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  #1121  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2006, 4:47 PM
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the city's subsidy for the InterContinental Hotel is paid upon completion of the project. so for the city, there is zero risk in this project going through.
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  #1122  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2006, 8:06 PM
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^ Thanks Tower. Reading one of the letters to the bee today (B6 Opinion Section, left page right hand side) it came across as the city gave Saca the money already. I wish for more information and less mis-information. Hard to find these days apparently....
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  #1123  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2006, 2:46 AM
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I was referring to the statement of the big metropolis of fresno vs sac......

In reality they arent much different sports wise.......a AAA baseball team{both) a minor league hockey team(fresno yes sac no) a soon to be departing NbA team{sac yes fresno no)......a local college football team who can draw more than 3000 fans....oooooops fresno st yes sac st no.........

I Just dont see the blast fresno mentality here........
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  #1124  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2006, 2:49 AM
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Also in the Aura deposits is there a back out if the building is not done by a certain date???? sorry wrong thread but giving money with a schedule that never was even attempted to be actual is a tough buy. How he doesnt own the land or hasnt picked up approved permits is very strange....cant blame the city on this.
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  #1125  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2006, 4:35 AM
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  #1126  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2006, 4:59 AM
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^ Great to see them still selling well!
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  #1127  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2006, 5:06 AM
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Just out of curiosity I looked it up, I always knew the two cities were close and Fresno was usually a head of Sacto in the census for the last 20 years or so.

1/1/2006 numbers, city proper

FRESNO 471,479
SACRAMENTO 457,514

Bakersfield is over 300K now, wow
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  #1128  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2006, 5:16 AM
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^ Miami and Minneapolis are both in the 300-350K range. It's metro that matters. Oh well...
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  #1129  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2006, 5:29 AM
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yeah this was discussed in another thread awhile back, had sacramento incorporated some of the cities that are there own cities now, i.e elk grove, carmicheal, rancho cordova, or even incorporated the arden area the metro could be anywhere from 600k to over a million, as stated the metro area is what counts so in reality sac is more comparable to cities like san antonio, or denver, ect.

phoenix, san diego, have large city pops becuase smaller cities are incorporated into the main city population, much like the l.a model of growth, its complex but fresno isn't in the same size, economic status, ect overall with the metro area of sac.
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  #1130  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2006, 5:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmtbr
^ Great to see them still selling well!
That would be 14 this month and I think 14 last month.
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  #1131  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2006, 6:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bennywah
yeah this was discussed in another thread awhile back, had sacramento incorporated some of the cities that are there own cities now, i.e elk grove, carmicheal, rancho cordova, or even incorporated the arden area the metro could be anywhere from 600k to over a million, as stated the metro area is what counts so in reality sac is more comparable to cities like san antonio, or denver, ect.

phoenix, san diego, have large city pops becuase smaller cities are incorporated into the main city population, much like the l.a model of growth, its complex but fresno isn't in the same size, economic status, ect overall with the metro area of sac.
Exactly. Thanks.

Do you get it now Web? Or do we need to go over this for you one more time?
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  #1132  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2006, 9:59 AM
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From Wikipedia

Fresno metropolitan area, the second largest metropolitan area in the Central Valley with a population of 1,002,284.

With a population of 2.5 million, the Sacramento metropolitan area is the largest in the Central Valley, and is the fourth-largest in California, behind the Los Angeles-Orange County area, the San Francisco Bay Area, and the San Diego area.

Funny quote from a movie "Fresno! No one goes to Fresno anymore!"
What movie and what actor??
Hint : Its an 80's comedy...
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  #1133  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2006, 6:32 PM
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Just arriving in Sacramento from Columbus, OH I can tell you that Sacramento's metro area feels larger than Columbus, even though Columbus city population is much higher.

Metro Sacramento feels much like Cincinnatti in size, although downtown Cinci is more substantial. The density of the Elk Groves and Rosevilles is nothing like you see in Ohio suburbs.
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  #1134  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2006, 4:16 PM
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  #1135  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2006, 7:34 PM
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Wall Street Journal Article

The New Word in Home Sales: 'Canceled'
Buyers Back Out of Deals
In Record Numbers;
A $30,000 Deposit, Lost
By JUNE FLETCHER and RUTH SIMON
November 3, 2006; Page W1

A little over a year ago, buyers couldn't wait to sign contracts to purchase homes. Now, many can't wait to get out of them.

