New Arena for Downtown Edmonton

[Hootch]

Again, those numbers come from a period when the Oilers were under constant threats of relocation. Not to mention they were the worst team in the league as a result of inept management. Considering the circumstances, I doubt the Oilers will ever average 13,000 fans again. That is an erroneous argument.

Stupid Flames fans.

[krazycanuck]

Calling them the worst team in the league during that time is a bit of a stretch...

But anyways, you misinterprited my point. I'm not saying that the Oilers attendance is going to nosedive if they move into a massive building...what I am saying is that if circumstances do come to pass where small crowds become the norm (like they have in the past)is a 21,000 seat arena still going to be attractive?

Absolutely it would be nice to have during the playoffs or when the team is flying and the Oilers are the hottest ticket in town.

However...what about when they miss the playoffs a few years in a row? We both know that no team in the NHL (aside from the maple laughs) will sellout every single game regardless of how the team is playing. with an arena that big over the long term you'll see a lot more crowds far below capacity, than games sold out.

It's like having a 3 person family and buying a 7 bedroom house for when you have family come over 5 times a year. in short. 18,000 is sustainable and 21,000 is not.

[Hootch]

It's a stretch if you're a Flames fan in a losing argument. The Oilers missed the playoffs two out of three years from 2002-2004 and they were still the hottest ticket in town. In the highly unlikely event the mid-90's come back full circle, I guess they could make like the Saddlemorgue and cover the Sportchek Zone with tarps and claim a sellout is 17,000.

Don't question our loyalty and superior atmosphere either. Lest we forget game "I can hear a pin drop" 7?

[CorporateWhore]

man, hootch you're one bitter edmontonian. deep down I think you must really love the flames...

[krazycanuck]

Originally Posted by Hootch

It's a stretch if you're a Flames fan in a losing argument. The Oilers missed the playoffs two out of three years from 2002-2004 and they were still the hottest ticket in town. In the highly unlikely event the mid-90's come back full circle, I guess they could make like the Saddlemorgue and cover the Sportchek Zone with tarps and claim a sellout is 17,000.

Don't question our loyalty and superior atmosphere either. Lest we forget game "I can hear a pin drop" 7?

*yawn* well, your hottest ticket it town did not equal a sold out building night in and night out. So, if that's about as good as it gets. a good Edmonton crowd is 16,500 a night. Let's build a 21,000 seat arena for that. Good idea. Go talk to the marketing folks over with the blackhawks and see what their thoughts are on their arena.

ok, so right now, do you think the Oilers could fill 21,000 seats? honestly? and I don't mean for the Saturday night Vancouver or Calgary games. I'm talking, would 21,000 people pay money to go watch Columbus, Minnesota or the Panthers on a Wednesday night in the middle of January? doubt it. The idea of an arena that big is overkill and makes very little sense for the short term, and no sense for the longterm.

Even Oilers brass isn't going to screw around with somthing so big, so why are you even arguing that it's a good idea? NO NHL arena will be built in the next 20 years with a capacity above 20k.

Also, never question a Flames fan's loyalty. 7 years of no playoffs and an average attendance that never once dropped below 15,000 and now we're riding a 60 game streak of sellout crowds in a 19,289 seat building. Hell, last year the Oilers were the only Canadian team to NOT sellout every game, and ironically enough, they're the team who plays in the smallest barn.

So, enough of your nonsense hooch,I've read enough of your posts in the past and in this thread to see that not only do you have no clue about sports economics or accepted facts but you also seem to have an IQ similar to the Oilers stick boy.

[Arriviste]

Hootch is tool. I have not encountered one like him in a while.
I feel bad for you guys in E-town having a jackass like him repping you.
He needs an asterix on all his posts clearly stating that his opinions are not those expressed by the majority of Oilers fans, or Edmontonians. They are based on nonsensical jackassery and deep jealousy/resentment/inner sadness.

[Arriviste]

Oh, pwned by krazy! haha Hootch. You have zero credability. OJ Simpson has more.

