Kitchener-Waterloo: a microcosm of modern Canada?

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

How would one rank order the relative health/vibrancy of the following "Middle Ranking" Ontario city downtowns (for the following CMAs, roughly 450K-850K populations)? Which ones are revitalizing vs. declining?

Alphabetized:

Hamilton
KWC*
London
St. Catharines-Niagara
Windsor

*does it even make sense to have this as one (versus several) downtowns?

London is suffering from a perfect storm of (a) economic decline (thanks to Tronald Dump for decimating manufacturing, and the severely reduced caps on foreign students), (b) surge in homelessness and junkies (with attendant facilities to serve these people), (c) a parasitic landlord by the name of Farhi, who owns most of the core, and uses a "buy-hold-rot" strategy.

I feel Windsor should be ranked highest of these cities considering you have to factor in the presence of Detroit. The Detroit skyline is part of the DT vibe of Windsor, and offers world class museums, entertainment, and professional sports a quick bus ride or car drive away. I guess the same can basically be said for Hamilton and Toronto.

It seems Windsor is slept on by many Ontarians and Canadians in general. However, it’s sure not slept on by 18-20 year old college students north of the border… although, with how much less the younger generations drink, maybe the casino, bars, and clubs of downtown Windsor have struggled.

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

If I had to rank these Ontario downtowns in terms of vibrancy, I'd go:

1. Hamilton
2. London - although it has really declined, Richmond St. N is still healthy and vibrant. Dundas St. East is becoming like a little DTES, though.
3. Kitchener (it's improved, but it's coming off a low base and it still has some issues)

St. Catharines' downtown is getting better but it's still a small place that feels like it's Barrie-sized, and I haven't been to downtown Windsor in over 20 years, so I can't really comment.

---

The thing with Ontario's downtowns is that they really aren't a function of metro size, or even historical size.

Ontario metros in order of population would go:

Toronto
Ottawa
Hamilton
KWC
London
Windsor
St. Catharines

But if I were to rank Ontario downtowns in terms of how interesting they are, I'd go:

Toronto
Ottawa
Kingston
North York Centre (not sure if this counts as a downtown)
Hamilton
Stratford
Guelph
...
or something like that

That seems wild, but I think you're probably right. I haven't been to every major city in Ontario, but I think Kingston probably has the third best (healthiest, most vibrant, most interesting) inner city in the province.

The secret is starting to get out. And if high speed rail comes to the area, look out.

[Docere]

Kingston's vibrant downtown doesn't seem to be that much of a secret. It's long been a downtown that's overperformed for a city of its size.

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by Docere

Kingston's vibrant downtown doesn't seem to be that much of a secret. It's long been a downtown that's overperformed for a city of its size.

You may be right. I'm mostly just boosting my adopted hometown (long-time posters will remember that I'm a seldom-posting OG Calgary hometown-homer).

I do think downtown Kingston is poised for something good.

[Innsertnamehere]

Kingston's downtown is very healthy for it's size and is generally cleaner than Hamilton, but Hamilton undoubtedly has higher overall activity levels. It's really not even close between the two...

Kingston outperforms many comparable cities like Oshawa, Peterborough, Brantford, etc. by a country mile though.

The only really "big cities" in Ontario with consistent downtown pedestrian traffic and where the downtowns stretch for significant distances with major employment hubs, etc. are really Toronto, Ottawa, and maybe Hamilton.

Kitchener has grown a lot closer to that but started from a much lower level. London is just not all that healthy. Kingston is just too small - it sort of reminds me of Guelph which is a fairly healthy downtown but small overall..

North York Centre is an unfair comparison to me as it's boosted by being part of the wider city.

To me the list goes in terms of vibrancy:

1.Toronto
.
.
. (massive gap)
.
.
2. Ottawa
. (smaller gap)
3. Hamilton
4. Kitchener
5. London
6. Kingston
7. Niagara Falls
8. Windsor

.
.
.
The rest (guelph, sudbury, peterborough, St Catharines, etc.) are generally too small to really feel like a real city downtown to me and still generally feel like large towns.

There is also the tourist town type places (Stratford, Bellevile, Elora, Niagara on the Lake, etc.) which are very vibrant but simply too small.

Now if we wanted to filter it through a framework of "healthy" downtowns, the list would change with Hamilton and London generally dropping a few tiers. Kitchener's homelessness problem is generally overblown though from my experience, it's there, but the downtown generally feels clean and healthy.. just smaller than London or Hamilton.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

To me the list goes in terms of vibrancy:

1.Toronto
.
.
. (massive gap)
.
.
2. Ottawa
. (smaller gap)
3. Hamilton
4. Kitchener
5. London
6. Kingston
7. Niagara Falls
8. Windsor

I would agree with this list if the criterion were "feels like a big city". I was originally thinking of my list in terms of visitor interest. Hamilton has big city things like office towers, a big arena, a lot of public transit nodes, etc. but it's less "interesting" to an outside visitor than Kingston, in my opinion, which has a better setting (being on a waterfront), more unique historic buildings, and landmarks.

The other thing that Kingston has that few Ontario cities have (or actually, to be fair, few Canadian cities no matter where) is a central square: a public space with a recognizable landmark that is the clear centre of town. I think that alone pushes it over the edge in terms of interest above a place like Hamilton.

