PHILADELPHIA-CAMDEN-WILMINGTON-ATLANTIC CITY-READING | Metro Development Thread

[bridge25]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

Hilarious that the regular suburb bashers around here who call them soulless, boring, full of NIMBYs, dull, etc., etc., are now supporting they are so amazing and unique that they should be commanding these prices. Needless to say if I would come on here and say the opposite of what I am saying now and they are amazing and wonderful the same characters would be coming at me and saying they are not and I'm, "On another planet."

I was talking about the 'burbs and metro area, not the city. The problem is the city is just not an option for a lot of people for various reasons so the bargains aren't going to be on the radars. Also, we can make a few comparisons to the rest of the country but our situation is unique as well:

- We have had a supply problem for a while and even more so now.
- PA just does not function like other states do.
- The Philly area being on the map like this is relatively new.
- We were not functioning well with the people and growth we had, throw more on top of it with no plan and it's a problem.


Right, hence why I have been saying "tipping point" for pages now.

Nah you can look up prices if you are curious (which are rapidly cooling here btw so maybe just maybe I am on to something). My opinion still stands that places like Conshy, etc. being as high as they have become is wild to me and the cost to value is just not there, anyone not familiar with these areas who moves in thinking as such are going to find this over time unless some big changes happen along with all of this.

Cost to value is a completely subjective measure you have tweaked to fit your narrative. And yes, you're a negadelphian!

The average listing price for homes currently on the market in Conshohocken is $544,500. Conshohocken is literally home to Cencora, which is #10 on the Fortune 500 list. You are surprised there happens to be some million dollar listings in that town? A town with multiple corporate HQs plus a top 10 fortune 500 with an average listing price of $544k?!? That seems like a pretty damn good value to me, compared to the rest of the U.S.

I'll apply my own subjective measure as I recently was looking at real estate in Charlotte, NC. Simple 3bd/2ba ranchers with zero charm in desirable, in-town neighborhoods go for north of 750k these days. Those sunbelt cities have lost their "value" long ago. Meanwhile, you can get a comparable 3bd/2ba rowhouse for 400k in Fishtown, one of the desirable urban neighborhoods in the U.S.

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by bridge25

Cost to value is a completely subjective measure you have tweaked to fit your narrative. And yes, you're a negadelphian!

Yes, the term used for anyone who doesn't think every single thing here is er ma gersh sooo awesome, brah!

The average listing price for homes currently on the market in Conshohocken is $544,500. Conshohocken is literally home to Cencora, which is #10 on the Fortune 500 list. You are surprised there happens to be some million dollar listings in that town? A town with multiple corporate HQs plus a top 10 fortune 500 with an average listing price of $544k?!? That seems like a pretty damn good value to me, compared to the rest of the U.S.

Cool, glad you think so and you should probably move there...and let me know how exciting you found it to be after a year or so too.

I'll apply my own subjective measure as I recently was looking at real estate in Charlotte, NC. Simple 3bd/2ba ranchers with zero charm in desirable, in-town neighborhoods go for north of 750k these days. Those sunbelt cities have lost their "value" long ago. Meanwhile, you can get a comparable 3bd/2ba rowhouse for 400k in Fishtown, one of the desirable urban neighborhoods in the U.S.

Nah this is a completely subjective measure that you have tweaked to fit your narrative. But guess what? I am still not going to call you a negla-Charlotten.

Great, grand, wonderful re: Fishtown, but a lot of people can't or won't live there for one reason or another and I was focused on the 'burbs.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

Great, grand, wonderful re: Fishtown, but a lot of people can't or won't live there for one reason or another and I was focused on the 'burbs.

I think that's the point. You keep on referring to inner ring suburbs as a point of comparison (though don't provide any). And the point we're making is that there is no such thing as an inner ring suburb in the sunbelt. The inner ring suburbs (in the South) are actually IN their respective cities and they ARE WAY MORE EXPENSIVE than comprable inner ring suburbs (outside, or even inside of the city) here.

