VIA Rail

[savevp]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

So this topic actually came up on CBC’s Power & Politics this afternoon.

He did notably mention the Gaspé route, though. Doesn't sound like the feds have any other plans beyond restoring the former Chaleur service, but at least that one seems likely to return.

[YOWetal]

In terms of new routes and really the viability of existing ones it seems like a missed opportunity to launch some new products and streamline the others. The labour costs are what kills the product but there are new European trains that pack more self contained streamlined sleeper products into each car.

Originally Posted by savevp

He did notably mention the Gaspé route, though. Doesn't sound like the feds have any other plans beyond restoring the former Chaleur service, but at least that one seems likely to return.

This is politically valuable and already in the works so seems like a given.

Originally Posted by manny_santos

So this topic actually came up on CBC’s Power & Politics this afternoon. The host asked Steven MacKinnon directly about re-establishing service to Regina, Calgary, Saint John, Fredericton (which has no railways anymore) and on Vancouver Island. His only response is that he’s open to the idea if VIA Rail came to the government with a business case for expanded service.

At least that’s better than a previous transportation minister who responded to a similar question about Regina by saying “Saskatoon already has VIA Rail service”.

Yeah we prefer to be lied to huh?

[biguc]

Go back to your current events dump, conbot.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by someone123

If you look at Alto, it has a proposed budget of $60-90B. The corridor served has around 18 million people in it. It's hard to get accurate initial ridership estimates but they talk about 24 million by 2055 and the discussion is oriented toward a future of long-term growth and investment, which is the right way to frame this kind of infrastructure development.

When you switch gears and look at the Maritimes, that Halifax-Moncton corridor is about 1/18 the scale. Proportional investment would be $3-5B. The projected growth is probably no lower there than in a corridor including Quebec; Moncton might even be the fastest-growing city in the country.

Let's be honest. Even a $1B transportation project for the Maritimes sounds like a pipe dream, though maybe it'll happen someday. It's not all directly applicable but I think there is a double standard and this back-of-the-napkin calculation is revealing.

Benefits don't scale linearly with population though, especially with rail. Benefits grow exponentially as population density increases, as rail requires higher levels of urbanism and lower rates of car-reliance, with higher rates of activities in proximity to central stations, to really thrive.. And that takes highly dense central cores.

Halifax is large enough to support rail services, especially if it was within rail distance of another Centre of similar or larger size. But all other destinations in the Maritimes are simply too small to really be supportive of significant rail service.

@monctonrad's proposed service plan of 2 trains a day is probably relatively reasonable, especially if you minimize overall infrastructure investment. But much beyond that would be throwing good money after bad.

The biggest gap in rail service in Canada, by far, is Calgary > Edmonton. That is a corridor which increasingly could support frequent high speed rail connections.. and has literally 0 existing service. Both cities have dense cores, strong transit connections to the core to support connections too and from the rail station, both are large urban centres, and they are almost perfect distances from each other to support rail travel. Plus there is a mid-sized city in between..

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

@monctonrad's proposed service plan of 2 trains a day is probably relatively reasonable, especially if you minimize overall infrastructure investment. But much beyond that would be throwing good money after bad.

Two trains per day is the bare minimum necessary to make a service at all convenient to use.

As for infrastructure, the CNR mainline from Halifax via Moncton to the Quebec border at Edmundston is a class A railway. The railway from Moncton to Saint John is also class A. Not surprising really. Both Halifax and SJ are port cities with container facilities, and, in SJs case, also bulk cargo as well (potash for example). Oil trains also take the Moncton/SJ route because of the Irving oil refinery down there.

The pronciple weak link for passenger rail in the region is the Bathurst sub (on the secondary CNR line from Miramichi to Bathurst in norther NB). This is in horrible condition since there is no freight traffic on this sub. Things are better west of Bathurst due to mining activity and the Port of Belledune.

Personally, I would be in favour of switching the route of the Ocean from the northern NB route to the CNR mainline via Edmundston. It is more direct and does not need to be upgraded. It goes through the wilderness in the centre of the province however, with no real potential for local train traffic. No worse than going through northern Ontario though.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by someone123

Let's be honest. Even a $1B transportation project for the Maritimes sounds like a pipe dream, though maybe it'll happen someday. It's not all directly applicable but I think there is a double standard and this back-of-the-napkin calculation is revealing.

