Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[mr.x]

have they ever thought about maybe the Line has too many stations?

[smasher000]

who gives a rat's ass what the tri-cities want. i dont get why they dont want the skytrain. i think they're really stupid.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by Lee_Haber8

Actually the Evergreen Line had signal priority at all intersections except at Barnet and Pinetree where the line is now going underground.

And Como lake. Infact the only major intersections along its route that have signal priority are Lougheed and Pinetree(the busiest intersection in the tri-cities and I believe Austin(though i could be wrong on that). This line is not rapid transit when it takes 24min from Coquitlam center to Lougheed mall. Now skytrain which would of taken 14min is rapid transit or lrt down lougheed highway which would of taken 14-15min(though it would of missed alot of the population centers) thats rapid transit These times would be now around a 80%+ increase in speed, thats insane when you think of the small difference in price. This is nothing more than a street car line, a bus on rails for billion dollars. A giant waste of money and something tells me this lrt project will get scraped. If Falcon has his way and actual transportation planers have real imput on this project then I can gurantee you that it would not go through. There are areas in the lower mainland that can get by with lrt as rapid transit but this is not one of them.

[Rusty Gull]

I think the SSP community is coming to a consensus on this one: scrap the Evergreen Line, and go back to the drawing board. If the Tri-Cities isn't prepared for Skytrain, then take that money and put it where it is sorely needed: into a Skytrain line extending down Broadway to UBC.

The university is the single-largest employer in the province of B.C., and one of the most critical focal points for the Translink system. Additionally, West Broadway lays claim to some of the top employers in the City of Vancouver: Vancouver General Hospital (and its surrounding "health care/research district"), Vancouver City Hall, and a myriad of small and medium sized businesses stretching west to Arbutus.

We are also seeing significant residential densification of this corridor along stretches near Cambie, Granville, Burrard-Kits, Point Grey and again, UBC.

[agrant]

Also, I'd imagine the Canada Line will add a little more to the bus travel congestion, especially at the Broadway/Cambie intersection.

[Lee_Haber8]

Originally Posted by cornholio

And Como lake. Infact the only major intersections along its route that have signal priority are Lougheed and Pinetree(the busiest intersection in the tri-cities and I believe Austin(though i could be wrong on that). This line is not rapid transit when it takes 24min from Coquitlam center to Lougheed mall. Now skytrain which would of taken 14min is rapid transit or lrt down lougheed highway which would of taken 14-15min(though it would of missed alot of the population centers) thats rapid transit These times would be now around a 80%+ increase in speed, thats insane when you think of the small difference in price. This is nothing more than a street car line, a bus on rails for billion dollars. A giant waste of money and something tells me this lrt project will get scraped. If Falcon has his way and actual transportation planers have real imput on this project then I can gurantee you that it would not go through. There are areas in the lower mainland that can get by with lrt as rapid transit but this is not one of them.

Has anyone talked to Translink about the signal priority? I looked at their posters and even though it was something vague I'm pretty sure all the traffic lights mean signal priority. I could be wrong though

[fever]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gull

I think the SSP community is coming to a consensus on this one: scrap the Evergreen Line, and go back to the drawing board. If the Tri-Cities isn't prepared for Skytrain, then take that money and put it where it is sorely needed: into a Skytrain line extending down Broadway to UBC.

The university is the single-largest employer in the province of B.C., and one of the most critical focal points for the Translink system. Additionally, West Broadway lays claim to some of the top employers in the City of Vancouver: Vancouver General Hospital (and its surrounding "health care/research district"), Vancouver City Hall, and a myriad of small and medium sized businesses stretching west to Arbutus.

We are also seeing significant residential densification of this corridor along stretches near Cambie, Granville, Burrard-Kits, Point Grey and again, UBC.

The extension to Coquitlam Centre is intended to facilitate greater population growth in the Tri-Cities. It isn't supposed to be just a B-Line replacement. It's also supposed to shape growth in an area that is prepared to accept it. Signal priority for buses won't do that. I'm not entirely convinced that lrt would either, especially with the Evergreen line lacking signal priority where it matters most. I think the line needs to be built, but it has to have signal priority or grade-separation at each intersection. It can be lrt or skytrain.

I think there is a place for streetcars and at-grade rail in Greater Vancouver. At this stage, rapid transit is being built to connect regional town centres, and the lines need to be as fast and reliable as possible. Vancouver should begin to explore an lrt/streetcar network. Some other cities also have suitable corridors. These systems are much less expensive in terms of $/km and the individual lines would only be a few kms long.

