Transit Fantasies

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

It's about priorities. Our police budget is already excessive. What they are doing, who the hell knows.

I'm curious what you base the police budget being "excessive" on, not that I necessarily disagree. The 2025 police budget has the city spending about $584 per capita. For context, the City of Toronto budgeted about $433 per capita, however Toronto is amalgamated and we are not. Coquitlam for instance spends only $307 per capita. Vancouver has to police the DTES.

Remember that Vancouver is also one of the most expensive cities to live in in Canada, which is going to affect salaries.

As an additional data point, apparently San Francisco apparently budgeted over $1000 USD per capita for their police this year. Probably a comparable situation to Vancouver.

This is not very transit fantasy-y, so I'll say I love this candidate for DNV mayor!

https://www.nieweler.ca/unlock-gridlock

He even has his own transit fantasy maps on his website.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I'm curious what you base the police budget being "excessive" on, not that I necessarily disagree. The 2025 police budget has the city spending about $584 per capita. For context, the City of Toronto budgeted about $433 per capita, however Toronto is amalgamated and we are not. Coquitlam for instance spends only $307 per capita. Vancouver has to police the DTES.

Remember that Vancouver is also one of the most expensive cities to live in in Canada, which is going to affect salaries.

As an additional data point, apparently San Francisco apparently budgeted over $1000 USD per capita for their police this year. Probably a comparable situation to Vancouver.

I'm not sure why Toronto isn't an appropriate comparison. They have more violent crime and gang activity. You can start to talk about individual salaries if you want, I'm not sure how different they are, regardless of cost of living. Here's what AI says about VPD's costs, highlighting is mine. It has higher numbers for Vancouver than yours above.

Vancouver allocates a larger share of its municipal budget and higher per-capita spending to policing than most major Canadian and U.S. cities.
������ Comparative Budget Breakdown
• Budget Share: The Vancouver Police Department (VPD) consumes over 19% to 21% of the city’s annual operating budget, a higher proportion than many comparable jurisdictions.
• Per-Capita Spending: Vancouver's per-capita police spending sits significantly higher than other major urban centers like Toronto (which translates to roughly $648 per capita under recent proposals compared to Toronto's ~$403 per capita). Historically, studies have shown Vancouver maintains the highest per-capita police spending among major Canadian cities.
• U.S. Comparisons: Vancouver allocates higher total dollar amounts and a larger overall percentage of its municipal budget to policing compared to similarly-sized U.S. cities like Portland and Nashville.
������ Recent Trends and Drivers
• Budget Growth: The Vancouver Police Board approved a 2026 operating budget of $497 million, representing a 4.9% increase from 2025 and an increase of over 40% compared to 2022 figures.
• Overruns and Overtime: Similar to police services in Toronto, Calgary, and Montreal, the VPD has faced millions in budget overruns driven heavily by unplanned overtime, protests, staffing vacancies, and regional task forces.

ABC had no problem paying CoV employees less thanks to removing the Living Wage floor. Maybe the cops can deal with a few years of zero raises.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I'm not sure why Toronto isn't an appropriate comparison. They have more violent crime and gang activity. You can start to talk about individual salaries if you want, I'm not sure how different they are, regardless of cost of living. Here's what AI says about VPD's costs, highlighting is mine. It has higher numbers for Vancouver than yours above.

Well I'll compare notes with the AI then, I suppose.

Vancouver allocates a larger share of its municipal budget and higher per-capita spending to policing than most major Canadian and U.S. cities.
������ Comparative Budget Breakdown
• Budget Share: The Vancouver Police Department (VPD) consumes over 19% to 21% of the city’s annual operating budget, a higher proportion than many comparable jurisdictions.

Share of annual operating budget is a meaningless metric. If a city spends millions each year on snow removal the "share" of police funding goes down. Vancouver has famously been spendthrift with some of the lowest absolute property taxes (not rate) in Canada. So if police spending is the same per person as Montreal but Montreal spends more on other things, the "share" of the VPD is going to be higher.

• Per-Capita Spending: Vancouver's per-capita police spending sits significantly higher than other major urban centers like Toronto (which translates to roughly $648 per capita under recent proposals compared to Toronto's ~$403 per capita). Historically, studies have shown Vancouver maintains the highest per-capita police spending among major Canadian cities.

You're right I did mess up my numbers slightly, but still not sure where $648 comes from. We only have official population estimates up to 2025 so:

Vancouver 2025 final police budget after topups: $442,900,000 approx.
Vancouver 2025 BC Stats population estimate: 751,644 approx.
X/Y = $589 per capita

Toronto 2025 police budget: $1,418,200,000 approx.
Toronto 2025 Stat Can population estimate: 3,271,830 approx.
X/Y = $433 per capita.

Vancouver does have the highest per capita spending, but it's not a huge outlier.


https://utppublishing.com/doi/full/10.3138/cpp.2022-050

• U.S. Comparisons: Vancouver allocates higher total dollar amounts and a larger overall percentage of its municipal budget to policing compared to similarly-sized U.S. cities like Portland and Nashville.