But it's up to the provincial and municipal governments of the Maritimes to propose a $1 billion transportation project. If they did, I can't see the Feds saying no. Other than Alto, the Feds have never spearheaded a transportation project from scratch, at least in my lifetime. The approach has always been that municipal or provincial governments champion a project and do the planning work and, at the eleventh hour, the Feds kick in funding to get the project underway.

The last organization I would ever count on to lead a new rail project is VIA. I don't even know if VIA has a team that plans new projects or routes. VIA's mandate seemingly is to freeze passenger rail services exactly as they were in 1978, maybe with updated equipment and marketing.

You don't even have to go to forgotten parts of the country like the Maritimes to see this. Here in the Centre of the Universe, VIA runs exactly one train a day from Toronto to Kitchener-London-Sarnia. This is a city of 7 million connected to two cities that are Halifax-sized, 100 km apart from each other. The first stop this train makes leaving Union (or last stop before Union) is Malton, a minor GO train station in far north Mississauga that has few connections. They could choose to move that one stop west to Bramalea, which has many regional bus connections and is a stop for both express and local GO trains, or one stop east to Weston, which is on the Union-Pearson express and would allow people to easily connect to Pearson, but they continue stopping at Malton, probably because that's what CN did 50+ years ago when these areas were mostly undeveloped.

[J81]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Two trains per day is the bare minimum necessary to make a service at all convenient to use.

As for infrastructure, the CNR mainline from Halifax via Moncton to the Quebec border at Edmundston is a class A railway. The railway from Moncton to Saint John is also class A. Not surprising really. Both Halifax and SJ are port cities with container facilities, and, in SJs case, also bulk cargo as well (potash for example). Oil trains also take the Moncton/SJ route because of the Irving oil refinery down there.

The pronciple weak link for passenger rail in the region is the Bathurst sub (on the secondary CNR line from Miramichi to Bathurst in norther NB). This is in horrible condition since there is no freight traffic on this sub. Things are better west of Bathurst due to mining activity and the Port of Belledune.

Personally, I would be in favour of switching the route of the Ocean from the northern NB route to the CNR mainline via Edmundston. It is more direct and does not need to be upgraded. It goes through the wilderness in the centre of the province however, with no real potential for local train traffic. No worse than going through northern Ontario though.

There are a lot of inaccuracies in your post.

The Newcastle Subdivision runs from Pacific Junction to Campbellton. There is no Bathurst sub.

Yes there are long sections that are not maintained as well as the Napadogan sub and therefore have a slower speed limit. Things are not in fact better west of Bathurst either. In fact it is just as bad as it is between Rogersville and Bathurst. Currently it is 30mph track speed from mile 48 ( just west of Rogersville ) to mile 108 ( Bathurst ) and again 30mph from Irvco ( Belledune ) to Campbellton.

There is in fact freight moving everyday between Campbellton and Moncton on that line. Its mostly cement from Port Daniel QC and Biofuel for Belledune.

Switching the Ocean to the Napadogan sub will never happen unless a regional service is created to run between Campbellton and Halifax to replace the Ocean service on that line. All of the infrastructure is already in place on that side and with the return of the Gaspe service it could in theory connect with it in Matapedia. Id like to see it happen personally. The Ocean could leave Halifax at 4pm and be in Montreal the next morning at 9am. Then you could have a Halifax to Matapedia service to connect with the Gaspe service which will be a day train. But those are just dreams.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

But it's up to the provincial and municipal governments of the Maritimes to propose a $1 billion transportation project. If they did, I can't see the Feds saying no. Other than Alto, the Feds have never spearheaded a transportation project from scratch, at least in my lifetime. The approach has always been that municipal or provincial governments champion a project and do the planning work and, at the eleventh hour, the Feds kick in funding to get the project underway.

The last organization I would ever count on to lead a new rail project is VIA. I don't even know if VIA has a team that plans new projects or routes. VIA's mandate seemingly is to freeze passenger rail services exactly as they were in 1978, maybe with updated equipment and marketing.

You don't even have to go to forgotten parts of the country like the Maritimes to see this. Here in the Centre of the Universe, VIA runs exactly one train a day from Toronto to Kitchener-London-Sarnia. This is a city of 7 million connected to two cities that are Halifax-sized, 100 km apart from each other. The first stop this train makes leaving Union (or last stop before Union) is Malton, a minor GO train station in far north Mississauga that has few connections. They could choose to move that one stop west to Bramalea, which has many regional bus connections and is a stop for both express and local GO trains, or one stop east to Weston, which is on the Union-Pearson express and would allow people to easily connect to Pearson, but they continue stopping at Malton, probably because that's what CN did 50+ years ago when these areas were mostly undeveloped.

