Immigrant population of cities around the world

[Docere]

In a sense, yes, but they're kind of like City of London+City of Westminster.

ETA: To clarify, the data is generally provided for Greater Sydney and Greater Melbourne. But these are much larger areas than Greater London.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by nito

This map makes no sense, because the French statistical office does not report all the countries of immigration. Also, you confuse "country of birth" and "country of immigration". INSEE (French statistical office) publishes only country of immigration, which is a statistics encompassing fewer people than country of birth. In a nutshell, this is apples and oranges.

For example, the color for Laos and Vietnam are dubious here. Paris is a city with a very large Laotian community, but Laos is not reported by INSEE (one of the many oddities of INSEE). And as for the Vietnamese immigrants, many are not reported by INSEE because they were already French citizens in Vietnam, therefore their country of birth, not reported by INSEE, is Vietnam, and their country of immigration is... none, since they are not considered as immigrants due to being already French citizens in Vietnam, and therefore do not appear among the Vietnamese immigrants in INSEE stats.

And many African countries are not reported by INSEE either.

Originally Posted by nito

The Overseas Departments of France (French Guinea, Guadeloupe, Martinique and Reunion) shouldn’t have been included for Paris

And therefore conclude that Paris has almost no Caribbean community, which would be ridiculous! If Hong Kong was still a British colony, should we also not count the Hong Kongers in London? Should we not count the Puerto Ricans in New York?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by craigs

City propers? Are Melbourne and Sydney propers city?

The city proper of Melbourne extends over 38 km² and contains 149,600 people. The rest of the metro area is made up of dozens of independent cities.

The city proper of Sydney extends over 25 km² and contains 211,600 people. The rest of the metro area is made up of dozens of independent cities.

[Docere]

Land area:

Greater London 1569 sq km / 606 sq miles
New York City 778 sq km / 300 sq miles
New York Metro Area 15901 sq km / 6140 sq miles
Ile-de-France (Paris Region) 12012 sq km / 4638 sq miles
Greater Sydney 12367 sq km / 4775 sq miles
Toronto (city) 631 sq km / 243 sq miles
Greater Toronto Area 7123 sq km / 2750 sq miles

[Docere]

US foreign born figures include refugee applicants, those on student visas etc., but the Canadian figures I provided were immigrants only. Here are the corrected figures for Toronto (immigrants + non-permanent residents, but excluding Canadian citizens at birth).


Toronto Census Metropolitan Area (2021 Census):

Foreign born 3,112,840

Americas 445,970
Europe 572,515
Africa 193,140
Asia 1,892,325
Oceania 8,530

India 482,040
China 328,215
Philippines 220,175
Pakistan 131,770
Sri Lanka 101,065
Hong Kong 100,700
Jamaica 98,980
Iran 96,810
United Kingdom 88,570
Italy 87,875
Vietnam 66,565
Guyana 65,600
Portugal 65,335
South Korea 54,875
United States 54,340
Poland 51,085
Trinidad and Tobago 41,300
Bangladesh 39,415
Russia 35,495
Ukraine 35,170
Iraq 35,170
Nigeria 34,255
Afghanistan 28,035
Egypt 27,930
Brazil 23,795
Greece 23,785
Romania 23,185
Colombia 20,865
Mexico 20,800
Syria 19,460
Germany 19,175
Turkey 17,945
Taiwan 15,740
United Arab Emirates 15,590
Israel 15,245
Lebanon 14,830
Saudi Arabia 14,500
Ghana 14,380
South Africa 13,795
Ethiopia 13,720
Somalia 13,110
Albania 12,095
Serbia 12,055
Kenya 11,845
Ecuador 11,755
Croatia 11,095
El Salvador 10,955
Hungary 10,925
Tanzania 10,045
France 9,815
Venezuela 9,520
Bosnia and Herzegovina 9,485
Peru 9,125
Ireland 8,760
Malaysia 8,510
Japan 8,480
Nepal 8,240
St. Vincent and the Grenadines 8,235
Chile 7,655
Argentina 7,555
Eritrea 7,390
Barbados 7,370
Kuwait 7,055
Grenada 6,735
Jordan 6,535
Bulgaria 6,530
Mauritius 6,410
Netherlands 6,265
North Macedonia 6,175
Uganda 5,915
Cuba 5,885
Indonesia 5,650
Belarus 5,625

50000+: 16
20000+: 29
10000+: 49
5000+: 73

[streetscaper]

I have a naive question. Do any of these figures, from any country, include illegal immigrant estimates?

