Sacramento Proposal/Approval/Construction Thread - III

[innov8]

^ Give it a break already... take this to PM.

[What is a Rivercat?]

Travis, you're wrong I'm afraid. As a republican and supporter of high-rises all over our region, I present the following as proof:




This is pretty much the ONLY building taller than 12 stories anywhere between Phoenix and Los Angeles.

[wburg]

itsmotorsport: I didn't say the buildings were "fit"--in the best cases they are neglected and run-down, in the worst cases burnt-out shells. And because the owner valued the future speculative value of the land, rather than the building itself, they allowed the boarded-up facade to sit vacant rather than attempt any sort of repair, rehabilitation or, well, doing anything but slapping some plywood on the openings and letting it become a bat habitat.

(late-evening Sacramento tip: At just before sundown, go hang out in the alley between the Crest Theater and the Copenhagen Building. When the sun goes down, a giant swarm of bats flies out of the Copenhagen's attic. It's most dramatic, if you're into swarms of flying rodents.)

I'm sorry if my Dubya/Saca comment started a politics flamewar. Personally I have little good to say about either Republicans or Democrats. Other than a brief stint as a Libertarian, I have been a member of the "Decline to State" party for twenty years now. I don't think that environmentalism and city building are mutually exclusive--nobody is suggesting that we go back to living on the land, largely because the land doesn't have the carrying capacity for seven billion hunter/gatherers.

Growing awareness of environmental issues, in cities and out (starting largely with Republicans like Teddy Roosevelt a century ago) have made cities more liveable places (compare reports of sooty, filthy cities a century ago to the modern age.) The disease, filth and squalor of 19th century cities were largely what created the demand for the "suburb": they were considered a healthful option, made possible by advances in transportation, to living in a city where coal smoke filled the air and horse poop filled the streets. Even after cities got cleaner, the assumption that cities were filthy and evil, and suburbs were clean and good, drove suburban sprawl to new extents with the introduction of the automobile and government-subsidized freeways.

We're entering an age where the demand for renewable, clean and efficient technologies in housing, transit and city building are creating business opportunities for those willing to risk it. Of course, those who made their wad building things the old way are either going to oppose such means, as anyone who is about to be technologically outpaced is likely to do, or adapt to survive.

[travis bickle]

Originally Posted by What is a Rivercat?

Travis, you're wrong I'm afraid. As a republican and supporter of high-rises all over our region, I present the following as proof:




This is pretty much the ONLY building taller than 12 stories anywhere between Phoenix and Los Angeles.

I'm not following ya Rivercat

And I think that is a desert site off the I-10 in either Banning or near Palm Springs. That is connected to mountain meadow ecosystems how?

[What is a Rivercat?]

It's connected in that it has no notable adverse environmental consequences, which is what I understand your argument to be - that isolated skyscrapers are bad for the natural surroundings. Of course, if that is not your argument, please disregard my comments and simply enjoy the pictures.

[travis bickle]

(late-evening Sacramento tip: At just before sundown, go hang out in the alley between the Crest Theater and the Copenhagen Building. When the sun goes down, a giant swarm of bats flies out of the Copenhagen's attic. It's most dramatic, if you're into swarms of flying rodents.)

Good God Wburg... who doesn't love flying rodents? Next time I'm in town... I'm in! Hey perhaps you could organize a walking tour of historical Sacramento for some of us here on the board. Your knowledge of our town's history seems unparalleled, and I know I'd really enjoy it.

What'd'ya say?

'm sorry if my Dubya/Saca comment started a politics flamewar.

Don't sweat it. I meant my reply in the same playful spirit with which you posted. If some want to get bent and call me an idiot... that's their problem.

The disease, filth and squalor of 19th century cities were largely what created the demand for the "suburb": they were considered a healthful option, made possible by advances in transportation, to living in a city where coal smoke filled the air and horse poop filled the streets. Even after cities got cleaner, the assumption that cities were filthy and evil.

I recently finished 'The Devil in the White City" which is, in part, about the Chicago World's fair. It addresses what a cesspool the Chicago of that period was and what some of the country's greatest minds thought an ideal city should be. The contrasts are facinating.

We're entering an age where the demand for renewable, clean and efficient technologies in housing, transit and city building are creating business opportunities for those willing to risk it.

And, as usual, the private sector will deliver the means to satisfy that demand far more quickly, cheaply and efficiently than any government program could ever hope to.

Of course, those who made their wad building things the old way are either going to oppose such means, as anyone who is about to be technologically outpaced is likely to do, or adapt to survive.