If you're in a suburb outside of Charlotte you're effectively in what would be an exurb here. Which was my initial point. You can have that here too. Just move further out.

[Urbanthusiat]

I don’t think the “city vs. suburbs” is the right way to look at things. The area is one area, a contiguous metropolitan area, and while there is some big differences between certain parts of the MSA compared to other parts of the MSA (e.g. K&A vs Gladwynne just as an extreme example), they all function together. I don’t think it’s appropriate to think of it as the city competing with the burbs. They don’t exist in a vacuum. Because of our economic system, gladwynne couldn’t exist without K&A, King of Prussia couldn’t exist without Norristown, Media couldn’t exist without Ridley Park… and none of those areas could exist without Center City Philadelphia. I don’t think the fact the suburbs have some nicer homes is proof that the city is terrible, quite the opposite, it’s proof that the city has a strong economy and can support those kinds of nice areas. It’s all one ecosystem. Municipal borders are arbitrary. There are some meaningful differences based on municipal boundaries but they aren’t that important in the grand scheme of things. The fact that most of the businesses in bala cynwyd are on the Montco side of City ave matters marginally but the fact those businesses exist is a credit to the city and the whole metro area, not one or the other. MSA is really the only appropriate way to look at cities as it sort of equalizes regions. For example, in most cases it doesn’t make sense to compare just the city of Philadelphia to just the city of Boston because Philly is 134 square miles and 1.6 million people while the city of Boston is just 48 square miles and 700k people. But the metro areas are similar sizes. While the Boston area is overall safer, the city of Philadelphia gets crime in Kensington counted against it while crime in let’s say Revere MA, doesn’t get counted against Boston bc it’s a different municipality, even though it’s the same distance from downtown Boston as K&A is to center city Philly. Idk, I’m ranting, all in all I feel the city vs suburb debate is pointless - it’s all one thing.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat

I don’t think the “city vs. suburbs” is the right way to look at things. The area is one area, a contiguous metropolitan area, and while there is some big differences between certain parts of the MSA compared to other parts of the MSA (e.g. K&A vs Gladwynne just as an extreme example), they all function together. I don’t think it’s appropriate to think of it as the city competing with the burbs. They don’t exist in a vacuum. Because of our economic system, gladwynne couldn’t exist without K&A, King of Prussia couldn’t exist without Norristown, Media couldn’t exist without Ridley Park… and none of those areas could exist without Center City Philadelphia. I don’t think the fact the suburbs have some nicer homes is proof that the city is terrible, quite the opposite, it’s proof that the city has a strong economy and can support those kinds of nice areas. It’s all one ecosystem. Municipal borders are arbitrary. There are some meaningful differences based on municipal boundaries but they aren’t that important in the grand scheme of things. The fact that most of the businesses in bala cynwyd are on the Montco side of City ave matters marginally but the fact those businesses exist is a credit to the city and the whole metro area, not one or the other. MSA is really the only appropriate way to look at cities as it sort of equalizes regions. For example, in most cases it doesn’t make sense to compare just the city of Philadelphia to just the city of Boston because Philly is 134 square miles and 1.6 million people while the city of Boston is just 48 square miles and 700k people. But the metro areas are similar sizes. While the Boston area is overall safer, the city of Philadelphia gets crime in Kensington counted against it while crime in let’s say Revere MA, doesn’t get counted against Boston bc it’s a different municipality, even though it’s the same distance from downtown Boston as K&A is to center city Philly. Idk, I’m ranting, all in all I feel the city vs suburb debate is pointless - it’s all one thing.

We're saying the same thing. Which is my point that an "inner ring" suburb in Philadelphia would actually be inside city limits in the sunbelt. Those cities are massive sprawling municipalities so what we perceive as their suburbs are actually exurbs and what they perceive as in town would actually be considered inner ring here.

That's all.

[EastSideHBG]

Municipal borders are arbitrary. There are some meaningful differences based on municipal boundaries but they aren’t that important in the grand scheme of things.

