WINDSOR | Construction - News and Development

[arnold]

it'll be interesting to see what the casino expansion does for the neighbourhood retail scene. this addition should link the previous building with the downtown quite nicely.

after all, its not intended to be a fully self-contained affair like the vegas casinos, is it?..


BTW, is this the site that the gondola people wanted for the windsor mast?

[upinottawa]

^ Casino Windsor is pretty self-contained. Conference centres tend to be self-contained. I can't imagine why the expansion would be any different. That being said, the expansion should help to better tie the Casino to downtown.

Nice photos. Keep them coming.

[upinottawa]

$3.8B border tunnel tab
DRIC air study shows even with ventilation towers, some pollutants would increase

Dave Battagello, Windsor Star
Published: Thursday, December 07, 2006

A tunnel to the new border crossing would cost as much as $3.8 billion -- up to six times the price of a surface road -- and would do little to reduce pollution in Windsor, a binational commission said Wednesday.

Air quality studies performed by the Detroit River International Crossing (DRIC) team show some pollutants would increase if a tunnel is built and ventilation towers are used.

DRIC consists of provincial, state and federal government authorities. The group is assigned to determine a location for the next Windsor-Detroit border crossing, plazas and feeder roads.

The group released its latest information Wednesday at an open house at the Holiday Inn.

Among its other findings:

- The number of households to be displaced by access roads ranges from 125 to 220, depending on their alignment and location. The tunnel alternative generally results in fewer household displacements than the other alternatives.

- Between 25 and 45 businesses along Talbot Road-Huron Church Road will be displaced. Other remaining businesses will likely be disrupted through property infringement and/or by a reduction in traffic access or visibility.

- The displacement and disruption of commercial businesses in the Huron Church corridor will result in a loss of revenue of approximately $10 million and 100 jobs.

- Industrial economic impact near each of the potential locations of the crossings and plazas (in Sandwich or Brighton Beach) from displacement/dislocation could result in approximately 100 job losses and nearly $100 million in lost revenue.

- Any improvement to the speed and efficiency of goods and services crossing the border would have a tremendous impact on the economies of Ontario and the Windsor-Essex County region. There is expected to be greater opportunity for industrial and large-scale commercial development along Highway 401 east of Windsor.

- By 2035, international car and truck traffic through Windsor-Detroit is expected to grow, with afternoon peak hour truck traffic expected to more than double. If no new crossing is built, significant road capacity problems are expected to begin by 2015. Longer delays will be experienced, with travel times nearly doubling.

Dave Wake, the manager of the DRIC team, said he was surprised by the air quality findings, which also showed little impact on air quality in the Huron Church corridor from today's traffic volumes.

"The contribution from transportation is really small," said Wake. "I think people would find that hard to believe. I did -- but that's what the modelling is telling us. It's a well-respected model that's used for transportation projects.

"Improving technology, improved fuels and free flow of traffic in the future certainly presents a better picture than I might have expected."

The Toronto environmental engineer from SENES Consultants leading the air quality testing for DRIC cautioned the results presented are a work in progress.

"We are showing with a tunnel (Nitrogen oxide) emissions are higher over a broader area. But we are truly still doing the analysis. I would say wait for the final numbers to come out (in six months) and we make definite statements on what (option) is better in terms of air quality."

Residents of South Windsor and LaSalle have been demanding governments build a tunnel to bury the local truck traffic problems.

The extra costs for the tunnel were attributed by DRIC to excavation and concrete required to build the tunnel, plus ventilation, electrical, drainage, and emergency management.

Asked whether high projected costs will stop the federal and provincial governments from considering a border tunnel, Wake said: "We need to take a good long look at all this information and think about the cost-effectiveness of all the options."

An at-grade alternative between Highway 401 and Malden Road was listed by DRIC as costing $620 million to $920 million, with a depressed option at $1 billion to $1.4 billion.

"I don't doubt cost factor will be prominent and environmental will be well down on the list in terms of this proposal," said Derek Coronado of the Citizens Environment Alliance, a local advocacy group.

"In terms of environmental impacts -- not only in this area -- but anywhere across the province, they remain unconcerned," he said.

Gil Courish, who owns a home at the corner of Cabana Road and Huron Church, attended the DRIC open house. He said he prefers construction of a tunnel to handle border traffic.

