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  #741  
Old Posted May 2, 2007, 11:53 PM
budman budman is offline
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^officially announced October 2005, but anticipated many months before then. Teng decided to relocate elsewhere fairly early on in the project.
     
     
  #742  
Old Posted May 3, 2007, 3:16 AM
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  #743  
Old Posted May 3, 2007, 3:46 AM
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When did they open the borders on the left hand corner of the 2nd pic?
     
     
  #744  
Old Posted May 3, 2007, 3:51 AM
Norsider Norsider is offline
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Originally Posted by SamInTheLoop View Post
One thing that should be clear is that these new A+ office towers are completely tenant-driven. The city's best office tenants are demanding the very latest and greatest in their office space. Where's the evidence? Look at all of the towers that have delivered over the past 4 or 5 years - despite having much higher rental rates than older office buildings, tenants continue to flock to these new towers - I think every large tower completed thus far in the decade probably is less than 5% vacant. My point is - it's not that developers are being reckless and continuing to develop buildings the market does not want or need. Quite the opposite - the market is demanding them, but actually does not need (at least in their current use - don't worry I'm not advocating demolition of architecturally significant structures) a lot of the older office inventory. Downtown Chicago actually has a significantly lower percentage of class A office space (out of the overall office stock) than downtown sf, la, ny, dc, even boston. This would seem to support continuing construction of new state-of-the-art office towers (environmentally friendly, quality design, and all that other good stuff, etc) for many years to come...
This is dead on. I would say also that the new John Buck tower with Skadden Arps as the anchor is basically a spec building. Skadden's only taking about 180,000 sf. Not enough to anchor a building all by itself. Brand new modern Class A is a very very very good thing for this city.
     
     
  #745  
Old Posted May 3, 2007, 4:05 AM
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I don't see the difficulty. There could be some type of common space like a fitness and amenities floor that seperate them.
The difficulty comes from the fact that most office tenants don't want to be in the same building with people's homes. Most buildings are not big enough to have a segmented lobby/elevator system only for residential. A CEO doesn't want to ride the elevator with someone teenage kid and his friends. Plus, the extra elevator eats up floor space.

In addition, property managers would be overwhelmed by the sheer amount of calls from the residential portion and cause their service to be either very expensive or very poor.

Office towers are cash cows, whereas condo space generates nothing. People buy office buildings for the cash flow. Having a bunch of condos plopped on top as dead weight doesn't exactly make the building more desirable to a secondary buyer. The margins on condo towers are razor thin compared to office space. And you only make money on condos once.

Also, you think an investment bank like Blair wants to be subject in any way conceivable to the whims of the condo board? Most mixed use projects at least split the different functions into the different buildings within the project. It's rare to see a successful office/residential building that houses anything even resembling a Class A tenant.

If it was a profitable activity, developers would do it. Since it is generally a bad idea, it doesn't get done.
     
     
  #746  
Old Posted May 3, 2007, 4:10 AM
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Originally Posted by SamInTheLoop View Post
^ Precisely. Trust me - these developers would love to build very tall mixed-use office+residential. There are very rational market realities why this is largely a dead skyscraper programmatic model in Chicago (having to do with issues of complexity, efficiency, image and others), and it just will not be coming back any time soon.....the very best we can realistically hope for in future office towers is mid-60s, story-wise......Obviously my disappointment in this unfortunate market reality is tempered by the fact that we have supertall residential and residential + hotel towers that are feasible...
Just one question: if there are all these reasons why mixed-use buildings don't work (which I completely agree with), then why would developers "love" to build them?

And why the fetish for mixed use anyway? It's certainly not a goal in and of itself. Why would someone set out to "mix uses" solely for its own sake. If you think about it, the city itself is a mixed use project. Why try to micromanage?
     
     
  #747  
Old Posted May 3, 2007, 4:34 AM
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^ Why? Because developers are often ego-driven. It looks good to build a 90-story building in a complex deal instead of a "simple" office. Because it makes a bigger impact on the city. And because, if you can pull it off, all of your units have Kamin-exciting "drop dead" views and command a premium dollar. Seems like a nice idea to me, if I were big-time.

Maybe that's why I am small potatoes and not big-time.

As the choice spots downtown get largely consumed during this boom, I predict we will see a resurgence in this type of development in years to come.
     
     
  #748  
Old Posted May 3, 2007, 4:43 AM
Marcu Marcu is offline
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Originally Posted by honte View Post
^ Why? Because developers are often ego-driven. It looks good to build a 90-story building in a complex deal instead of a "simple" office. Because it makes a bigger impact on the city. And because, if you can pull it off, all of your units have Kamin-exciting "drop dead" views and command a premium dollar. Seems like a nice idea to me, if I were big-time.