[Riise]

Originally Posted by Hootch

It's a stretch if you're a Flames fan in a losing argument. The Oilers missed the playoffs two out of three years from 2002-2004 and they were still the hottest ticket in town. In the highly unlikely event the mid-90's come back full circle, I guess they could make like the Saddlemorgue and cover the Sportchek Zone with tarps and claim a sellout is 17,000.

Don't question our loyalty and superior atmosphere either. Lest we forget game "I can hear a pin drop" 7?

Holy Saint Nicholas buddy, I guess getting a sleigh full of tube socks has made you bitter and too much spiked egg nog has affected your ability to think straight. Krazy is not saying that you cannot fill a 21,000 seat arena because he knows that during the good times you will be able to sell out and during the mediocre times you will be able to sell 80%+. What he is bringing up is the point that during the very bad spells, which can last for a few years (3 seasons in the example above), the arena will be very empty and possibly a financial burden. You brought up the point that the dome tarped around 2,000 seats but that's arguably reasonable because it was only 10% of the total and brought the capacity of the dome into the mid-range league capacity. Bringing a 21,000 seat arena down to 17,000 would require tarping 20% of the seats while still having to pay, let's say 95%, of the arena cost.

Nobody is questioning the loyalty of Oiler fans just the feasibility of them having a 21,000+ seat arena. Just because people from Calgary are saying that the Oilers cannot do something doesn't mean that the "Flamers" are attacking, maybe we are giving you an intelligent and unbiased opinion that shows that you guys cannot do one thing. It's not like he said Smyth is an untalented hillbilly and the Oilers will place last this year.

[SHOFEAR]

/\ To be fair, I'm pretty sure the only game that wasn't sold out last year was a game against San Jose that was on the tail end of the oilers seven game or so losing streak in nov/oct.

I wouldn't expect to see a return to the 13 000 years of the mid 90's, like hootch said there were some pretty unusual circumstances. But I'm also not expecting the same type of demand we see now for the life of a new arena. Building anything over 19 000 is crazy.

[CMD UW]

Overall capacity is fine, but I think one has to examine the profit margins between general seating and corporate suites. I am willing to bet that the margin on corporate suites is much higher than your general seating. I think 18,000 with at least x3 more suites is suffice in this market.

[feepa]

TV Rights Sales and Luxury Boxes is where the money is at. Other seating, parking, food and beverages are a second.

[freeweed]

I think the profit issue is more important than the sellout issue. No one in their right mind would argue that the Flames couldn't sell out a 20k+ building, every game, right now. Ticketmaster's website regularly crashes when the Flames release even a few extra tickets, because literally thousands of people are vying for a few dozen spare seats. Those of us on the email list know what it's like when we get the 10am email, and by 10:05 Ticketmaster is offline. And Calgary is only going to grow.

The problem is that these extra seats bring in next to no revenue, compared to luxury boxes. With moden arena construction techniques you *could* build say a 30,000 seat arena, all with good sightlines - but it wouldn't really bring in enough extra revenue to justify the cost of building them in the long run.

The biggest pisser is that with Flames tickets pretty much unavailable every game, a lot of fans are giving up trying - so when the lean years come, people aren't going to bother as they've just gotten used to never going. Sadly, hockey is more about making profits than ensuring that every fan who wants to, can see a game live. Well, sadly for the fan anyway - in theory in the long run this will still keep the teams financially viable, although we'll see just how that pans out.

Personally, a part of me would LOVE to live in an American city where you can get tickets to every game just by walking up. It's fun if it's sold out, yes, but I'm there more for the love of watching the game itself, and not for the "atmosphere" of a capacity house. I'm in the minority on this one I suspect.

Thankfully, I'm still able to see 20 or so games live each season thanks to a little secret that I'm not willing to share. Would be nice to be able to get season tickets, though...

[rapid_business]

Way off topic, but was the Pacific Center designed by the same architect as Rexall Place? very similar if my memory serves me right.