"I deal with it every day," Courish said. "I understand the cost would be a lot greater, but you can't put a price on people's health.

"It should be done for the betterment of everybody and not just the cheapest way out."

Bridge construction costs are still being developed in collaboration with the U.S. team and not yet available.

© The Windsor Star 2006

[upinottawa]

Gord Henderson's response to the above:

Tunnelling worth it

Gord Henderson, Windsor Star
Published: Thursday, December 07, 2006

The game plan is obvious. Whack Windsorites between the eyes with a mind-boggling price tag and then stand back and watch as support for a world-class border solution melts like a snow cone on hot asphalt.

The $3.8-billion estimate for tunnelling six kilometres of the Huron Church Road corridor, disclosed Wednesday by the Detroit River International Crossing (DRIC) study team, is clearly intended to undermine this community's passionate commitment to a tunnelled truck route.

Rolled out in tandem with preliminary air pollution numbers compiled by consultants, which suggest tunnelling might actually worsen our air quality, and you've got a one-two punch meant to bring city residents to their knees.

Initially at least, it appeared to be working, with people attending the DRIC dog-and-pony show at the Holiday Inn Select -- quite the costly spectacle with its fruit and pastry trays and banks of giant flat-screen TVs -- shaking their heads and gasping in amazement that their preferred solution could cost more than paving Huron Church in gold.

No question about it. The DRIC's tunnel tag is astonishing. At $3.8 billion (in 2011 dollars) for six kilometres, it works out to something like $633,000 per metre. Or more than $16,000 per linear inch.

It makes one wonder. How did they arrive at that figure? Did they pump the numbers to produce terminal sticker shock? Did they have instructions from their political masters in Ottawa and Toronto to throw in everything but the kitchen sink and build the worst case scenario? If they were cautioning us last year that a tunnel could cost as much as $2 billion, how did it almost double?

LOUSY SOIL

Blame it on your lousy wet soil and a high water table, said one of the project engineers. He told me the soft, silty sand rules out boring a tunnel and makes a cut-and-cover tunnel a massive, time-consuming project. He described how caissons (steel I-beams filled with concrete) 1.5 to two metres in diameter would have to be pounded deep into the ground two to three metres apart for the whole length of the tunnel. And that's just one key step in building the tunnel's retaining walls.

I got the picture. Constructing a truck tunnel would be far more complex and labour-intensive than most of us civilians imagined.

I came away with another impression. These guys are tunnel virgins. Ontario might be yours to discover but it doesn't do highway tunnels. Officials had to think hard before citing three tunnels under the Welland Canal, the most recent built in the 1960s, as examples of road tunnelling in the province. They don't know the business. And I suspect they'd like to keep it that way.

It's a damn shame because there's a wealth of tunnelling expertise in Europe which could lead them by the hand and help them overcome their bashfulness about going underground.

Last spring I described how tiny Norway has built tunnels under mountains, fjords, and ocean seabeds to link small towns and remote islands with the mainland. Norway built the world's longest highway tunnel, the 24.5 km Laerdal Tunnel on the main road between Bergen and Oslo, at a cost of roughly C$220 million in the late 1990s. And they did this in the face of daunting problems involving unstable rock formations.

Meanwhile, Sweden and Denmark built a 15-kilometre tunnel, man-made island and bridge linking their countries across the Baltic Sea's Oresund Strait at a cost of US$3.7 billion. These are pros, people with vision and daring, and they should have been recruited early in this process.

If these countries can think big, with a fraction of the trade that passes between Canada and the U.S., how can we settle for a second or third-rate solution for the world's busiest and most lucrative border crossing?

It's outrageous that the DRIC even has an at-grade alternative on the table. That's 1950s thinking, with a $920 million price tag, and it speaks volumes about their contempt for Windsor that they would list it as an option.

What's Windsor's future worth? What's Canada's trade with the U.S. worth? Is it worth a $3.8 billion, one-time investment in a tunnel that, according to the engineers, would be built to last 75 to 100 years.

In 2106 will our descendants look back on us as risk-takers with foresight -- like the folks who built the existing bridge and tunnel -- or shortsighted fools like those who decided to end the 401 at Highway 3?

Don't be cowed by sticker shock. Windsor, Ontario and Canada deserve the best permanent solution, not a cheap way out.