Doesn't seem to address what I said about San Francisco. New York supposedly is around $800 USD per person, Chicago is similar. LA is closer to $600-700 USD per person.

Also I think the AI might have currency conversion issues since Portland's budget is about $494 USD per person which is around $700 CAD. Nashville's is only around $440-450 so that's $624 CAD.

This is not showing what you want it be showing.

������ Recent Trends and Drivers
• Budget Growth: The Vancouver Police Board approved a 2026 operating budget of $497 million, representing a 4.9% increase from 2025 and an increase of over 40% compared to 2022 figures.
• Overruns and Overtime: Similar to police services in Toronto, Calgary, and Montreal, the VPD has faced millions in budget overruns driven heavily by unplanned overtime, protests, staffing vacancies, and regional task forces.

Well that's all true. Supposedly 80% of the police budget goes directly to paying for overtime so isn't that an argument for hiring more cops?

ABC had no problem paying CoV employees less thanks to removing the Living Wage floor. Maybe the cops can deal with a few years of zero raises.

Maybe, or maybe we have trouble hiring and we have to pay fewer cops more overtime?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Well that's all true. Supposedly 80% of the police budget goes directly to paying for overtime so isn't that an argument for hiring more cops?

That number doesn't pass the sanity test.

As for costs, we're the highest in Canada per capita. I don't see how you can argue we aren't paying too much, considering the — service we are getting.

Regarding the DTES and drugs issue, VPD doesn't even respond to those. That's all VFD and ambulance.

[CanSpice]

These are some weird transit fantasies going on here. If only there was some kind of municipal politics thread in a politics-related subforum.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

That number doesn't pass the sanity test.

You're right the BIV article I read has a typo. It's salaries (comma,) overtime, benefits, and payroll deductions. Still where 80% of the budget is going. And I see that almost 9% of payroll goes to overtime.

As for costs, we're the highest in Canada per capita. I don't see how you can argue we aren't paying too much, considering the — service we are getting.

Regarding the DTES and drugs issue, VPD doesn't even respond to those. That's all VFD and ambulance.

I'm unhappy with the service too, but do you think people in Toronto are happier? Or in Nashville? Do you think ours would be better if we cut to Quebec City levels?

Also see on the chart that Surrey and Burnaby are below the mean. If we looked at the budget of Metro Vancouver which is comparable to Toronto, I wouldn't be surprised if the Metro Vancouver per capita budget is lower than Toronto.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by mcj

Additional fare gates is probably one of the most realistic transit fantasies

Yeah seriously it would help with passenger flow so much. When Cambie/49 gets denser hopefully by the end of the decade, there should be another station entrance on the west side of Cambie so passengers only have to cross the street once to enter the station. There are only three fare gates at the Pender/Granville entrance to Waterfront Canada Line, if they moved the barely used trash cans by the fare gates to somewhere more convenient, they could probably have fare gates wall to wall. To me they can fit in two skinnies and a fat, configured with the fats on both sides with the skinnies between, that way people who need to use the elevator don't need to filter through those entering and leaving the station, same with Langara but with at least one skinny and one fat, again for an easier walk from the fare gates to the elevator. They should do a review for all stations and where there is glass there should be a gate. For the glass gate with the keypad, just put the keypad on the wall or make an override for the faregate for emergency services and whoever uses the glass gate.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I live near Main St where there is a bus only lane during certain hours. People shortcut up it all the time. I have seen the VPD handing out tickets twice in my decade of living here. I'm not sure if the bus lane has been there for all 10 years, but it's clearly a joke.

It's clear that for this or speeding or anything else they have to have some big planned setup with 6-8 cops coordinating the whole thing. They can't just flip on the lights and pull somebody over for doing something stupid and dangerous.

Or just have cameras monitoring the bus lanes with automated tickets sent right to ICBC

[mcj]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Yeah seriously it would help with passenger flow so much. When Cambie/49 gets denser hopefully by the end of the decade, there should be another station entrance on the west side of Cambie so passengers only have to cross the street once to enter the station. There are only three fare gates at the Pender/Granville entrance to Waterfront Canada Line, if they moved the barely used trash cans by the fare gates to somewhere more convenient, they could probably have fare gates wall to wall. To me they can fit in two skinnies and a fat, configured with the fats on both sides with the skinnies between, that way people who need to use the elevator don't need to filter through those entering and leaving the station, same with Langara but with at least one skinny and one fat, again for an easier walk from the fare gates to the elevator. They should do a review for all stations and where there is glass there should be a gate. For the glass gate with the keypad, just put the keypad on the wall or make an override for the faregate for emergency services and whoever uses the glass gate.

Or just have cameras monitoring the bus lanes with automated tickets sent right to ICBC

Now that's starting to sound like a transit fantasy, although still within the realm of realism. However, if we didn't get a second entrance to Oakridge-41st (and Broadway City-Hall) despite the current density being built there, I think it's doubtful we'll see one at Langara 49th. Although I would like to see second entrances at all these stations, in a fantasy world.