I don't agree with this part and in the 'burbs this arbitrary line is everything, as one side of the street is Norristown SD and the other is PWM SD so which one is going to have the bigger draw? This is a big issue in this state that needs to be focused on. There have been some heated real estate discussions and biddings in our metro because of one area's SD vs another's and they are mere blocks from each other, it's a poor setup that is driving some of this craziness.

Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat

I don’t think the “city vs. suburbs” is the right way to look at things. The area is one area, a contiguous metropolitan area, and while there is some big differences between certain parts of the MSA compared to other parts of the MSA (e.g. K&A vs Gladwynne just as an extreme example), they all function together. I don’t think it’s appropriate to think of it as the city competing with the burbs. They don’t exist in a vacuum. Because of our economic system, gladwynne couldn’t exist without K&A, King of Prussia couldn’t exist without Norristown, Media couldn’t exist without Ridley Park… and none of those areas could exist without Center City Philadelphia. I don’t think the fact the suburbs have some nicer homes is proof that the city is terrible, quite the opposite, it’s proof that the city has a strong economy and can support those kinds of nice areas. It’s all one ecosystem. Municipal borders are arbitrary. There are some meaningful differences based on municipal boundaries but they aren’t that important in the grand scheme of things. The fact that most of the businesses in bala cynwyd are on the Montco side of City ave matters marginally but the fact those businesses exist is a credit to the city and the whole metro area, not one or the other. MSA is really the only appropriate way to look at cities as it sort of equalizes regions. For example, in most cases it doesn’t make sense to compare just the city of Philadelphia to just the city of Boston because Philly is 134 square miles and 1.6 million people while the city of Boston is just 48 square miles and 700k people. But the metro areas are similar sizes. While the Boston area is overall safer, the city of Philadelphia gets crime in Kensington counted against it while crime in let’s say Revere MA, doesn’t get counted against Boston bc it’s a different municipality, even though it’s the same distance from downtown Boston as K&A is to center city Philly. Idk, I’m ranting, all in all I feel the city vs suburb debate is pointless - it’s all one thing.

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

We're saying the same thing. Which is my point that an "inner ring" suburb in Philadelphia would actually be inside city limits in the sunbelt. Those cities are massive sprawling municipalities so what we perceive as their suburbs are actually exurbs and what they perceive as in town would actually be considered inner ring here.

That's all.

I am with you both on the surface but the issue becomes, and what I am speaking to, is these submarkets are wildly different (and IMO jumping the shark a bit now) so hard to compare as you start to peel layers back. There was another article about this that sums it up:

But, in some submarkets, especially in Philadelphia’s collar counties, “there’s so much demand that certain houses are just going to fly off the shelves,” said Beiser, who works in Philadelphia and surrounding areas.

“I have some buyers in the suburbs, and they‘ve kind of stopped looking because it’s too challenging,” she said.
https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate/hou...ends-buyers-sellers-supply-20260708.html

So I am not bashing the area by any means and understand why people want to live here but think there is an "irrational exuberance" right now (and a lot of it has to do with the goofy PA setup) and as the dust settles the other pieces needed to maintain this aren't going to be there without changes being made...this trend may just be a blip and won't be sustained without also X, Y, Z growing and improving along with it and I am not holding my breath because I am seeing little to no movement in these areas (infrastructure, more regional discussions, etc.).

Good discussion and I am looking forward to seeing how this progresses as the years march on.

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

I am with you both on the surface but the issue becomes, and what I am speaking to, is these submarkets are wildly different (and IMO jumping the shark a bit now) so hard to compare as you start to peel layers back. There was another article about this that sums it up:

But, in some submarkets, especially in Philadelphia’s collar counties, “there’s so much demand that certain houses are just going to fly off the shelves,” said Beiser, who works in Philadelphia and surrounding areas.

“I have some buyers in the suburbs, and they‘ve kind of stopped looking because it’s too challenging,” she said.
https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate/hou...ends-buyers-sellers-supply-20260708.html

Without diving back into the details of this discussion, just want to say, don't ever believe anything a real estate agent says. They want homes to sell as quickly as possible for as much as possible. This goes for buyer's agents as well. They're always going to want you to think the market is scorching.