[email protected]

© The Windsor Star 2006

[arnold]

as much as it grieves me to agree with gord henderson... i have to admit that i think he's absolutley correct in this case. there shouldn't ne a 'chaep-out' option here. they're setting up west-windsor for another century of the status quo instead of improving the area as a whole. this sort of cost-benefit construction is appalling when they're dealing with people's health and a community's well being.

that said, i still think that its insane that they're looking to put a crossing in town at all... the new crossing should be way downriver and out of town.

[Blitz]

^agreed

[westerntragedy]

^ wow, I'm finding myself agreeing with Gord Henderson too.. that's unusual!!

[upinottawa]

To his credit, Gord often stakes out a "pro-Windsor against the world" position on controversial files.

Although, what is he supposed to say? Let's cheap out and screw Windsor?

[upinottawa]

Mayor cries foul over tunnel cost

Dave Battagello, Star News Services
Published: Saturday, December 09, 2006

Mayor Eddie Francis has accused a binational commission of hiding potential impacts of a new border superhighway in Windsor while plotting to impose a cheap solution to fix this city's truck traffic problems.

"It makes your blood boil when you see how they are setting things up," Francis said.

Information released this week by the Detroit River International Crossing (DRIC) team focused on extreme costs, construction hurdles and safety concerns, the mayor said.

"They are setting up the tunnel option to fail," Francis said. "They have emphasized the negative rather than give it an unbiased and fair treatment in comparison to other options."

The binational DRIC team is responsible for making a final recommendation for the locations of the next border crossing, plazas and feeder roads.

Two of the five remaining highway feeder road solutions being considered by DRIC are at-grade six-lane highways, two others are depressed roads, plus a cut and cover tunnel option.

A six-kilometre tunnel will cost $3.8 billion to build and offers insignificant environmental benefits, DRIC said this week.

The mayor made reference to recent federal announcements to build a $1-billion highway bypass around Montreal and another Trans-Canada highway twinning project near Banff, Alta., to better protect wildlife.

"Whether it's out west or Quebec it's about doing it right," he said. "We accept the responsibility that comes with being the gateway for the nation's trade. But it can't be on the backs of our residents and at the expense of our community."

Windsor residents need to be aware that DRIC is nearing the end of its environmental assessment process and once its final recommendation is made in about six months, only minor changes can be made, Francis said.

In a terse September letter to DRIC, the mayor accused it of setting up the process to fail.

The "sheer number of unnecessary" expropriated properties, number of trucks that will "continue to run through the heart of the city" and "other ill effects of the currently proposed scenarios leads me to question the desire of DRIC," said Francis.

DRIC said in a letter to Francis that it was "deeply disturbed" by his suggestion and insisted it is doing its best to seek a solution "that will provide the best balance of transportation benefits and environmental impacts."

STUDY BRANDISHED

MP Brian Masse (NDP -- Windsor West) also lashed out Friday at the border route selection process, demanding the federal government steer clear of any public-private partnerships to build the new bridge or feeder roads.

He produced a Citigroup investment firm study showing privately owned bridges require toll rates 35 to 40 per cent higher than public ones. Masse is upset over federal Transportation Minister Lawrence Cannon's recent announcement that Ottawa would seek a private partner for border construction projects in Windsor.

© The Windsor Star 2006

[upinottawa]

Another Gordo bridge column from December 9th:

Taken for rubes

Gord Henderson, Windsor Star

Wouldn't you love to have been a fly on the wall when the bureaucrats and consultants were brainstorming how to sucker Windsor-area residents into swallowing a bargain-basement border "solution."

Imagine the contempt in that room. Imagine the patronizing attitude that would have led them to believe we're such gullible simpletons down here in Hooterville that we could be slapped into line with big, scary construction numbers for a tunnelled route and head-scratching air testing results.

Pierre Quennville, a 54-year Talbot Road resident, said it best in an interview with The Star's Dave Battagello: "Toronto and Ottawa must think we are a bunch of hillbillies down here that will take anything that comes along or they have just written us off."

Hillbillies indeed. No doubt they're nice people at heart. But the folks overseeing this Detroit River International Crossing (DRIC) study are mercenaries with marching orders and have only two real priorities: streamline the flow of 18-wheelers across the border, and do so with the least damage to the provincial and federal treasuries.