The MLine West should be extended to Granville and maybe Arbutus. The downtown peninsula has little land available and this is where the city should focus similar new development. From Broadway to 16th between Main and Granville. The area between Arbutus and UBC is populated with at least 100000 nimbys. I imagine Vancouver is not interested in threatening vast swaths of sacred single family zoning regulations. Maybe it is? Otherwise, it would be hard to justify the cost of a subway through a 5 km wide stretch where little to no development would result.

[Jared]

Originally Posted by fever

Otherwise, it would be hard to justify the cost of a subway through a 5 km wide stretch where little to no development would result.

Broadway around Arbutus/McDonald area does have its fair share of 4-5 story apartments (i.e right to the East of Kits community centre).

I think the SkyTrain to UBC will eventually get rammed down their throats (i.e too much demand for Translink/Province/COV to pretend its unnessecary), but the NIMBYs would force it to be tunneled. I'm curious how much extra the tunnel would cost (vs. elevated), compared to the drop in house value in areas near the line (and hence lower property taxes for the city) if the line was elevated.


Vancovuer may also eventually merge with some of the inner suburbs, which would have the effect of greatly reducing the West Side's power in decision making.

[fever]

Eventually maybe it might. It might also be like East Van skytrain stations.

Arbutus does have a good collection of low/midrises. Closer to MacDonald they are only right along Broadway. I think that would have to change. I don't think they necessarily need highrises either.

[Jared]

Originally Posted by fever

I think there is a place for streetcars and at-grade rail in Greater Vancouver. At this stage, rapid transit is being built to connect regional town centres, and the lines need to be as fast and reliable as possible. Vancouver should begin to explore an lrt/streetcar network. Some other cities also have suitable corridors. These systems are much less expensive in terms of $/km and the individual lines would only be a few kms long.

Exactly, I'd love to see some LRT/Streetcar corridors, but I dont think that the Evergreen/Tricities Line should be one of them. Given how much is planned to grow, I consider this to be a primary corridor, worthy of higher order transit. However, I would love to see something along Arbutus corridor (theres a cluster of towers at Arbutus and 41st), Kingsway (its really densifying nicely), 41st, Hastings (this could go right through to the Heights, in Burnaby). Burnaby might also want to consider one from Hastings, past Brentwood, to Metrotown along Willingdon. It would hit a number of trip generators, and Burnaby seems to have less issues with rezoning. I'm not terribly familiar with North Van City, Richmond, or New West, but maybe these three could also consider something (though NW and NVC are kinda hilly!)

[Jared]

Originally Posted by agrant

Also, I'd imagine the Canada Line will add a little more to the bus travel congestion, especially at the Broadway/Cambie intersection.

Maybe.

There is an express bus from Richmond to UBC, so hopefully Richmonders going to UBC will stick with that. Also, for people living in South Van near Cambie, the 43 (express along 41st) would likely still be faster. However, people living in Richmond/South Van who work on the Broadway corridor may decide to take transit instead of driving, which could push the numbers up a bit.

[fever]

North Van City could use an initial line up Lonsdale. It would be 2 or 3 km long and cover an old streetcar route. The City actually did a study on it. It would go up an extremely steep hill. New West is very similar in layout to North Van.

I think systems along Willingdon and Arbutus would need to be more like a B-Line/lrt than streetcar in station spacing

[nname]

Originally Posted by Lee_Haber8

Has anyone talked to Translink about the signal priority? I looked at their posters and even though it was something vague I'm pretty sure all the traffic lights mean signal priority. I could be wrong though

It is clearly stated in page 28 of this document

There are four intersections where the light rail vehicles are presently not given any priority based on the level of design work undertaken to date. These intersections are Clarke/Como, St. Johns/Barnet/Albert, St. Johns/Dewdney and St. Johns/Ioco/Barnet.

Well... thing may change, but at least that's what they have right now.

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by fever

The extension to Coquitlam Centre is intended to facilitate greater population growth in the Tri-Cities. It isn't supposed to be just a B-Line replacement. It's also supposed to shape growth in an area that is prepared to accept it. Signal priority for buses won't do that. I'm not entirely convinced that lrt would either, especially with the Evergreen line lacking signal priority where it matters most. I think the line needs to be built, but it has to have signal priority or grade-separation at each intersection. It can be lrt or skytrain.