When I think about what makes a European city of even 50,000 worth a visit, it's usually the central square. People naturally gravitate to it, and so there's a bit of a virtuous circle where the best buildings, and the activities that generate the most pedestrian activity or revenue/ft2 congregate around it and naturally imbue it with life. You don't really get that when your downtown is just a long strip along a main street with no clear node.

[Innsertnamehere]

I mean Hamilton has Gore Park which acts somewhat similarly.

The downtown demographics of Hamilton sort of limit it's utility as that of course.. with most "middle class" activity instead happening on James North and Locke Street.

I do think Hamilton is generally underrated from a tourism perspective, given the arena now and general amenities in the wider city. Downtown Hamilton doesn't have quite the same charm as Kingston, but has other things.

Kitchener actually has the healthiest downtown out of the "middle 3" cities I would say in terms of demographics, and Kitchener City Hall's square provides that sort of "central place" you describe. It's also grown an absolute tonne in the last 5 years with intensification, there is a much larger downtown population than just 5 years ago. 5-10 years ago I honestly would have lumped it with Guelph as a city that really feels more like a town, but less so today. It feels increasingly busy and urban these days, and will continue to grow in that way with more units coming online and the new central GO station getting built.

KWC's economy is also interesting in how it can represent the Canadian "average" - it's mix of manufacturing and white-collar work probably more accurately reflects the wider Canadian average than somewhere like Hamilton or London which don't have that same base of white-collar work to the same extent. There is an almost shocking difference in private-sector office work between Kitchener and Hamilton these days.. Hamilton has remarkably little in it's city boundaries (there is more in Burlington), with what little there is mostly in Waterdown. There are very few significant private-sector employers left in Downtown Hamilton today.

[kwoldtimer]

To note: The CMA is "KCW", not "KWC". KW, of course, is still KW.

[Docere]

^ Well I guess that "branding" hasn't really taken off has it?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Docere

^ Well I guess that "branding" hasn't really taken off has it?

KW is pretty deeply entrenched. I used to like the "Twin Cities", but it doesn't really work anymore, and the "Triplet Cities" just doesn't resonate.

[someone123]

Some of the Southern Ontario metros basically need disclaimers too whereas Kingston or London are more classic metro areas with a more clearly-defined hinterland. Hamilton's got Burlington and significant GTA commuters. Kitchener is really part of a larger polycentric urban region. Downtown Kitchener is not to its CMA what downtown Kingston (with adjacent Queens) is to its CMA. Oshawa isn't really much of a metro area of its own at all. St. Catharines again, not really a classic metro with that town at its core. Downtown St. Catharines isn't even the most visited part of the CMA.

[Blitz]

SWO has always been a microcosm and that's why London and Windsor are often test markets. Over the past 10 years or so, Kitchener has become too absorbed into the GTA for it to be considered hardcore SWO.

As for downtowns, you can't have a discussion about downtown London without mentioning Farhi and the harm he has done and continues to do. Downtown Windsor was hurt by 9/11's passport requirement more than it was hurt by the pandemic or anything else. Both of them are on the upswing now but there's a ways to go.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by someone123

Some of the Southern Ontario metros basically need disclaimers too whereas Kingston or London are more classic metro areas with a more clearly-defined hinterland. Hamilton's got Burlington and significant GTA commuters. Kitchener is really part of a larger polycentric urban region. Downtown Kitchener is not to its CMA what downtown Kingston (with adjacent Queens) is to its CMA. Oshawa isn't really much of a metro area of its own at all. St. Catharines again, not really a classic metro with that town at its core. Downtown St. Catharines isn't even the most visited part of the CMA.

Indeed, of the sub-1 million metropolitan centers, London is a relatively contained regional center, Hamilton is unusual in that it sort of like a "Buffalo" if it were embedded in the GTA, and Waterloo Region is a rather unusual polycentric area that's hard to draw a comparison to.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

It used to be, decades ago. I wonder whether the K-W numbers are all that different from those of London or Guelph?

Here's Guelph CMA for comparison:

Detached dwelling 53.5%
Average income $58,050
Median household income $97,000
Top half of income distribution 57.5%
Top 10% of income distribution 12.1%
Visible minority 23.4%
Bachelor's degree or higher (25-64) 39.7%

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Blitz

SWO has always been a microcosm and that's why London and Windsor are often test markets. Over the past 10 years or so, Kitchener has become too absorbed into the GTA for it to be considered hardcore SWO.

As for downtowns, you can't have a discussion about downtown London without mentioning Farhi and the harm he has done and continues to do. Downtown Windsor was hurt by 9/11's passport requirement more than it was hurt by the pandemic or anything else. Both of them are on the upswing now but there's a ways to go.

Hasn't Farhi been buying up chunks of downtown Windsor, now that he owns London?

London's Shmuel Farhi details $300M in downtown Windsor developments

Don't let him ruin Windsor like he ruined London.

[Blitz]

Yes, but he actually builds stuff in Windsor so he isn't seen as a villain there. He has built multiple apartment buildings, a residential subdivision, and completely gutted and renovated three downtown hotels and a downtown parking garage.

He claims that Windsor City Hall is easier to work with than London City Hall but maybe he's just burned too many bridges in London.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Hasn't Farhi been buying up chunks of downtown Windsor, now that he owns London?

London's Shmuel Farhi details $300M in downtown Windsor developments

Don't let him ruin Windsor like he ruined London.

He sponsored by Nike or something? lol

[MolsonExport]

He is very often pictured with that stupid beret.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

He is very often pictured with that stupid beret.

At least get a Kangol 😅