Mollifying the local yokels (that's you and me) never has been and never will be more than a secondary consideration. At the end of this process, these hired guns will return (perhaps with hefty bonuses for minimizing expenditures) to their comfortable homes in quiet, leafy communities like Rosedale and the Glebe and never give a second thought to the noise, dirt and disruption facing Windsorites for the next century and beyond.

We may be innocents. But we do read newspapers and check websites and we know our senior governments are prepared to move heaven and earth, with fat cheques, to keep voters happy in communities with clout, like Montreal, Vancouver and even little old Charlottetown.

Only a month ago Prime Minister Stephen Harper and Quebec Premier Jean Charest were preening for the cameras while announcing funding in excess of $1 billion to complete a highway bypass south of the island of Montreal.

Cities with clout

"This time it's for real," said Harper of repeatedly stalled plans to finish Highway 30 in order to divert truck traffic away from the inner city and make life easier for Montreal motorists.

That's a billion dollars, perhaps $1.5 billion, being spent, not to open the country's sclerotic trade arteries, but to make the commute to downtown Montreal office jobs less annoying.

Two months ago Harper was in Vancouver announcing federal help totalling $591 million toward B.C.'s

$3-billion Asia-Pacific Gateway and Corridor Initiative, a series of road, bridge and port improvements designed to increase Canada's share of west coast shipping and triple trade with China.

B.C. Premier Gordon Campbell has described the federal money as a "downpayment" on the billions needed to compete with U.S. and Mexican ports. "Our biggest problem on the Pacific Coast right now, in Canada, is that we don't think big enough," warned Campbell.

I doubt anyone in Ontario would object to seeing their tax dollars spent on B.C. ports and roads. If the shipping containers don't get here on time from China, where would we buy our consumer goods? Who would dress us in polyester and put plastic shoes on our feet?

Campbell's quote is equally apt for Windsor. Our biggest problem on the south coast right now, in Canada, is that we don't think big enough.

This country thought big enough when it came to creating the billion-dollar Confederation Bridge linking P.E.I. to the mainland in 1997. It was built to serve an island with only two-thirds of Windsor's population and hardly any industry. But it had four precious federal ridings and that was all that mattered.

On Huron Church Road we're talking about this country's lifeblood. Half a billion dollars in trade each and every day. This is where Canada earns its living -- and gets the money to pay for Montreal bypasses and P.E.I. bridges -- and it's unconscionable that so-called experts should be contemplating anything less than a world-class solution like a tunnel.

By the way, the DRIC's estimated $3.8-billion tunnel price tag would, according to tunnelling websites, make it one of the most costly tunnelling projects on the planet, almost as costly at $633 million per kilometre as the Chunnel under the Straits of Dover between England and France.

Almost as pricey as one of the engineering wonders of the world? An undersea miracle in the same cost bracket as digging up Huron Church Road? Give me a break. Something doesn't add up here.

[fastcarsfreedom]

If anything makes Windsor look like a backwater, it's local media columnists and politicians calling a preliminary price quote on a tunnel inflated and/or false--and doing so without any proof or alternate numbers to back their accusations. No one has yet grasped the fact that a cut-cover tunnel (necessitated by Windsor's soil type) is exponentially more expensive than a bored tunnel. While I agree with Henderson that the decision to end 401 at Highway 3 was short-sighted--it would in fact have been an at grade highway had it been built--the very thing Henderson, Francis, etc. all now say would destroy the city. Im not anti or pro tunnel--the only thing I care about is getting the solution--whatever it is, built and brought online quickly and efficiently--saying an at-grade or below-grade solution is a "cheap out" must be the most petulant thing I've heard out of City Hall Square in a long time. The truth is, all the city's reaction will insure in the long run is an imposed solution to which it will have little or no input.

[arnold]

well... personally, i think that windsor needs to do whatever it can to get a fair deal here. the city's west end has some significant problems associated with the current truck traffic, and its only sure to get worse as traffic is increased.

and i think that most windsorites would agree that past experiences have proven that sometimes government agencies don't always have the local citizens best interests in mind. i do agree with gord henderson here... its all very political.

[upinottawa]

Does this article actually say why the city is in a race against time???

City urged to speed arena project
Time called 'critical' as council weighs fast track agreements with developer

Roseann Danese, Windsor Star
Published: Wednesday, December 13, 2006

The city is in a race against time to build a $48-million arena on Windsor's east end.