With real-estate prices falling around the country and even pro-industry trade groups predicting further declines over the next year, buyers are backing away from deals in droves. At a semiannual housing forecast conference last week in Washington, D.C., economists reported that contract-cancellation rates for big builders were running around 40% -- about twice as high as last year's levels. Anecdotally, real-estate professionals say they are seeing a similar dynamic in existing-home sales.


Some of the cancellations are by people who signed new-home contracts at one price months ago, haven't yet closed, and are now stunned to see the builder drastically cutting prices on identical properties. Some are by speculators caught short by other investments they can't unload. And some are by people trapped in a chain reaction: They can't sell their old home -- or the buyer has canceled the contract -- so they are being forced to cancel the deal on a new house they are buying somewhere else.

"There are a whole lot of people running from contracts," says Alexandria, Va., real-estate attorney Beau Brincefield. He is currently representing more than 50 buyers who are seeking to get out of contracts on single-family homes, townhouses and condos, compared with none a year ago.

Even though it may mean losing a deposit that could run tens of thousands of dollars -- deposits typically range from 1% to 5% of the purchase price -- many buyers are deciding that is less onerous than the alternative. With median new-home prices already 9.7% below last year's levels, according to the U.S. Commerce Department, bailing out now may be less painful than committing to an expensive, and possibly depreciating, investment.

It's a far cry from the home-flipping exuberance of the past few years, when rising home values fueled a buy-and-sell mentality among millions of homeowners, and trading up became a staple of reality TV and home-improvement shows.

New-home builders are taking a big hit from record numbers of contract cancellations, or "kickouts." Fort Worth, Texas-based D.R. Horton Inc., the nation's biggest developer, says its cancellation rate is currently 40%, compared with 29% a year ago. Meritage Homes Corp., in Scottsdale, Ariz., is reporting a 37% kickout rate, compared with 21% a year ago. And Standard Pacific Corp. says that 50% of its contracts fell through in the third quarter of this year, compared with 18% for the same period last year. The Irvine, Calif.-based developer built 11,400 homes across the country last year. Among its current projects: Glenmeadow, a gated community in Simi Valley, Calif., where three- and four-bedroom homes range from $1.1 million to $1.3 million.

Caught Between Two Mortgages

Cancellations by buyers of existing homes are up as well. Although no formal measures exist, historically they have been in the 2% range, according to the National Association of Realtors. In September, however, nearly half of the 454 agents responding to an online NAR survey said they had recently experienced cancellation rates higher than that.

Sean Shallis, senior real-estate strategist for the Shallis Team of Re/Max Villa Realtors in Jersey City, N.J., says that roughly 22% of his sales have fallen apart before closing this year because the buyers backed out, up from 10% last year. With the market cooling, buyers have decided they can buy a similar property for less. For others, adjustable-rate mortgages have gotten more expensive, making a home purchase too costly, Mr. Shallis says. To reduce the chances of cancellation, he is advising his clients to close their deals as quickly as possible after the offer is accepted, and to put fewer contingencies in the contract. "The longer your property is under contract, the longer the buyer has to talk and think about it and watch the market change."

Mr. Shallis himself is among the would-be buyers with cold feet. Late last year, he agreed to pay $595,000 for a new two-bedroom condominium in Jersey City for his in-laws. He pulled the plug on the deal this summer after his father-in-law's illness scotched the planned move. "My exit strategy was if they didn't move into it, we could sell it or rent it," Mr. Shallis says. But that plan made less sense after the price of similar properties dropped to as low as $529,000. At the same time, higher short-term interest rates made it unlikely that he would be able to cover his mortgage payments and other costs if he found a renter. Instead, Mr. Shallis walked away from the contract and lost his $30,000 deposit.

A sinking home appraisal quashed the deal for retirees Denis and Michael Budge. The couple put their two-bedroom house in Carson City, Nev., on the market a little more than a year ago at $495,000, so they could move to another home they had already bought in Waldport, Ore. After some nail-biting months with few showings and no offers, they finally landed a buyer, who signed a contract in June for $425,000.

Rising Interest Rates

But during the escrow period, as prices in their area continued to slide, the appraisal came in -- at $395,000. The Budges were still willing to sell, even at that greatly reduced price, but the buyer backed out the day before the closing. (Through his agent, he declined to comment.) The Budges pocketed the $1,000 deposit, of course, but now they are stuck with two mortgages -- a hardship on their fixed incomes. "We thought we were going to relax and enjoy our retirement," says Ms. Budge. "Not any more."


