North America's "most unique" Costco opens in Vancouver

[Kilgore Trout]

oh, and incidentally, i think mike is mistaken. the opening of this costco can only be good for downtown vancouver because, realistically, the alterative would have been a traditional big box costco in some industrial area near downtown. the negative effects on downtown business would have been the same but you wouldn't have had any of the positives, like green design, mixed use or walkability.

also, those small grocery stores that specialize in fresh fruits, vegetables, cheeses and such have absolutely nothing to do with corner stores --- their whole aim is to provide a very specific, high-quality product (fresh food) at lower prices than the typical supermarket or big box store. they will survive whether costco opens or not. i can walk down the street to one of my local greengrocers and get organic bananas for 29 cents a pound. not only does that beat the two giant supermarkets that bookend my neighbourhood, those two supermarkets (loblaws and provigo) really have no interest in undercutting the neighbourhood greengrocer because fruit and veg doesn't make them any money in the first place.

[mhays]

I wonder what sort of square footage you Costco lovers have at home. As a downtown resident, I'd hate to fill up my small place with 24 packs of toilet paper, and I'm certainly not buying a second fridge. And if I decide to pay for another 200 square feet it won't be to save a dollar a pound.

The Costco concept also assumes you have a car. I've actually been asked whether I shouldn't buy a car, "at least so I can shop at Costco". Hysterical! Pay many thousands per year just so I can save a much smaller amount. I'll take my corner store, Pike Place Market, and occasional walks to Whole Foods or Metropolitan Market.

That said, I'm not against downtowns having big-box stores or even Costcos. While they may take some market share away from corner stores, traditional supermarkets, public markets, and locally-based larger stores, they can also help downtowns retain shoppers who would otherwise go elsewhere, including downtown workers, and people drawn from neighborhoods miles away.

Actually I'm looking foward to a big-box mixed-use development planned on the far southeast edge of Downtown Seattle, on the current Goodwill site at Dearborn & Rainier. It will apparently get a Target and Lowe's as well as a new Goodwill, other stores, community space, and 500 housing units. This would draw huge numbers of people from the underserved Rainier Valley, and the Target would sell things Downtown is weak on. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003463829_goodwill06m.html

[miketoronto]

As far as I am concerned, our cities are to nice to big box stores like Costco.

We need some good Italian planning bylaws in our inner cities, which ban big box stores.

Italy made the decision to support their local economies and local business, and the ban on COSTCO style stores shows that.

Just think how unique and great downtown Vancouver would be if you walk out your condo and have huge neighbourhood markets everywhere, instead of COSTCO'S that look like the suburbs once your inside.

I think our cities now have to face the challenge on if we are going to suburbanize our downtowns, or protect what made our downtowns destinations in the first place.

Allowing Costco is just another step of turning downtown into a bland suburb with some high-rises.

[Policy Wonk]

Mike, would you like us to take up a collection to get you a ticket back to the 18th Century?

This little drama already played out in Burlington Vermont when hipsters sucessfully kept a large grocery store from being built in downtown Burlington in order to protect this... http://www.citymarket.coop/

There was damn near a violent revolution...

[miketoronto]

We have to protect our cities and promote what makes them special.

COSTCO does not make them special.

If people want COSTCO go to the burbs.

I see no need to turn our cities into suburbs.
We can do better then that, and must demand better or the North American city is doomed to ever be more then a vertical suburb.

I guess if you are the person that is into prepared meals and not actually cooking, then COSTCO is something great. But my family does not do that. We eat fresh veggies, fish, meat. My parents go like everyday to buy food.
So I don't need a COSTCO to stock up.

[Policy Wonk]

just out of curiosity... how old are you?

[fflint]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

also, those small grocery stores that specialize in fresh fruits, vegetables, cheeses and such have absolutely nothing to do with corner stores --- their whole aim is to provide a very specific, high-quality product (fresh food) at lower prices than the typical supermarket or big box store.

It's very frustrating to read that premise repeatedly, and to consistently challenge it, to no avail. That may very well be the case in Montreal and Toronto, but that is not a universal truth. It is simply divorced from the reality of where I live.

Where I live, ordinary produce markets, small independent grocers, and corner stores charge notoriously high prices--much, much higher than Safeway or Costco--for emphatically inferior merchandise. If one wants better quality produce than is available at Safeway or Costco, the gourmet-foodie markets aim to please--at truly astronomical prices. Nowhere--not even the farmer's markets--will sell better merchandise at a lower price than the supermarkets and Costco here where I live.

[arbeiter]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

If I live downtown, I want to be in a "real" downtown, with the fresh farmer markets, etc. Not a COSTCO.

Well you live in a suburb with your mom and dad, so shut up already

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by fflint

It's very frustrating to read that premise repeatedly, and to consistently challenge it, to no avail. That may very well be the case in Montreal and Toronto, but that is not a universal truth. It is simply divorced from the reality of where I live.

And why is that fflint????? Why does your city not have neighbourhood food markets with great produce and good prices? Its because your city has allowed the chains to kill off that natural organic part of the city.

How do you think people decades ago shopped with less money then we have now? They went to local markets. My dad tells me all the times of the deals you would get at the neighbourhood market when he first moved to Toronto.

The problem is we are killing off the neighbourhood strips with these big stores.

How are we ever go get that kind of urbanism back or dynamic, if we just keep building COSTCO'S?

[fflint]

Mike, you are displaying your reckless ignorance of San Francisco again. Stick with what you know.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by arbeiter

Well you live in a suburb with your mom and dad, so shut up already

My family supports the local guy though, and the downtown markets. I happen to buy a number of food items at the downtown markets. For many years, my parents made weekly trips downtown to the markets.

