-CURE to allow an increase from the current FAR of 8 to 1 to a FAR of nearly 20 to 1.

The project will be similar to the existing 21c Museum Hotel in Louisville, Ky., but with several elements reflecting the unique culture and history of Austin. Plans call for a 580-foot, 44-story tower to include an upscale hotel, condominiums and artists’ lofts, and a museum and restaurants.

“This is really trying to capture the theme in the 21c project that exists now…in terms of mixing art and commerce,” Donisi said. That will include reserving some of the approximately 200 condo units within the project at below-market rates specifically for artists. “The theory is that creative folks have been drawn to Austin for a very long time, and we’d like to be able to provide some housing in downtown that may not be accessible right now,” Donisi said. Final details have not been worked out on whether the below-market rate units will meet the city’s definition of affordable housing.

Those condominium units will be in the tallest portion of the tower, which will only occupy a portion of the site at Third and Brazos. Whitley Printing currently occupies the lot, but that business will be re-locating to make way for the new hotel tower.

“There have been a lot of redevelopment projects in downtown Austin, a lot of them located west of Congress Ave. and west of Colorado,” said Donisi. “We’re starting to see some projects moving a little bit over to the east, and this project we feel is well situated one block east of Congress and one block from the Austin Convention Center.”

The hotel will include approximately 220 rooms, but that portion of the tower will not rise as high as the condos. Donisi said the developers planned to comply with standards set out in the city’s Great Streets program and in Austin Energy’s Green Building program. Developers may also take steps to insulate the project from the noise associated with the downtown entertainment district. “We are being educated about loud noise by our friends at The Railyard,” Donisi said, referring to the condominium complex on Fourth Street. “That’s what they deal with all the time.”

Developers did not ask the commission for a recommendation but commissioners reacted favorably after asking a few questions. Art Commerce Entertainment hopes to begin construction on the $220 million project early in 2008.

Jdawgboy · #**1174** Posted **Jul 23, 2007, 4:20 PM**

I knew it would be taller than Frost! I had a feeling when the first artical came out it would be since they mentioned it would be one of the tallest. at 580 feet it would put it taller than 360.

RobDSM · #**1175** Posted **Jul 23, 2007, 8:49 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by priller

Nice angle from the Barton Creek mall. Can you get up in that parking garage that's in the foreground?

That's the garage for SigmaTel and Intel--and there are no gates, at least there weren't back in January. Great views from the top floor. One of you guys with the nice cameras should head up there. Been meaning to myself.

priller · #**1176** Posted **Jul 23, 2007, 8:57 PM**

My new job is in the building next to it, the one that says "DLA Piper" on the outside. I guess I should check out my own parking garage, too.

KevinFromTexas · #**1177** Posted **Jul 24, 2007, 2:32 AM**

Great news on the 21C. 580 to the roof will be a big boost to the skyline. 65 feet taller than the crown of Frost Bank Tower, 17 feet taller than the spire on 360, but it'll be 108 feet taller than the roof of 360, and 185 feet taller than One American Center.

Strayone · #**1178** Posted **Jul 24, 2007, 3:54 AM**

What the heck I turn my back for 1 minute and something like this pops up. Oh the madness!

sc1264 · #**1179** Posted **Jul 24, 2007, 1:15 PM**

21c is the best designed proposal in Austin by far. It's really nice to finally see some quality architecture being proposed. Although I love all the activity, the design quality of the vast majority of the buildings either proposed or being built leaves a lot to be desired.

Xeelee · #**1180** Posted **Jul 24, 2007, 1:36 PM**

cool pics.