Maybe that's why I am small potatoes and not big-time.

As the choice spots downtown get largely consumed during this boom, I predict we will see a resurgence in this type of development in years to come.
The problem is once a building reaches a certain height each additional floor costs exponentially more money to build. So height is usually determined by land values not egoes.

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Originally Posted by Norsider View Post
Office towers are cash cows, whereas condo space generates nothing. People buy office buildings for the cash flow. Having a bunch of condos plopped on top as dead weight doesn't exactly make the building more desirable to a secondary buyer. The margins on condo towers are razor thin compared to office space. And you only make money on condos once.
Like the Hancock, most mixed-use towers are organized such that each part, or "use", is owned and managed by a seperate company. So the office part can be owned by a firm that prefers steady cash flow and the residential part can be owned by a company that prefers a one time cash payout. There is no one-owner-per-building rule. Companies can act in the same manner as households act in a condo building and own separate and often completely different parts of any building.
     
     
  #749  
Old Posted May 3, 2007, 12:09 PM
itsnotrequired itsnotrequired is offline
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Originally Posted by hi123 View Post
When did they open the borders on the left hand corner of the 2nd pic?
At least five years ago.
     
     
  #750  
Old Posted May 3, 2007, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Norsider View Post
The difficulty comes from the fact that most office tenants don't want to be in the same building with people's homes. Most buildings are not big enough to have a segmented lobby/elevator system only for residential. A CEO doesn't want to ride the elevator with someone teenage kid and his friends. Plus, the extra elevator eats up floor space.

In addition, property managers would be overwhelmed by the sheer amount of calls from the residential portion and cause their service to be either very expensive or very poor.

Office towers are cash cows, whereas condo space generates nothing. People buy office buildings for the cash flow. Having a bunch of condos plopped on top as dead weight doesn't exactly make the building more desirable to a secondary buyer. The margins on condo towers are razor thin compared to office space. And you only make money on condos once.

Also, you think an investment bank like Blair wants to be subject in any way conceivable to the whims of the condo board? Most mixed use projects at least split the different functions into the different buildings within the project. It's rare to see a successful office/residential building that houses anything even resembling a Class A tenant.

If it was a profitable activity, developers would do it. Since it is generally a bad idea, it doesn't get done.
Chicago was know for being inovative in the past, maybe it's time for developers and architects to break out those brains again to come up with something that works.
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  #751  
Old Posted May 3, 2007, 1:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcu View Post
Like the Hancock, most mixed-use towers are organized such that each part, or "use", is owned and managed by a seperate company. So the office part can be owned by a firm that prefers steady cash flow and the residential part can be owned by a company that prefers a one time cash payout. There is no one-owner-per-building rule. Companies can act in the same manner as households act in a condo building and own separate and often completely different parts of any building.
That's a good point, and I realize that you could make the entire office portion of a mixed use building essentially one large office condo, but still, office space within the context of a mixed use building is simply not as valuable as a comparable space in an office only tower. A mixed use building has more risk involved: relying on other owners, the owner has less control over building systems, etc. Plus, you just don't draw the same quality of tenants in a mixed use. So the credit is worse, so your leverage to buy is more expensive, so it's less profitable to own.

Taking your argument to its logical conclusion, office only towers could be split up with different owners too. But since doing so is pretty much a gigantic headache, no one wants to and it's practically never done. I've seen it a few times, but the end result is almost always a underleased building that gets bought out by a single owner and gets leased up. Like more or less everything else in this world, if it were a profitable activity, people would be doing it.

Seriously, from the developers point of view, what is the benefit of mixing uses? It sounds nice, I guess, but besides that what is there? Nearly all new office towers have large amenity bases, so the tenants aren't exactly lacking for anything. Why the temptation to stick houses on top? Plus, high office floors are the most valuable in real estate so if anything, you'd put the condos on the bottom, but then the less valuable low rise, no-view condos and their owners hardly enhance the curb appeal of a would be World HQ for some insurance company or whatever.

I think the clearest evidence that office/residential aren't compatible is the fact that office builders and residential builders self segregate. There are office developers and there are residential developers, and for the most part the two don't cross over. The two industries seem similar, because they both involve building tall structures, but they really are not much alike. A good office developer is likely not going to do a very good job at the residential portion. And since there is really no benefit to mixing uses in the CBD (again from the perspective of the developer) why would he jeopardize the project for something that adds zero value? Why would his lender let him?