(And here is hopping I can get ANY pair of tickets 20 seconds after the next batch goes on sale in early January)

[Hootch]

Does anyone mind pointing out what I posted that was so bad? 'Cause it looks like I've yet again incurred the puny wrath of the Lames faithful. It's like someone ran a hillbilly through a Xerox machine! And so angry on Christmas? Tsk tsk. Start writing those letters now, folks!

Originally Posted by CorporateWhore

man, hootch you're one bitter edmontonian. deep down I think you must really love the flames...

Nice edit. What did it say first? Don't you post at calgarypuck? You know, the forum where you can find more Oilers topics than Flames topics? Just like how there are more Oil fans than Lames fans at the Saddlemorgue?

Originally Posted by Arriviste

Hootch is tool. I have not encountered one like him in a while.
I feel bad for you guys in E-town having a jackass like him repping you.
He needs an asterix on all his posts clearly stating that his opinions are not those expressed by the majority of Oilers fans, or Edmontonians. They are based on nonsensical jackassery and deep jealousy/resentment/inner sadness.

This is insane, coming from the calgarypuck crowd. I'll never forget when a poster there said he wanted Edmonton bombed to the ground and even said "There's nothing better than the smell of burnt Edmontonians in the morning" and that kind of behaviour is encouraged! That's some sick s***. And someone who posts at a forum like that has the gall to accuse my arguments of being "nonsensical jackassery"? What do you call the arguments from the Lames fans in this thread? "Inane dips***tery"?

Although I must admit that I do indeed feel deep jealously over the Flames vast array of Championships, resentment that it wasn't the Oilers who lost to Anaheim in 7 games, and inner sadness that it isn't the Oilers who have been past the first round exactly once since 1989. Gee, I wish that was us!

Originally Posted by Arriviste

Oh, pwned by krazy! haha Hootch. You have zero credability. OJ Simpson has more.

Do you hold it for him when he takes a piss too? A calgarypuck poster accusing anyone of having no cred is laughable. Anna Nicole Smith has more class than you guys. And "pwned"? I'm guessing you're a Flames fan, or a 40-year old virgin? Heh, like those two things aren't one & the same, huh?

And I'm hardly the grammar/spelling police, but don't you think you should use your spell checker before telling someone "U havv know credability!"?

Originally Posted by krazycanuck

*yawn* well, your hottest ticket it town did not equal a sold out building night in and night out. So, if that's about as good as it gets. a good Edmonton crowd is 16,500 a night. Let's build a 21,000 seat arena for that. Good idea. Go talk to the marketing folks over with the blackhawks and see what their thoughts are on their arena.

Hey, no need to get snarky because I revealed the inconsistencies in your arguments, which amount to "Because things were like this in a completely different hockey market, they will most certainly be that way in Edmonton". 16,500 is not "as good as it gets in Edmonton".

You're very quick to point out the lowest attendance for the Oilers (I outlined the circumstances that led to the low attendance and Lames fans chose to ignore it and attack me instead; typical Lames fans), but you never mentioned the 57,000+ Oil fans at the Heritage Classic, or that Northlands—when the population of Edmonton was little more than half what it is now—was selling out a 17,500 seat coliseum in the mid-80s. Never mind that the Oilers have been operating at 99.5% capacity for the past 5 seasons. If you're not to acknowledge that, then don't bother arguing. It's useless and a waste of time.

And newsflash: Edmonton and Chicago are two totally different markets. And by all accounts I've read, Wirtz is just as effective at keeping fans away as Pocklington was. Have you talked to their "marketing folks"? Do you even know that they televise next to no 'Hawks games? Instead of comparing Edmonton and Chicago because it suits your transparent argument, why not make a justifiable comparison like Edmonton and Montreal? Heck, even Montreal didn't sellout during non-playoff years, but I doubt they're regretting building Centre Bell to seat 21,273.

ok, so right now, do you think the Oilers could fill 21,000 seats? honestly?