Kickouts were high nationwide in the late '80s, and in California and New England in the early '90s, spurred by massive job losses. But until now there's never been a period where cancellations have spiked in the absence of a recession, according to Amy Crews Cutts, deputy chief economist at Freddie Mac. Ms. Cutts says the current jitters are largely a result of investors fleeing the housing market in the last few months, which "slammed [it] into reverse," and consumers' fears that the bubble had burst. Rising interest rates earlier this year also gave buyers who hadn't yet closed on their homes cold feet. The result: a huge backlog of unsold homes, which could further depress prices.

But mortgage rates have fallen recently, and if they stay below 6.5%, Ms. Cutts expects that buyers will regain their confidence by late spring, causing cancellations to ease up. Vienna, Va., housing economist Thomas Lawler agrees, but says builders must continue to cut their production and sell off their inventory so supply and demand can get back in balance. "Builders need to take a bullet," he says.

Buyer's remorse does have legal consequences, but the laws vary from state to state and depend on how the purchase contract was written. Usually, a buyer who defaults will have to give up the "good faith" or "earnest money" deposit that was made when the contract was accepted. But typically there is also some wiggle room written into contracts that allows buyers to cancel without penalty -- for instance, if they can't get financing, if the home inspection uncovers defects that the seller won't correct, or if the seller doesn't make certain disclosures. Just changing your mind, however, isn't a valid excuse to cancel. A court could find that a buyer who got cold feet is in breach of contract and liable for the seller's expenses, plus damages -- or could even force the sale.

Of course, it is better not to wind up in court. To keep deals from falling apart, builders are offering everything from free vacations and cars to help with closing costs and mortgage-rate buy-downs -- and they are cutting prices, too. "They're hungry," says Gopal Ahluwalia, director of research at the National Association of Home Builders, the organization that sponsored last week's forecast conference.

Upgrades Required

Most of these incentives are dangled to attract new customers. But as the market has cooled and kickout rates have risen, nervous builders have also been quietly sweetening the pot for buyers they have already snagged but whose contracts haven't yet closed -- just to keep them from bailing out of the deal. Some are even offering to drop the selling price after contracts have been signed.

Two years ago, Rosemary and Paul Owen, both federal employees, signed a $350,000 contract on a three-bedroom condo in Cape Canaveral, Fla., that was yet to be built. Since they knew it would take a long time for the building to be completed -- and the housing market was rapidly rising -- they took their time getting their old house in West Melbourne, Fla., ready for sale. By the time they were ready to sell their three-bedroom home this January, buyers weren't biting. Though they lowered their asking price to $359,000 from $439,000, only 18 people looked at their home over a 10-month period, and no one made an offer.

So they went to the builder in Cape Canaveral to get out of the deal and to get back the $22,000 they had paid for a deposit and upgrades. He wouldn't allow that, but he did offer to lower the price of the condo by $21,000 to $329,000 -- the amount he was asking new buyers to pay for a unit that was identical to the one the Owens had purchased two years ago. He also extended the deadline for closing until the end of November. The Owens haven't decided whether they will walk away from their deposit if they can't sell their old home by then. "We don't need two places," says Ms. Owen.

Meanwhile, builders' willingness to lard up their incentives is putting added pressure on sellers of existing homes to do the same. Many are finding it necessary to add thousands of dollars in upgrades to compete with what builders are giving away. Jim Parker, an exclusive buyer's agent in Atlanta, says that in the last quarter, three out of the five buyers he's been working with have bailed out of a contract, while no one canceled during the same period a year ago. "Before, if something was not perfect, they'd buy it anyway. Now they won't," Mr. Parker says. Buyers are also demanding more upgrades. "They're asking for everything, right down to the flat-screen television," he says. "They're comparing houses to a brand-new house, and they expect the house to be updated with new paint and carpeting."

Since most people who are buying are also selling -- seven out of 10 households already own homes -- some are finding themselves of two minds when it comes to kickouts. Glenn Nudell, a shipping executive, recently got $115,000 in concessions, including help with closing costs and fix-up money, when he bought a 12-year-old five-bedroom home in Skillman, N.J., for almost $1.1 million. If the seller hadn't agreed, he says, "I'd have backed away." But then he had to sell his eight-year-old, four-bedroom home in Princeton, N.J. He made sure it was as polished as a builder's model, with new wood floors and carpeting, new cabinets and even a newly finished basement -- but he couldn't sell it until he had knocked $70,000 off of his original $630,000 asking price. Is he concerned that the buyer of his house might back away from the deal before it closes next month? "Of course," he says.