Even today they still go to the owner run stores for some things, and the food markets for others.

So I know all about supporting the local guy

[vid]

Yes but some of us can't support the local guy's markup.

Vanderwees is a local egg company. They're on the edge of town, and they makes packs of eggs, one size has 18 eggs! Wow! That sure is a lot of eggs!

The prices are as follows:

Walmart: 2.89
Safeway and A&P: 3.18
Quality Market (Locally owned): 3.39
Mac's: 3.69
Hutch's Variety (Locally Owned): 3.99

Now, where would you go?

BTW - Hutch's is only in business because of the kitchen. Best jalapeño cheddar burgers in town! rool: They should make it more of a restaurant than corner store. They really should. It can't compete with the Mac's a block away and this neighbourhood is really hurting for a decent fast food place.

[vanman]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

As far as I am concerned, our cities are to nice to big box stores like Costco.

We need some good Italian planning bylaws in our inner cities, which ban big box stores.

Italy made the decision to support their local economies and local business, and the ban on COSTCO style stores shows that.

Just think how unique and great downtown Vancouver would be if you walk out your condo and have huge neighbourhood markets everywhere, instead of COSTCO'S that look like the suburbs once your inside.

I think our cities now have to face the challenge on if we are going to suburbanize our downtowns, or protect what made our downtowns destinations in the first place.

Allowing Costco is just another step of turning downtown into a bland suburb with some high-rises.

What your missing Mike is the fact that downtown Vancouver is very vibrant, with more retail per capita then many NA cities . Granville Island is renowned for it's diverse marketplace and atmosphere and it is less than a five minute ferry ride from this area. So it is not like a Costco opening up is going to change any of that.

The city's main reason for allowing the downtown Costco was not only to keep downtown residents from leaving downtown for their day to day needs, but to keep the thousands of trips per day that downtown businesses would otherwise make into the suburbs in downtown. And of course there are no 'mom and pop' office products suppliers downtown or anywhere for that matter so IMO having this development so close to the business core is a very good thing. And besides it;s not like this costco is freestanding with acres of surface parking in the middle of a prime location: that would be a travesty.

[plinko]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

We need some good Italian planning bylaws in our inner cities, which ban big box stores.

Italy made the decision to support their local economies and local business, and the ban on COSTCO style stores shows that.

We should ban department stores too then. Since they put the squeeze on local tailors, shoe stores, hat stores, and boutique clothing stores... If the city dwellers want their Macy's...well they can just go to the suburbs!

If this store was on a stand-alone block all by itself and interrupted some wonderful pedestrian fabric? By all means...don't build it!

But I'd really like to know...what other land use suits this particular site and also generates the needed revenue for both the developers and the city?

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by fflint

It's very frustrating to read that premise repeatedly, and to consistently challenge it, to no avail. That may very well be the case in Montreal and Toronto, but that is not a universal truth. It is simply divorced from the reality of where I live.

Where I live, ordinary produce markets, small independent grocers, and corner stores charge notoriously high prices--much, much higher than Safeway or Costco--for emphatically inferior merchandise. If one wants better quality produce than is available at Safeway or Costco, the gourmet-foodie markets aim to please--at truly astronomical prices. Nowhere--not even the farmer's markets--will sell better merchandise at a lower price than the supermarkets and Costco here where I live.

yes, but let's be fair: this is a thread about costco in vancouver and i was speaking within the canadian context. in montreal, toronto and vancouver i can certainly confirm that small greengrocers have lower prices and higher quality product than large supermarkets.

but, out of curiosity, why is this not the case in so many american cities? of all places, i would have imagined that san francisco would have an abundance of cheap, high-quality produce. it's in california! since i really don't have any grocery-buying experience south of the border, i hope you can shed some light on this. i've heard chicago has a similar dearth of affordable produce alternatives.

[fflint]

Right, but to be equally fair, as often happens on the forum, the conversation drifted from its strictly Canadian context, and Mike engaged me on the San Francisco context explicitly.

As for an abundance of cheap produce in California, that's true in general--lots of fresh, good quality and affordable fruit and vegetables (and a great selection) at the supermarkets to be sure--but not at the small markets here in SF. Other cities may differ, I cannot say how prices and quality are in small markets in San Diego, let alone a city like New York. And it was this way, I should add, years before Costco showed up in the city. I just ate lower-quality food.

[J. Will]

"in montreal, toronto and vancouver i can certainly confirm that small greengrocers have lower prices and higher quality product than large supermarkets"

That's true for the most part. It's probably because of competition. Downtown Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver each have dozens and dozens of smaller grocery stores competing with each other. If any of them had high prices or low quality, no one would shop there.

[miketoronto]

The reason we still have great food markets along our inner city strips, is because we have been able to maintain the "real" city lifestyle.

Other cities no longer have this, because they have sold out to the chain stores and COSTCO'S.

Downtown Living is not COSTCO.

[vanman]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

The reason we still have great food markets along our inner city strips, is because we have been able to maintain the "real" city lifestyle.

Other cities no longer have this, because they have sold out to the chain stores and COSTCO'S.

Downtown Living is not COSTCO.

You are out to lunch

[fishy]

Buying from the mom and pops shop does NOT define a "real" city lifestyle. Costco offers everything under one roof which is why people choose to shop there even with a membership fee. They pay for convenience and lower prices and who exactly has the time nowadays to do all their shoppings from store to store? If people want to experience that "real" lifestyle which you like to seek, they can go to the suburbs.