[PHLtoNYC]

An interesting proposal...

I would like to see a higher-end hotel in the KoP market, like a top-tier Marriott or Hilton brand, similar to the options around Tyson's... I don't know how / if that would fit into this concept.

King of Prussia stadium for pro sports teams is centerpiece of $200M proposal
https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia...ussia-upper-merion-stadium-district.html

Upper Merion Township wants to develop a $200 million entertainment district in King of Prussia with a stadium for professional baseball and soccer teams, but the project hinges on state funding to move forward.

Officials are eyeing a 16.8-acre site at the Moore Park business complex on 1st Avenue for the Montgomery County project, according to an application Upper Merion Township filed with the state seeking funding.

The preliminary proposal outlined in the filing calls for a mixed-use district anchored by a stadium with capacity for more than 7,500 people.

[PHLtoNYC]

Here's an idea: Stop fighting tooth and nail against redeveloping land that's already developed.

The former Franklin Mint site could have accommodated hundreds more housing units. The Promenade at Granite Run has room for additional development. The vacant State Farm office at Routes 1 & 202 is another prime redevelopment opportunity. There are countless aging office parks, shopping centers, and parking lots in Delco that could be repurposed.

Instead, many people oppose redeveloping these sites while also insisting we preserve open space. There has to be a level of compromise.

I'm actually an advocate for protecting genuine open space, woods, farmland, and other natural areas. But I'll never understand the opposition to turning an obsolete mall, an empty office complex, or acres of parking lots into housing. That's exactly where new housing belongs. It adds inventory while reusing land that's already been developed instead of consuming more open space.

The median sale price of a home in Delco has ballooned to $420k...

Delaware County $120M open space referendum sparks housing development concerns
https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia...y-open-space-referendum-delco-woods.html

[UrbanRevival]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

I'm actually an advocate for protecting genuine open space, woods, farmland, and other natural areas. But I'll never understand the opposition to turning an obsolete mall, an empty office complex, or acres of parking lots into housing. That's exactly where new housing belongs. It adds inventory while reusing land that's already been developed instead of consuming more open space.

It's absolutely ridiculous. Also, what do folks think happens when these defunct commercial properties begin to lose taxable value? I guess they're fine with a huge jump in residential property taxes to compensate for lost revenue.

[mja]

Too many people just don't want more people living next to them. Housing affordability crisis in a nutshell.

[PHLtoNYC]

Developer buys Freddy Hill Farms complex in Lansdale for $26M with plans for 210 homes

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia...cquires-freddy-hill-farms-210-units.html

Pinnacle Realty Development Company has acquired about 130 acres in Lansdale and plans to build 210 houses on the site previously home to Freddy Hill Farms and Freddy's Family Fun Center.

Under Pinnacle's plan, the site will be developed into 50 carriage homes, 87 single-family homes on small lots and 73 single-family homes on large lots.

The firm is working with Fort Washington-based homebuilding giant Toll Brothers on the community.

[PHLtoNYC]

Another mall bites the dust.

Abrams reveals plan to demolish most of Concord Mall for 'elite' retail redevelopment
https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia...all-wilmington-abrams-redevelopment.html

Abrams Realty’s plans call for razing 846,896 square feet of the mall to eliminate its interior and the 179,146-square-foot space that houses Macy’s. The two-story Boscov’s department store and two-story former Sears building will both remain, according to the submitted plans.

[PHLtoNYC]

More homes.

D.R. Horton advancing plan to build 106 homes on Quakertown School District land
https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia...town-schools-dr-horton-bucks-county.html

D.R. Horton is moving through the approval process to build 106 single-family homes on land it is under agreement to acquire from the Quakertown Community School District, county filings show.

The new community would be set across 127 acres in Milford, just off of Route 309. The Arlington, Texas-based homebuilding giant is calling the Bucks County project Brookfield Estates.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

Here's an idea: Stop fighting tooth and nail against redeveloping land that's already developed.