I think there is a place for streetcars and at-grade rail in Greater Vancouver. At this stage, rapid transit is being built to connect regional town centres, and the lines need to be as fast and reliable as possible. Vancouver should begin to explore an lrt/streetcar network. Some other cities also have suitable corridors. These systems are much less expensive in terms of $/km and the individual lines would only be a few kms long.

The MLine West should be extended to Granville and maybe Arbutus. The downtown peninsula has little land available and this is where the city should focus similar new development. From Broadway to 16th between Main and Granville. The area between Arbutus and UBC is populated with at least 100000 nimbys. I imagine Vancouver is not interested in threatening vast swaths of sacred single family zoning regulations. Maybe it is? Otherwise, it would be hard to justify the cost of a subway through a 5 km wide stretch where little to no development would result.

Even if Evergreen Line has ALL signal priority lights at all intersections, it'll NEVER beat Skytrain or any other grade-separated rapid transit systems, because it'll be completely restricted in terms of travelling speed due to the max speed on city roads. I think that rapid transit is most effective and only effective if the line is completely SEPARATE from any traffic (which includes at-grade, but should not share the road with any other traffic, even though if it has its own ROW in the middle of the road like St. Johns, but still, you have to cross intersections, and that's not completely separated from car traffic).

Fast and efficient rail lines like Skytrain/other subways provides the backbone/foundation of a city's effective rapid transit system, and speed and efficiency, NOT aesthetics, provide the effectiveness of it. Streetcars (which includes the Evergreen Line) should be secondary and provides the link and subject to primary rapid transit lines.

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by Jared

Exactly, I'd love to see some LRT/Streetcar corridors, but I dont think that the Evergreen/Tricities Line should be one of them. Given how much is planned to grow, I consider this to be a primary corridor, worthy of higher order transit. However, I would love to see something along Arbutus corridor (theres a cluster of towers at Arbutus and 41st), Kingsway (its really densifying nicely), 41st, Hastings (this could go right through to the Heights, in Burnaby). Burnaby might also want to consider one from Hastings, past Brentwood, to Metrotown along Willingdon. It would hit a number of trip generators, and Burnaby seems to have less issues with rezoning. I'm not terribly familiar with North Van City, Richmond, or New West, but maybe these three could also consider something (though NW and NVC are kinda hilly!)

For Richmond, the only possible other possible rail line is a LRT/street car type line down Railway to West Steveston area (since it's a huge tourist attraction there). But then the line has to go through the Oval area (where the old rail line goes through) and that's being torn down to divert the old River Rd and I don't know how it'll connect to Vancouver (via Arbutus).

Few things that Richmond SORELY needs are:
1) more cross-town (the ones that go E-W) based bus lines that may or may not go through Richmond Centre. The ones that go through Blundell or Francis (no public transit access at all there) and through the new developing Waterfront area near the oval are the ones in my mind now
2) more efficient public transit to industrial areas in the NE (Knight/Bridgeport area). That area is always jammed packed with traffic going back to Van. Perhaps the 22 bus can be extended to that area for Vancouverites who work in that area without having to change to 405/407?

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by Jared

Maybe.

There is an express bus from Richmond to UBC, so hopefully Richmonders going to UBC will stick with that. Also, for people living in South Van near Cambie, the 43 (express along 41st) would likely still be faster. However, people living in Richmond/South Van who work on the Broadway corridor may decide to take transit instead of driving, which could push the numbers up a bit.

I've heard there'll be 3 bus lines directly from Richmond to UBC once Canada Line opens: the 480, one from Garry Point/W. Steveston, via Railway, Gilbert, Airport, and another with terminus at Bridgeport Station.

It's hard to say. Canada Line probably only takes 15-18min to Broadway-City Hall, and then 99B west to UBC will probably take no more than 20-25min (43min total). It'll be even faster if M-Line is extended to UBC. Right now, the 480 from Richmond Centre to UBC takes around 45min without traffic. IMO, I think the Canada Line might be a good comfortable alternative to UBC instead of 480 series in the near future.

[fever]

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

Even if Evergreen Line has ALL signal priority lights at all intersections, it'll NEVER beat Skytrain or any other grade-separated rapid transit systems, because it'll be completely restricted in terms of travelling speed due to the max speed on city roads. I think that rapid transit is most effective and only effective if the line is completely SEPARATE from any traffic (which includes at-grade, but should not share the road with any other traffic, even though if it has its own ROW in the middle of the road like St. Johns, but still, you have to cross intersections, and that's not completely separated from car traffic).

Fast and efficient rail lines like Skytrain/other subways provides the backbone/foundation of a city's effective rapid transit system, and speed and efficiency, NOT aesthetics, provide the effectiveness of it. Streetcars (which includes the Evergreen Line) should be secondary and provides the link and subject to primary rapid transit lines.