Right now, easily. The Oilers interest is at an all-time high and not only is there a waiting list for tickets, but for company suites as well.

and I don't mean for the Saturday night Vancouver or Calgary games. I'm talking

Maybe to Calgarians the Oilers are the "Game of the Year/Must See!" type games, but hardly in Edmonton. The Canucks are just another team.

would 21,000 people pay money to go watch Columbus, Minnesota or the Panthers on a Wednesday night in the middle of January? doubt it.

I'll take your word for it even though the Oilers have sold out for those teams in the past.

The idea of an arena that big is overkill and makes very little sense for the short term, and no sense for the longterm.

Can you explain "how" without resorting to made-up facts and blanket statements? Keeping in mind that the Oilers are obviously not going to be the only tenant? Keeping in mind that I'm not saying they should build a 20,000+ seat arena, only that Oilers fans would fill it.

Also, never question a Flames fan's loyalty. 7 years of no playoffs and an average attendance that never once dropped below 15,000 and now we're riding a 60 game streak of sellout crowds in a 19,289 seat building. Hell, last year the Oilers were the only Canadian team to NOT sellout every game, and ironically enough, they're the team who plays in the smallest barn.

Wow! Congrats! They also never had to endure the circumstances Oiler fans did in the mid-90s. Are you going to keep ignoring that as long as it's convenient for you? And the Saddlemorgue was always half-full in those days more often than not. It was thanks to Oilers, Canucks, Habs, and Leafs fans helping sell the building out on the nights those teams came to town. And the one game the Oilers didn't sell out last season (vs. the Sharks and they were replacing the banners with new ones before the game), was due to a glitch in their computer system that didn't process the half-price singles.

Again you show your amusing tendency to open your uninformed trap before the knowing the facts. In 2004, the Calgary Flames, the year they made the finals, the season opener - against the Edmonton Oilers - only had 16,009 fans. Of course 10,000 of those were Oil fans but still. It was the year they made the finals, never mind it was the season opener after 7 non-playoff years! Circumstances don't matter; results do! This is how you argue, and it's laughable.

So, enough of your nonsense hooch,I've read enough of your posts in the past and in this thread to see that not only do you have no clue about sports economics or accepted facts but you also seem to have an IQ similar to the Oilers stick boy.

And I've read enough in the past from you and your ilk to paint all of you with a broad stroke of the same s***-based paint. And buddy, you ARE the Oilers stick boy. As a hockey city, Calgary eats Edmonton's dust.

All I was arguing is that Oil fans COULD sellout a 21,000 seat arena until krazycanuck and his "Nasty Bois" turned this into a fricking crusade.

[rapid_business]

wow... what is this, grade 5? That was the longest post on incoherant crap I've ever read on this forum. seriously, save this for the menial b*tching section at www.oilfansVSflamesfans.com .

The arena won't be 21,000. Plain and simple. 18,500-19k, probably. Let's get back on topic.

[Arriviste]

What the fuck is Calgarypuck? Thats what I'd like to know.
Way to make yourself look even more sad and ridiculous. A long rambling nonsensical posts is the most sure fire way to prove your idiocy/discomfort within yourself.

[feepa]

Originally Posted by Arriviste

What the fuck is Calgarypuck? Thats what I'd like to know.
Way to make yourself look even more sad and ridiculous. A long rambling nonsensical posts is the most sure fire way to prove your idiocy/discomfort within yourself.

well, its http://www.calgarypuck.com , Its a forum for people to discuss Flames Hockey, and Hockey in general, and alot of time, the team to the north. But that happens on www.oilfans.com too, just in reverse.

[Hootch]

Originally Posted by Arriviste

What the fuck is Calgarypuck? Thats what I'd like to know.
Way to make yourself look even more sad and ridiculous. A long rambling nonsensical posts is the most sure fire way to prove your idiocy/discomfort within yourself.

Resorting to potty language is a sure sign of a dull mind and slow wit.

Notice how you use personal attacks the moment you can't handle the debate? I do.

[CMD UW]

Ok, this is BS already folks....this will be shut down if this continues.

[itom 987]

We don't need arguements from other forums spilling into Skyscraperpage.