The former Franklin Mint site could have accommodated hundreds more housing units. The Promenade at Granite Run has room for additional development. The vacant State Farm office at Routes 1 & 202 is another prime redevelopment opportunity. There are countless aging office parks, shopping centers, and parking lots in Delco that could be repurposed.

Instead, many people oppose redeveloping these sites while also insisting we preserve open space. There has to be a level of compromise.

I'm actually an advocate for protecting genuine open space, woods, farmland, and other natural areas. But I'll never understand the opposition to turning an obsolete mall, an empty office complex, or acres of parking lots into housing. That's exactly where new housing belongs. It adds inventory while reusing land that's already been developed instead of consuming more open space.

The median sale price of a home in Delco has ballooned to $420k...

Delaware County $120M open space referendum sparks housing development concerns
https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia...y-open-space-referendum-delco-woods.html

The Franklin Mint site has got to be the biggest fail of all time. I think what was built is lovely, but it's more about what was left out. I mean, the township approved the housing we see there today but nixed what would have been a mixed use strip in the center of it with ground floor retail for, checks notes ****A WAREHOUSE****. You really gotta love boomers. Their marbles are lost.

On a positive note, the now current residents are furious about the proposed warehouse at what would be the literal entrance to their neighborhood and are now fighting it. Because why wouldn't they be.

[PHLtoNYC]

Willow Grove Park Mall is actually doing relatively well, but it's still surrounded by a sea of underused parking, and that dinosaur of a former Kmart/At Home space.

This could be a real opportunity for the new owner to line portions of the mall perimeter with housing and better stitch the property into downtown Willow Grove and the SEPTA station. I'd concentrate most of the development toward the northeast side of the mall along Moreland and Easton Roads, potentially extending toward Davisville Road, while keeping it less intrusive to the established residential neighborhoods on the opposite side.

You could essentially turn all that wasted asphalt into a mixed-use extension of Willow Grove while keeping the successful portions of the mall intact. Housing, retail, better pedestrian connections, and transit literally right there.

Anyway, I doubt the buyer has that kind of vision, and even if they did, I'm sure the inevitable legal battles would ensue...

But it's a pretty rare opportunity to have a large mall property sitting immediately adjacent to some form of a "downtown" (or at least the bones of one) and a SEPTA station.

New York buyers put Willow Grove Park Mall under contract
https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia...grove-park-mall-sale-under-contract.html

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

This could be a real opportunity for the new owner to line portions of the mall perimeter with housing and better stitch the property into downtown Willow Grove and the SEPTA station. I'd concentrate most of the development toward the northeast side of the mall along Moreland and Easton Roads, potentially extending toward Davisville Road, while keeping it less intrusive to the established residential neighborhoods on the opposite side...

...But it's a pretty rare opportunity to have a large mall property sitting immediately adjacent to some form of a "downtown" (or at least the bones of one) and a SEPTA station.

There are unfortunately plans to move the station further north in the wooded area near the skating rink, which means it'd be farther from the mall.

What really needs to happen no matter what is that the intersection between Davisville, PA-611, and the Warminster Line needs to be reconfigured. In a perfect world it'd even be grade-separated.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

There are unfortunately plans to move the station further north in the wooded area near the skating rink, which means it'd be farther from the mall.

What really needs to happen no matter what is that the intersection between Davisville, PA-611, and the Warminster Line needs to be reconfigured. In a perfect world it'd even be grade-separated.

Womp womp...

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

Anyway, I doubt the buyer has that kind of vision, and even if they did, I'm sure the inevitable legal battles would ensue...

But it's a pretty rare opportunity to have a large mall property sitting immediately adjacent to some form of a "downtown" (or at least the bones of one) and a SEPTA station.

New York buyers put Willow Grove Park Mall under contract
https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia...grove-park-mall-sale-under-contract.html

I dunno. That entire set of towns along 611 is densifying nicely. I go up there periodically to get my car serviced at a mechanic that specializes in German Cars and I'm always impressed by the incremental urbanist change that's happening. Much more street grade infill than in other suburbs for sure.