What about Calgary-style signal priority? What's the average speed there? Cut out a few stations and there's not much difference. I'd prefer skytrain, anyway.

A Steveston lrt wouldn't need to go to Vancouver. It would likely be a Steveston-Richmond Centre connection. Arbutus could be separate. These lines, as I see them, would connect a centre and its rapid transit station to its peripheral neighbourhoods. They are short and relatively inexpensive.

[cornholio]

I could see LRT along the highway, I could see LRT in parts of the GVRD that are flat and with a grid patern street system. That means i could see LRT down King George to White Rock, maybe down 104th, along Lougheed highway from Braid all the way to Maple Ridge and Pitt Meadows, in Richmond, maybe along Marine drive from 22st station to Marine station, maybe down Wilingdon from Metrotown to Brentwood to Hastings st, even the curent Milenium line could of functioned as a LRT though its western extension could not(which would eliminate again most of the cost savings...the only real benefit of LRT...and having multiple transfers along one line from one technology to another is not exactly a good option) . In all these places grade seperated skytrain technology is still beter and usually faster but its also alot more expensive compared to the small increase in speed and efficiency. But the Evergreen line going through Port Moody should not be LRT becuase the price difference is alsmot eliminated because of the 2+km tunnel required, infact the tunnel is longer with the LRT option because LRT needs a lower grade, not to mention the fact that the roads it goes down are almost all important routes for traffic but the roads are not wide and straight and there are tons of intersection along most of the route which complicates things such as signal priority and speed. Basicly the route is not like a King George Highway or a Lougheed Highway etc. streets that are straight wide and with not that many intersections. Basicly along its route it will end up being more like a street car then rapid transit and I dont see how they can change that with out either spending even more money or significantly compromising traffic flow which will not sit well with many people as that is one of the few conections from the NE to north Burnaby, Vancouver etc, except going down to highway 1. Personaly i never understood how they ever decided to use LRT in the NE along the north corridor, its just stupid.

[SpongeG]

i could envision the arbutus corridor going to 22nd street station - run it along the tracks or same area that there are tracks now along the fraser river

[Mininari]

Last post here was April 15th...

Who thinks the Evergreen Line is now past the "point of no return"
i.e. No one will budge on the financing issue, and the project will remain in limbo for a while until eventually joining its earlier skytrain predecessors: A cancelled pipedream.

It seems that this line is living up to my earlier name for it...
"The Forbidden Line."

"Thou Shalt NOT build thy rapid transit line to the cities three..."

My suggestion:
Use the money thats available to build a cheaper line along the Lougheed Corridor... heck, work it a right-of-way into the crazy new Cape Horn Interchange Design, and get the damned trains running to Coquitlam Station. Then, continue to run the 97 service, but perhaps trim the service back to 15 minutes and use regular buses. Wouldn't this work? I mean, there still has to be SOME sort of bus service that would service Glenayre regardless of the route choice... I know that the LRT system is supposed to result in Translink being able to transfer most of the existing buses on the 97 route to other routes so: discontinue the 169 and 158 routes. They will be redunant with LRT service along Lougheed.

The #1 thing that bugs me about the Evergreen Line, as proposed, is that it offers no time-savings over the existing 97B service. Whats 3 minutes time savings? Its bad enough that the LRT adds an extra transfer, instead of a seamless ride along the M-line that Skytrain would offer. Throw in the facts that LRT offers little time savings over the current bus service, AND it requires multiple operators (earning 45K/year), AND its going to get screwed by traffic accidents and traffic lights?

If the #1 goal is to extend rapid transit to the Tri-cities, then build a system that provides FAST service to coquitlam centre, the major hub of the tri-cities, then extend it east to serve poco. If Port Moody won't support skytrain, then let them ride the bus. I think that the tunnel that the North route requires is only justified by Skytrain... the cost of the tunnel does NOT justify the crappy service time, or the extra transfer required by an LRT system.

The current proposal for Evergreen locates a station too far to the north of the Newport Area to really be convenient to Port Moody Centre residents anyway. Plus, theres not much room to develop there: the surrounding area is too constrained by topography and the CPR rail line. Nevermind the fact the majority of North Shore and Ioco Residents will continue to drive given the number of transfers they have to make to get anywhere by transit

(especially Trasolini in his *cute* little sports car).

Sorry to rant again... ranting about this line is getting old, but dammit... its fun.