Write to June Fletcher at [email protected] and Ruth Simon at [email protected]
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  #1136  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2006, 7:53 PM
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Great article, it illustrates the current climate well.
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  #1137  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2006, 6:53 AM
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POGO...I said it before and I'll say it again...you're an idiot! Sacramento is not mentioned anywhere in that article. You're talking about places where there has been substantial growth for decades. I don't think you could say the same about Sacramento. Another thing is, you're talking about suburban cities. You posted this in the Towers thread(obviously to stir things up you dumb little NIMBY you!!!!!). The Towers are being built DOWNTOWN. As I've said before, this is an untapped market in Sacramento. Take your fight for lowrise housing to Roseville and Elk Grove. The downtown area in the capital of the largest state in the U.S. is no place for little dreams. We've had enough of that crap over the years and it's time to dream big now. If you don't like it, go to Fargo, ND or Wichita, KS. I'm sure you'll find plenty of other like-minded, small-minded idiots to join with you in your crusade for lowrise housing and pessimistic bullsh!t. But, you're not going to find them on this forum. It's called SKYSCRAPERpage.com for a reason...and it's not because the people that come here want lowrise residential areas in the middle of downtown. Take your bowtie and cane and get the hell out of here!
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  #1138  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2006, 9:34 AM
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^
that was rather scathing, lol. In any case the point being this project is far to into construction to just stop, really its more about the profit saca will or wont make, but the project is going up!! In san diego the article from wall st journal would fit better than to sacramentos market, san diego now has an overstock of highrise projects started during the end of the boom that now have reduced prices, offering upgrades, and even cars in some cases!!

there is a limited supply of high rise, high class, urban living in sacramento, and with the laws of supply and demand in effect, a population growth which will continue to be amongst the highest in the nation let alone ca, and higher energy cost which will drive the next gerneration of buyers into transit, dense urban areas as opposed to sprawly neighborhoods, people willing to take the risk now to buy and build in 10 years will be seen as pioneers in the future.

many cities began an urban renewal in times which weren't favorable, as an example joe zieden whos part of the k st makeover process, helped developed the gas lamp in san diego in the 80's when there was a much worse real estate crash then there is now and in 06 its a tourist, urban lively area that helped spawn a rebirth of "america's finest city".

it takes people with a big vision and guts to risk a whole lot but see that it'll be beneficial in the long run to changing minds and getting things done, numbers dont always tell a full story and if anything people have now gone into a self fullfilling wish to let the real estate market crash when as majin stated its back to a normal sales track, and over inflated exsisting housing is coming down to price levels which are substainable.

the stock market went down hill in the early 90's and now is back again at record levels, and both real estate and stock prices have always trended to go up rather than down. I predict that people who buy in the next two years will reap some serious rewards 5-10 years from now in the bargins they'll get during the correction, if your smart you'd look at the long term and decide to stop reading into short term numbers and maybe buy something while theres a break in over pricing!!
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  #1139  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2006, 5:10 PM
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Wow Nuehickman79, you're really angry again today. Better get your doc to refill your prescription dear. In case you didn't notice, I didn't write the article, I only posted it. When the Wall Street Journal (or any other credible publication) writes an article about how wonderful the market is in cities like Sacramento, I'll post that here. In the meantime, I think your doctor could recommend some good anger management classes for you.
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  #1140  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2006, 8:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by POGO
Wow Nuehickman79, you're really angry again today. Better get your doc to refill your prescription dear. In case you didn't notice, I didn't write the article, I only posted it. When the Wall Street Journal (or any other credible publication) writes an article about how wonderful the market is in cities like Sacramento, I'll post that here. In the meantime, I think your doctor could recommend some good anger management classes for you.
I just found it suspicious with all your naysaying that you would post an article like that in the Towers thread when it has absolutely nothing to do with the Towers. Your small-minded opinions aren't welcome here! Go find a NIMBY group to join if you want to have no vision. But, not here please!...and by the way...the WSJ did not write an article about anything having to do with Sacramento in case you didn't notice. I have no anger problems. I'm just very passionate about dense, smart, urban development in downtown Sacramento and I happen to like skyscrapers. I also happen NOT to like people like yourself who constantly talk about how things are out of scale and don't belong. Guess what!? Hold up a mirror and you'll see something that's out of scale and doesn't belong. You have not ONCE contributed to this forum and that upsets me. If I had a problem with anger I wouldn't call you an idiot, I'd threaten harm(which I didn't nor will I ever do!). I'm not an angry person. Don't mistake my passion for anger just like you seem to mistake Sacramento for a city like Fresno or Tucson!
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