I agree with this. I meant to respond to the objection that the existing central VIA route from Halifax to Moncton is too sparse to support 1, 2, or 3 trains each way per day (i.e., 1993 service levels). I don't think it's too sparsely populated or demand is too low. The barrier is CN and a lack of direction from NS/NB. This is very different and could change with more political will, so it's good to get the public discussion right.

I do also think people underestimate the Maritimes a bit for rail by looking at city populations or relying on tropes or impressions from driving around NB highways or whatever. The Maritimes have a lot of small, older towns and the Moncton-Halifax route is a transportation corridor and hub for the wider region. This route is also very important for freight and needs capital investment for other reasons, so maybe they should be thinking of things like double track when they replace a rural railway bridge around northern NS, for example.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by J81

There are a lot of inaccuracies in your post.

Thanks for your input. I am not a railway insider (although my father worked for the CNR). That was a very long time ago.

I am surprised there is still some freight traffic between Bathurst and Newcastle. I was under the impression that freight traffic along this sub had collapsed completely and the CNR wanted to petition Transport Canada for route abandonment. The only thing preventing them was the fact that VIA was still using the trackage.

Regardless, the 30 km/hr speed limit on the involved section is an abomination. What self respecting passenger service would tolerate such poor conditions!

I sympathize with the residents of the north shore. I do know that there are many people up there who have traditionally relied on VIA to travel back and forth from Moncton.

Despite this, because the CNR mainline from Moncton to Edmundston is class A, this is the route that the Ocean should be using to get to Montreal. This would likely shave 4-6 hours off the journey from Halifax to Montreal

[ssiguy]

The biggest fish to fry is obviously Calgary to Edmonton and potentially extended to Banff. I think it should be the first priority along with better connections to London/Windsor/Sarnia.

Yes, there should be better service between Moncton & Halifax but the potential there is a fraction of what it would be between Calgary & Edmonton.

[Taeolas]

The CNR route does go through wilderness. But it is also within about 50km of Fredericton, so we could "get" Fredericton back on the PAX rail network easier with a new "Fredericton Junction" station up around McGivney (according to google maps) which isn't really a place, but it is on Route 8, so a middle of no-where station may work.

The bigger advantage for the CNR line is that it would go over the Salmon River Bridge near Grand Falls... the second longest trestle bridge in Canada. I'm sure pax trains over that would get a boost just for the experience, or at least the picture opportunities.

Sadly, doing that routing, while it would make sense, isn't likely to happen. It would be better to pressure CPR to maintain/upgrade the NB raillines Via uses (or force VIA to buy them outright maybe) so we can get the Ocean back up to highway speeds basically as a minimum.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The biggest fish to fry is obviously Calgary to Edmonton and potentially extended to Banff. I think it should be the first priority along with better connections to London/Windsor/Sarnia.

Yes, there should be better service between Moncton & Halifax but the potential there is a fraction of what it would be between Calgary & Edmonton.

This is not a valid perspective for a federal service in a geographically extensive country where service improvements have only a localized benefit, plus it's a false choice.

Westerners don't like it when people in Ontario and Quebec do it yet will reach for the same rhetorical framing when it's advantageous relative to Atlantic Canada. If Canada is to operate like a real country, Canadians will have to move past this type of thinking.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

The CNR route does go through wilderness. But it is also within about 50km of Fredericton, so we could "get" Fredericton back on the PAX rail network easier with a new "Fredericton Junction" station up around McGivney (according to google maps) which isn't really a place, but it is on Route 8, so a middle of no-where station may work.

The bigger advantage for the CNR line is that it would go over the Salmon River Bridge near Grand Falls... the second longest trestle bridge in Canada. I'm sure pax trains over that would get a boost just for the experience, or at least the picture opportunities.

Sadly, doing that routing, while it would make sense, isn't likely to happen. It would be better to pressure CPR to maintain/upgrade the NB raillines Via uses (or force VIA to buy them outright maybe) so we can get the Ocean back up to highway speeds basically as a minimum.

I am actually very familiar with that CNR mainline route through the wilderness of central NB. In the 1960s, my sister and brother in law lived in Centreville, NB, and my mother and I would take the train from PEI to go visit them (they would pick us up at Juniper Junction).