Automated ticketing for bus lanes we could do tomorrow, and doesn't have the feasiblilty issues that second station entrances do. Same for more fare gates at the Hastings/Granville entrance for the Canada Line, I've noticed that too, as that's usually the entrance I use if I'm getting on the Canada Line after work.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by mcj

Now that's starting to sound like a transit fantasy, although still within the realm of realism. However, if we didn't get a second entrance to Oakridge-41st (and Broadway City-Hall) despite the current density being built there, I think it's doubtful we'll see one at Langara 49th. Although I would like to see second entrances at all these stations, in a fantasy world.

I reckon we will get second entrances once we have closer to 30 trains per hour per direction running in the shared section between Waterfront and Bridgeport simultaneously during peak times and/or when we have all platforms at 50m long and are using the middle C cars. Maximizing the fare gates at all stations should go first to maximize passenger throughput, quicker, cheaper, and easier than second entrances. I suppose if we're not renovating Burrard then we can forget about the Canada Line. Broadway-City Hall isn't getting the second entrance that should logically have been put in the final plans for the extension.

Automated ticketing for bus lanes we could do tomorrow, and doesn't have the feasiblilty issues that second station entrances do. Same for more fare gates at the Hastings/Granville entrance for the Canada Line, I've noticed that too, as that's usually the entrance I use if I'm getting on the Canada Line after work.

Cameras and fines would be a great way to get revenue. A camera in the fare gate itself to identify and ticket fare evaders would also be great.

[Migrant_Coconut]

The City Hall Millennium station has K.O. panels for a NE entrance and several for a City Hall annex... 41st, not so sure.

[officedweller]

Oakridge 41st Station has a knock-out panel to the north.
There already is an emergency exit to the east and nothing was built to tie into the new building there.

[p78hub]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Oakridge 41st Station has a knock-out panel to the north.
There already is an emergency exit to the east and nothing was built to tie into the new building there.

Unfortunately I don't think Oakridge 41st station will see another entrance ever added. Claridge House and Ambi didn't have any space allocated for an entrance, and apparently the NW corner of Cambie and 41st can't even have an entrance there because of how utilities and the Canada Line tracks are laid out.

[chowhou]

Since we're in the fantasy thread, who says the north knockout panel needs to go to an entrance? After all, the east-west Skytrain down 41st will need access and it's possible they treat it like the Millennium/Canada Line crossing at City Hall.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Oakridge 41st Station has a knock-out panel to the north.
There already is an emergency exit to the east and nothing was built to tie into the new building there.

Is there a drawing showing the location out there that anyone is aware of?

Originally Posted by chowhou

Since we're in the fantasy thread, who says the north knockout panel needs to go to an entrance? After all, the east-west Skytrain down 41st will need access and it's possible they treat it like the Millennium/Canada Line crossing at City Hall.

That would make sense. Although, Langara 49th is also an option for that interchange, but an alignment on 41st makes sense for everything West of Cambie Street. However East of Cambie an alignment on 49th is typically what I've seen in mockups, especially for a Metrotown connection. In a fantasy world, we'd probably also see a Marine Drive line along the existing rail corridor down there, so it might make sense to push the alignment up to 41st for the whole length for more optimal coverage.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by mcj

Is there a drawing showing the location out there that anyone is aware of?

From the detailed consultation before construction (arrow to the east of the oriiginal escalator / stairs)
I do not have better resolution.



Looks like the new escalators are to the west of the stiars - so the space reserved for the passage north (east of the original escalator/stairs) may be preserved.


https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/oakridge...construction-august-2026#google_vignette

I doubt there's space for a full-on Broadway City Hall type transfer station.
The Polygon development is probably along the east wall of the station.
Any passages from below should probably connect to either the platform level or the underpass under the tunnel,
but the ventilation shafts prevent connecting directly from north or south ends of the platforms and there's no space on the east side.
If a station was built under 41st Ave with a tunnel just to the west side of the station (at the arrow),
transferring passengers would have to use the existing underpass to get to the northbound platform.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by officedweller

From the detailed consultation before construction (arrow to the east of the oriiginal escalator / stairs)
I do not have better resolution.

Drop a link to that please

[cganuelas1995]

Fantasy that should be reality: Give us a westbound 5 stop at Pender and Granville.

[Glow Fun City]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Fantasy that should be reality: Give us a westbound 5 stop at Pender and Granville.

There is one between Granville and Howe, almost there.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Glow Fun City

There is one between Granville and Howe, almost there.

And there was one at Pender and Granville by the Rove Concepts.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Drop a link to that please

Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, 2006. Detailed Design Consultation – Summary Report, InTransitBC. Canada. Retrieved from https://coilink.org/20.500.12592/1sw6wdr on 05 Oct 2026. COI: 20.500.12592/1sw6wdr.


Should be available here if you don't have access via a library


https://www.llbc.leg.bc.ca/public/PubDocs/bcdocs/406937/index.htm


One another page it says:
Possible Future Connections
Future Extensions may be constructed underground connection Canada Line Station directly with the Oakridge Centre as well as to the sidewalk area on the northwest corner of the intersection.


and


Possible future connections to the station will include a direct underground linkage into the shopping mapp and north, underneath 41st Avenue, to the northwest corner of 41st and Cambie.