City council is being asked to approve "interim" agreements with PCR Contractors, which would be followed up later with final agreements, in order to meet the tight schedule for a fall 2008 opening.

"Each day, week and month is critical," Mike Stamp, the city's senior property manager, wrote in a report that will be discussed at Monday's council meeting.

City council will be asked to approve temporary agreements in advance of signing the full arena contract so that PCR Contractors can begin work on the project.

Mayor Eddie Francis said there are no changes to the project because "all the major terms have already been agreed to."

The city is drawing up documents for the land transactions with London developer Shmuel Fahri, who owns the 40 acres behind the Lear plant where the arena will go.

In exchange, Fahri gets city land on Riverside Drive next to the Art Gallery of Windsor.

"Since the land transactions are not scheduled to close until January 31, 2007, Fahri Holdings Corporation has agreed it will enter into a consent to enter agreement to allow for work to commence on the site prior to the finalization of the land transfer," the report says.

ENVIRONMENTAL TESTING

Francis said the city needs to get on the site to complete environmental testing before construction begins. If that's delayed into the new year, the entire project schedule will be pushed back.

Council is also being asked to allow administration to sign a letter of intent with PCR "in advance of signing the full design/build contract for the arena project" so the project can be expedited.

But the expediency may come at a cost, according to the council report. "By entering into the letter of intent with PCR, the city will assume financial responsibility for certain costs incurred by PCR as part of their ultimate responsibility as design/build contractors for the arena project. These costs may include architectural fees, material orders, etc."

Francis said that would only happen "if we pull the plug" on the project.

If the project is halted, for any reason, the city would be responsible for all costs incurred up to that point.

Francis said the $48-million cost cited by PCR won't change. "In terms of cost, PCR has given us a fixed-price contract."

COST CONTROLS

The construction of the new arena will have several layers of oversight to ensure costs don't spiral out of control. An arena steering committee will consist of three councillors reporting directly to city council. The committee will receive regular updates on construction and monthly financial reports. The committee will also have the authority to approve changes to the arena budget over $150,000. An executive committee will be comprised of seven senior city managers who will report to the steering committee and prepare monthly reports to city council on progress and budget issues.

© The Windsor Star 2006

[westerntragedy]

^ they getting nervous about IceTrack? I noticed the Project IceTrack construction area signs are up at Manning and the 401. IceTrack will be located on the northwest corner of that intersection.

[upinottawa]

Any word on Tecumseh landing an AHL team?

I said this in an earlier post, but I wouldn't mind the Spits playing on Manning road for 10-15 years if it meant that Windsor would eventually build a downtown rink (people will get fed up with the Tecumseh location and call for a downtown rink -- Ottawans now know this!).

I still don't think the far east end is the proper place for Windsor to build its premier rink (although I think they should build the community rinks).

[arnold]

Casino to take Caesars name


The Associated Press


Friday, December 15, 2006


Goodbye Casino Windsor. Hello Caesars Windsor.

The gambling palace announced Friday that it will change its name in early 2008, upping the ante in its ongoing battle against three competing casinos across the river in Detroit.

The name switchover will coincide with a number of other significant changes, including a new 22-story hotel and a 5,000-square-foot entertainment centre. On Friday, the casino unveiled its newly renovated two-level rotunda, which will serve as the buildings town square and incorporates design elements used at other Caesars properties.

The $400-million in renovations and additions are being funded by the Ontario government, which owns the casino and hopes the moves will help it draw more American patrons.

Casino Windsor has been struggling of late, thanks in part to a smoking ban and stiff competition from Detroit's gambling halls, which themselves are undergoing improvements.

Harrah's Entertainment Inc., which owns the Caesars name as well as an interest in Casino Windsor, will manage the casino.

Tim Wilmott, chief operating officer of Harrah’s, said Caesars was “the most recognized, respected casino brand” in the U.S. “Caesars Windsor will live up to that proud tradition, combining first-class restaurants, shows and casino games with an extraordinary level of attentive service unequaled among any Detroit-area casinos,” he said during a news conference at the casino.



I guess that explains why the giant Casino Windsor sign came daow a few months back.

[Border City Boy]

Great news on the name change. It should allow Windsor to better compete in the Detroit market, with some name brand recognition. Hopefully it will also attract some big name acts to the new auditorium being built.