Where mixed use has its place is in TOD around suburban downtowns and city neighborhoods. To me, that's where this model really works. Not so much for the CBD.
     
     
  #752  
Old Posted May 3, 2007, 2:31 PM
i_am_hydrogen i_am_hydrogen is offline
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Thanks for the pics, Chicago3rd. Too bad MoMo hasn't gone anywhere in almost two months. Apparently, there's some dispute over the glass that's holding up the cladding process.

Picture by ChivDevil from March 17:
     
     
  #753  
Old Posted May 3, 2007, 4:12 PM
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Thanks for the pics, Chicago3rd. Too bad MoMo hasn't gone anywhere in almost two months. Apparently, there's some dispute over the glass that's holding up the cladding process.
Maybe that dispute is over the poor quality of the glass they're using. I'm hoping for complete replacement.
     
     
  #754  
Old Posted May 3, 2007, 4:24 PM
i_am_hydrogen i_am_hydrogen is offline
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It seems that's the case:

Quote:
Originally Posted by xxxx View Post
Here's the scoop on the windows. Bill Smith (Smithfield) (through a broker) purchased the windows from China. The glazing contractor, responsible for installation only, on site has submitted numerous 'change orders' because of the dubious quality of the windows, and the re-work involved. (I had the same problems with Chinese windows at the Optima job in Skokie) Smith thought these charges were unwarranted. He automatically thinks ANY backcharges are unwarranted. My experience with him at Erie on the Park, Kingsbury on the Park and Nordstom Rack/Walgreen's at State and Washington bear that out. So, depending on who you hear it from, the glazing contractor walked off - tired of Smith's s**t, or Smith threw them off. Either way, it is best to cut your losses and GO when dealing with him.
     
     
  #755  
Old Posted May 3, 2007, 7:12 PM
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VivaLFuego VivaLFuego is offline
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It seems that's the case:

Interesting that someone in the business of large construction projects is so averse to change orders. I mean obviously you have to be wary that you're not getting screwed, but come on, it's part of the business...
     
     
  #756  
Old Posted May 3, 2007, 7:52 PM
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MoMo

Marcu ......YOU SAID IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! what a complete let down!!!!!!!!!!! Replacement is right!! Such an awsome and sleek building, but that glass deters from any kind of appreciation of the architecture! Walk over to the helmut jahn building and then place a new order for better glass!!!! what a shame!
     
     
  #757  
Old Posted May 3, 2007, 7:55 PM
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Maybe that dispute is over the poor quality of the glass they're using. I'm hoping for complete replacement.
Oh...you're saying the glass has no life
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  #758  
Old Posted May 3, 2007, 8:10 PM
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When will the renovation of the blackstone hotel be completed?
     
     
  #759  
Old Posted May 3, 2007, 9:52 PM
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http://www.aiachicago.org/events.asp#1628

USX South Works Redevelopment

Wednesday, May 9, 12:00 pm- 1:00 pm

The 118-acre former South Works steel mill on Chicago’s Southeast Side covers an area larger than the Loop. A mixed-use redevelopment would make this one of the City’s largest projects in years. Phil Enquist, FAIA, Skidmore, Owings & Merrill, will present a fascinating overview of planning for this site.

This event is sponsored by Regional & Urban Design KC

Learning units: 1.0 LU/HSW

Location: AIA Chicago, 35 East Wacker Drive, Suite 250

Member price: 0 Non-member price: $15.00
     
     
  #760  
Old Posted May 3, 2007, 10:41 PM
Kngkyle Kngkyle is offline
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Originally Posted by spyguy View Post
http://www.aiachicago.org/events.asp#1628

USX South Works Redevelopment

Wednesday, May 9, 12:00 pm- 1:00 pm

The 118-acre former South Works steel mill on Chicago’s Southeast Side covers an area larger than the Loop. A mixed-use redevelopment would make this one of the City’s largest projects in years. Phil Enquist, FAIA, Skidmore, Owings & Merrill, will present a fascinating overview of planning for this site.

This event is sponsored by Regional & Urban Design KC

Learning units: 1.0 LU/HSW

Location: AIA Chicago, 35 East Wacker Drive, Suite 250

Member price: 0 Non-member price: $15.00
This will be interesting. I am not too familiar with Chicago outside of the immediate downtown, can someone get a aerial shot of this 118 acres. How far is it from downtown? Any chance for some high rises?

Last edited by Kngkyle; May 3, 2007 at 10:49 PM.
     
     
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