You are dead-on here (so to speak). Adapt or die. We are in a transition toward a more sustainable society (except for certain casinos of course) and I truly believe most people want to live that way. Having Sacramento begin to hit its stride during this more aware period bodes well for its future. The striving for more sustainability is part of what makes this period so thrilling for planners and developers.

[travis bickle]

Originally Posted by What is a Rivercat?

It's connected in that it has no notable adverse environmental consequences, which is what I understand your argument to be - that isolated skyscrapers are bad for the natural surroundings. Of course, if that is not your argument, please disregard my comments and simply enjoy the pictures.

Well, I have driven by that project on occasion and first we should note it is a desert location with nearby major freeway access so that alone makes comparisons to a pristine meadow in a grasslands/mountain environment suspect at best. Secondly, I would suggest that there are severe and unmitigated issues regarding greatly increased traffic (and all the carbon increasing gasses it brings with it). Acres of asphalt which increases the local temp while paving over precious desert land, and I would expect severe storm drain run-off issues that dump tons of pollutants into the surrounding eco system. Hey, if you know more about this project and all of these issues (and others) are unquestionably addressed to everyone’s satisfaction - then I’m wrong.

But a 23 storey tower in a previously unspoiled meadow I'm not wrong about.

And most people here know it, but their hatred or greed get in the way.

[wburg]

travis: I'm sure we can figure out something. I do know a couple of Downtown Guides who do downtown history tours that are pretty spiff.

I read "Devil in the White City" too and kind of got a different message from it--more along the lines of how the World's Fair started the "City Beautiful" movement, which, over the next half-century or so, displaced a lot of people and destroyed a lot of neighborhoods in order to create grand plazas at public expense, while ignoring or avoiding the actual social problems in cities. The disconnects between what "great minds" thought cities should be, and what people who lived in cities actually thought about the places where they lived, resulted in some serious injustices.

Without throwing things too far athwart, the private sector tends to benefit most from technological innovations that received massive government subsidy for decades (assorted spin-off technology from military, space program, and other pure-research spending.) The free market can do a lot, but it can't do it all.

My own bit of optimism is a part of that current trend: Sacramento is finally shaking off its small-city mindset and realizing that its history is valuable, worthwhile--and marketable. There's a growing body of work to support historic preservation and high-tech, ecologically sound development as mutually supporting and concurrent trends.

[travis bickle]

I read "Devil in the White City" too and kind of got a different message from it--more along the lines of how the World's Fair started the "City Beautiful" movement, which, over the next half-century or so, displaced a lot of people and destroyed a lot of neighborhoods in order to create grand plazas at public expense, while ignoring or avoiding the actual social problems in cities. The disconnects between what "great minds" thought cities should be, and what people who lived in cities actually thought about the places where they lived, resulted in some serious injustices.

I think we got the same message, I just wasn't as articulate as I'd have liked. I compare the damage done by builders and planners of that era, after seeing a make-believe dream city - to today's planners who fall in love with their colored pens and site plans but are not as concerned with how the project or community actually "lives." Those contrasts and how those great and well-intentioned minds addressed them was the point I was trying to make.

Without throwing things too far athwart, the private sector tends to benefit most from technological innovations that received massive government subsidy for decades (assorted spin-off technology from military, space program, and other pure-research spending.) The free market can do a lot, but it can't do it all.

Obviously I don't agree with that statement in toto, but I do agree that the private sector can't do it all.

Sacramento is finally shaking off its small-city mindset and realizing that its history is valuable, worthwhile--and marketable.

This is a nexus that has repeatedly proven successful. It's thrilling to see Sacramento begin to embrace it outside of Old Sac.

[econgrad]

^^
I see others complaining about the above dialogues, I for one thought it was interesting. I believe the Indian Casino's should have been located in more of an urban area like downtown instead of outlying undeveloped areas. That hotel would sure be nice near the Sacramento river in west Sacramento.

[innov8]

No, the dialog that was going to run this thread into the ground was the
Democrat vs. Republican political —. There’s a whole other forum made
just for that kind of debate right here: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=30&f=14

[jsf8278]

Originally Posted by travis bickle

The building on the far left foreground... that really beautiful one with the strange brown blocks.
That was actually a 70s redesign by Ed Kado, Ziggurat and 621 Capitol Mall (Parthenon version and present) architect.
So as you can see, Kado is no stranger to hideous design.