In 1967, My mother, my sister and I took the train to Montreal to go to Expo 67. I very clearly recall going over the Salmon River trestle. Very impressive. It felt like we were flying though the air.

Last year I made a special trip up to Grand Falls with my middle son to try and find the trestle. When we found it, there was coincidentally a long CNR freight train going over the bridge. It was great to see.

I took this photo:

[J81]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Thanks for your input. I am not a railway insider (although my father worked for the CNR). That was a very long time ago.

I am surprised there is still some freight traffic between Bathurst and Newcastle. I was under the impression that freight traffic along this sub had collapsed completely and the CNR wanted to petition Transport Canada for route abandonment. The only thing preventing them was the fact that VIA was still using the trackage.

Regardless, the 30 km/hr speed limit on the involved section is an abomination. What self respecting passenger service would tolerate such poor conditions!

I sympathize with the residents of the north shore. I do know that there are many people up there who have traditionally relied on VIA to travel back and forth from Moncton.

Despite this, because the CNR mainline from Moncton to Edmundston is class A, this is the route that the Ocean should be using to get to Montreal. This would likely shave 4-6 hours off the journey from Halifax to Montreal

I realize that so I thought I would provide some insight since I have first hand knowledge.

It is true though that CN applied to abandon the line between Bathurst and Miramichi 10-12 years ago and VIA as well as the federal and provincial governments paid CN to keep the line open and perform maintenance on sections. More recently however, CN management has been more inclined to utilize this asset and grow business enough to actually justify the cost of maintaining it to a minimum level.

I would say that the traffic levels have steadily improved since the winter which I believe has encouraged CN to fix some of the long term temporary speed restrictions. There is still a long way to go and i dont think it will ever get better than the 30mph speed limit currently in place along the majority of the sub.

[casper]

Rail cars are based on the Alstom Adessia series. They now have a videos that give a feel for some of the car design....

https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-ne...t-renew-rail-canadas-long-distance-fleet

[kwoldtimer]

Terrific. Here's hoping they'll be well-built and delivered on time.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Thanks for your input. I am not a railway insider (although my father worked for the CNR). That was a very long time ago.

My father worked for the CNR as well (he's long gone now), and had numerous weeks over several years that he spent in Moncton on railway business. I wonder if they ever met.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

My father worked for the CNR as well (he's long gone now), and had numerous weeks over several years that he spent in Moncton on railway business. I wonder if they ever met.

My father worked with CNR on PEI (back when the island had a railway). He never worked on the mainland.

My mother and I (when we travelled) always took the train (we had passes because of my father). This was in the pre-VIA era. Passenger service on PEI meant slapping a passenger car onto the back end of a freight train. The ferries crossing the strait at Borden were rail ferries. The cars would be shunted onto the ferry on the island end, and we would get a new locomotive at Cape Tormentine. We would make connections to the CNR mainline at either Amherst or Moncton. I recall once (maybe 1967) when we made connections in Moncton, that there were FOUR passenger trains at the station at the same time to make connections. Now Moncton has 3x weekly VIA service to Montreal and Halifax.

I'm starting to sound ancient.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by casper

Rail cars are based on the Alstom Adessia series. They now have a videos that give a feel for some of the car design....

https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-ne...t-renew-rail-canadas-long-distance-fleet

Thanks for this. The page and press release also provide some new information. Specifically, the in-service support period will be 15 years (presumably with options to extend) and is valued at $700 million CAD. The full-up cost of the carriages is $4 billion CAD. Straight math puts that at about 12.7 million per carriage, inclusive of the premium we're eating to have Alstom stand up a domestic engineering program to adapt the base model to VIA specs for eight types of carriage and tool up for domestic production and final assembly.

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by someone123

This is not a valid perspective for a federal service in a geographically extensive country where service improvements have only a localized benefit, plus it's a false choice.

Westerners don't like it when people in Ontario and Quebec do it yet will reach for the same rhetorical framing when it's advantageous relative to Atlantic Canada. If Canada is to operate like a real country, Canadians will have to move past this type of thinking.

I don't understand your point nor your logic.

I clearly stated that there should be better service between Moncton & Halifax. What I stated is that the first PRIORITY should be Calgary & Edmonton being due to having a catchment area more than 5X the size and already having absolutely no rail between them.

When deciding where to spend scarce infrastructure funds, you have to set priorities to get the most bang for your buck and serve the greatest number of people. You don't twin a highway carrying 5,000 vehicles a day before you twin the one carrying 25,000 and the same logic applies to rail.