[upinottawa]

Interesting development. That being said, I would have preferred Caesar's Casino Windsor. "Casino Windsor" is definitely a name brand in the Detroit area. Detroit-area patrons are still the focus, right? Or is the plan to attract people from other parts of the US (bring your passports, boys)?

[yupislyr]

Originally Posted by westerntragedy

^ they getting nervous about IceTrack?

No doubt.

The same day that that story above appeared, this story appeared a couple pages over:

Ice Track project adds investors
Hotel confirmed, pool possible, town told

BY GARY RENNIE STAR COUNTY REPORTER

LAKESHORE
Project Ice Track in Tecumseh is getting bigger, with a hotel confirmed for the first phase and new outside investors proposing additional ideas to participate with the Toldo and Rosati companies, Lakeshore council was told Tuesday.

Even the decades- old dream of an Olympic-sized swimming pool is being pitched, said Paul Twigg, spokesman for Project Ice Track.

Twigg said the pool isn’t high on the priority list for the private investors, but could be pursued with municipal funding. “ We keep hearing the pool word,” he said.

Twigg wouldn’t reveal the new investors or their ideas for the 250-acre commercial site for the project at the corner of Highway 401 and Manning Road.

Twigg invited Lakeshore to get on board by confirming its interest in a community rink — or two.

Twigg said the main rink with fixed seating of 6,500 for an AHL team could be supplemented by as many as four community rinks if there’s enough demand in the region.

Councillors were generally favourable but a final decision likely won’t be made until at least January when Twigg said Project Ice Track would have some new cost figures and a firmer timetable for municipal participation.

“ It’s a huge project,” said Twigg. “We’re trying to do it right.”

Based on current demand for ice in Lakeshore, Deputy Mayor Bob Sylvester said the town probably needs at least one more practice rink and access to a rink with significant seating.

Sylvester said the town should pursue sharing ice with Tecumseh, the public partner on Project Ice Track.

Coun. Al Fazio pushed the idea of a public swimming pool in the complex since Lakeshore doesn’t have one.

Generally, Project Ice Track is aiming to have the new racetrack and AHL rink open in 2008 and the municipal rink complex open in 2009, Twigg said.

However, a firmer timetable is being developed that could be unveiled by the end of the year, he said.

Twigg was confident the demographics for the Detroit-Windsor-Essex County area would support the project and its AHL franchise.

Within an hour’s drive of Project Ice Track, there are about five million people, but just one NHL team and two OHL teams, Twigg said. The Toronto area has almost six million people in a one- hour driving range, but has one NHL team, two AHL and seven OHL teams being supported by fans, he said.

“ We really feel there’s a need for this ( AHL) team in this region,” Twigg said.

The only remaining issue for the franchise is confirming an affiliation with an NHL team, he said.

For the presentation to Lakeshore, Nick and Tony Rosati, and Brad Drewitt, corporate finance manager for Toldo Corporation Services joined Twigg.

[arnold]

Twigg was confident the demographics for the Detroit-Windsor-Essex County area would support the project and its AHL franchise.

Within an hour’s drive of Project Ice Track, there are about five million people, but just one NHL team and two OHL teams, Twigg said. The Toronto area has almost six million people in a one- hour driving range, but has one NHL team, two AHL and seven OHL teams being supported by fans, he said.


personally, i'm skeptical when i see people quote stats like this. although it may be mostly true, the vast majority of that population is on the US side of the border, and a great deal of it resides in the suburbs on the far side of the city.

when i used to commute out to arbor hills from my place in downtown windsor it would take anywhere from an hour (at 5:30am) to three hours (depending on tunnel traffic). so while there may be 5 million people in the greater region, realistically, how may of those people are going to make the trip to see an AHL game on the canadian side of the border? is the prospect of seeing some AHL hockey really that big a draw? (i'm not trying to be a dick here, i really don't know...) do the spitfires have a loyal or sizeable US following? does anyone know this info off hand?

i suppose the race track will help make it more of an 'event', although not a very family friendly one. what will the tag line be? "bring the kids to see the game, and then lock them in the car while you hit the races..."


IMO, I think that it would be much more realistic for them to expect to draw almost entirely from the winsdor-essex county population. although, like i said earlier, this is all opinion and i have no proof or research to back that up...LOL...