Regarding some of the Saca comments, I just hope he doesn't go all "Clinton" on us, and try to force something down our throats...
or go all "Kerry" on us, and shoot himself in the — again (although the purple heart does look nice next to his wife's millions),...
or go all "Reid" on us and declare the battle lost before he even has all of his forces on the ground...
or go all "Murtha" on us and accept bribes for services rendered (or merely promised)...
or go all "Pelosi" on us and accomplish absolutely nothing since seizing power...

Hey, comparing political hypocrisy and futility to a local developer is easy and fun.
Thanks for introducing the game to us guys!

As a disgruntled Democrat, I found that to be pretty damn funny; quite witty you are.

[Phillip]

Originally Posted by travis bickle

Well, I have driven by that project on occasion and first we should note it is a desert location with nearby major freeway access so that alone makes comparisons to a pristine meadow in a grasslands/mountain environment suspect at best.

Have Roseville Galleria and Thunder Valley Casino really gone back to pristine meadow? I really need to get up there soon and check out the changes.

To my mind the difference between the Cabazon casino/hotel and the one proposed in Roseville is that Cabazon is next to an outlet mall while Roseville's mall is full priced.

[Cynikal]

Originally Posted by travis bickle

Good God Wburg... who doesn't love flying rodents? Next time I'm in town... I'm in! Hey perhaps you could organize a walking tour of historical Sacramento for some of us here on the board. Your knowledge of our town's history seems unparalleled, and I know I'd really enjoy it.

What'd'ya say?

I would be in to this if some materializes.

If you are into walking tours, the Urban Design Alliance is giving a walking tour of Oak Park Thursday (21st) evening from 6-7:30. The tour will be lead by Prof. Robin Datel of Sac State's geography dept.

[greenmidtown]

Originally Posted by travis bickle

Regarding some of the Saca comments, I just hope he doesn't go all "Clinton" on us, and try to force something down our throats...
or go all "Kerry" on us, and shoot himself in the — again (although the purple heart does look nice next to his wife's millions),...
or go all "Reid" on us and declare the battle lost before he even has all of his forces on the ground...
or go all "Murtha" on us and accept bribes for services rendered (or merely promised)...
or go all "Pelosi" on us and accomplish absolutely nothing since seizing power...

granted democrats are hypocrites but to type out such a long thought-out response out of offense from a slight comment targeting our incompetent War Criminal in Chief shows how pathetic you are. you're not even from here. keep your political commentary to yourself next time because after 7 years of Bush — nobody is going to let an asinine Republican hit-job go unanswered.

[travis bickle]

Originally Posted by greenmidtown

granted democrats are hypocrites but to type out such a long thought-out response out of offense from a slight comment targeting our incompetent War Criminal in Chief shows how pathetic you are. you're not even from here. keep your political commentary to yourself next time because after 7 years of Bush — nobody is going to let an asinine Republican hit-job go unanswered.

Ah yes... the tolerant left at their finest. Oh, and BTW - took me about a minute for that. All you have to do is be informed. You ought to try it sometime...

[wburg]

Originally Posted by Cynikal

I would be in to this if some materializes.

If you are into walking tours, the Urban Design Alliance is giving a walking tour of Oak Park Thursday (21st) evening from 6-7:30. The tour will be lead by Prof. Robin Datel of Sac State's geography dept.

Where are they going to meet for this tour?

[greenmidtown]

Originally Posted by travis bickle

Ah yes... the tolerant left at their finest. Oh, and BTW - took me about a minute for that. All you have to do is be informed. You ought to try it sometime...

I wouldn't be surprised if you just copied and pasted lines from a Republican blog. and you think you're informed? delusion at its finest. 3500 dead americans, over 25,000 wounded, over 300 billion dollars of our money spent and you still can't give us a good reason why. the burden of proof is on you so shoot. why should we stay in iraq and allow more americans and iraqi civilians to die? I don't care how witty your ad hominem attacks are I want to know why chicken-hawks like you think Americans should continue to die for nothing?

[travis bickle]

Originally Posted by greenmidtown

I wouldn't be surprised if you just copied and pasted lines from a Republican blog. and you think you're informed? delusion at its finest. 3500 dead americans, over 25,000 wounded, over 300 billion dollars of our money spent and you still can't give us a good reason why. the burden of proof is on you so shoot. why should we stay in iraq and allow more americans and iraqi civilians to die? I don't care how witty your ad hominem attacks are I want to know why chicken-hawks like you think Americans should continue to die for nothing?

This is not the place for this type of mindless ranting. You can PM me or, better yet, just run along like a good little buffoon.

BTW - I was born in Roseville. That makes you "0" for "2." A ratio I'm sure you're used to.

[cozmoose]

Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has no heart; and
any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains
- Winston Churchhill