[Docere]

Montreal Census Metropolitan Area (2021 Census)

Foreign born 1,184,630

Americas 261,470
Europe 283,930
Africa 279,650
Asia 357,205

France 93,175
Haiti 88,690
Algeria 73,165
Morocco 64,950
China 58,655
India 45,995
Italy 42,500
Lebanon 40,045
Philippines 30,200
Vietnam 25,020
Romania 24,825
Syria 24,825
United States 24,545
Colombia 23,840
Iran 23,825
Mexico 20,920
Egypt 20,210
Tunisia 18,865
Cameroon 16,280
Greece 15,775
Portugal 14,680
Peru 13,140
Congo (DR) 13,060
Brazil 11,600
Pakistan 11,545
Sri Lanka 10,925
Russia 10,860
United Kingdom 10,540
El Salvador 10,530
Ivory Coast 10,030
Moldova 9,980
Bangladesh 9,755
Ukraine 8,865
Cambodia 8,510
Poland 8,480
Venezuela 8,325
Chile 8,090
Afghanistan 7,925
Turkey 7,590
Senegal 7,130
Mauritius 6,685
South Korea 6,640
Germany 6,465
Belgium 6,240
Bulgaria 5,795
Dominican Republic 5,735
Cuba 5,705
Guatemala 5,470
Hong Kong 5,035
Israel 5,000

# 50000+: 5
# 20000+: 17
# 10000+: 30
# 5000+: 50

[Docere]

Vancouver Census Metropolitan Area (2021 Census)

Foreign born 1,222,465

Americas 96,075
Europe 174,750
Africa 42,160
Asia 883,725
Oceania 25,530

China 223,625
India 191,720
Philippines 113,350
Hong Kong 77,780
United Kingdom 54,030
South Korea 50,980
Iran 50,445
Taiwan 40,165
United States 31,825
Vietnam 30,200
Mexico 16,320
Fiji 16,010
Japan 14,265
Brazil 12,550
Germany 12,275
Pakistan 11,825
Russia 10,130
Italy 9,730
South Africa 9,510
Poland 9,430
Malaysia 8,315
Ukraine 7,700
Ireland 7,395
Romania 7,395
Iraq 6,820
Australia 6,375
Afghanistan 6,165
Colombia 5,600
France 5,550
Indonesia 5,515
Sri Lanka 5,325
Netherlands 5,300
Singapore 5,085

# 50000+: 7
# 20000+: 10
# 10000+: 17
# 5000+: 33

[Docere]

# of foreign born communities >5000:

New York Metro Area 93
Greater London 90
Toronto Census Metropolitan Area 73
Los Angeles Metro Area 56
Greater Sydney 53
Washington Metro Area 53
Montreal Census Metropolitan Area 50
Greater Melbourne 48
Boston Metro Area 44
Chicago Metro Area 42
Miami Metro Area 41
Houston Metro Area 37
San Francisco Metro Area 34
Atlanta Metro Area 33
Dallas Metro Area 33
Vancouver Census Metropolitan Area 33
Seattle Metro Area 29
Philadelphia Metro Area 27

[muppet]

Why is Greater London (the city proper) up there being compared to metro counts for everyone else? 'Greater' London (a moniker first coined to distinguish it from The City of London, which is one square mile) doesn't even properly cover the urban area, let alone metro.

[nito]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

This map makes no sense, because the French statistical office does not report all the countries of immigration. Also, you confuse "country of birth" and "country of immigration". INSEE (French statistical office) publishes only country of immigration, which is a statistics encompassing fewer people than country of birth. In a nutshell, this is apples and oranges.

For example, the color for Laos and Vietnam are dubious here. Paris is a city with a very large Laotian community, but Laos is not reported by INSEE (one of the many oddities of INSEE). And as for the Vietnamese immigrants, many are not reported by INSEE because they were already French citizens in Vietnam, therefore their country of birth, not reported by INSEE, is Vietnam, and their country of immigration is... none, since they are not considered as immigrants due to being already French citizens in Vietnam, and therefore do not appear among the Vietnamese immigrants in INSEE stats.

And many African countries are not reported by INSEE either.


And therefore conclude that Paris has almost no Caribbean community, which would be ridiculous! If Hong Kong was still a British colony, should we also not count the Hong Kongers in London? Should we not count the Puerto Ricans in New York?

It is incredulous that a developed nation statistical agency deliberately manipulates or projects opacity over data transparency. It would cast into doubt any verification of all other data published by INSEE. I suspect the true reason INSEE doesn’t report the numbers for some countries is likely because the numbers are de minimis.

Those territories are overseas departments of the French Republic. How can they be foreign born if they are born in French territory? Puerto Rico is a part of the US.

Originally Posted by streetscaper

I have a naive question. Do any of these figures, from any country, include illegal immigrant estimates?

I doubt it as trying to capture demographic data relies upon information from legal residents. Were illegal residents to willingly provide information they would put their illegal residence at risk.

Originally Posted by muppet

Why is Greater London (the city proper) up there being compared to metro counts for everyone else? 'Greater' London (a moniker first coined to distinguish it from The City of London, which is one square mile) doesn't even properly cover the urban area, let alone metro.

I don’t think it makes too much of a difference, if anything it underlines the intense diversity of London.

[MolsonExport]

Never argue with New Brisavoine. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

[Docere]

The title of the thread really should be foreign born populations, not immigrant populations. Guess it's too late to change that.

The revisions to the Canadian cities interestingly result in no change in the number of countries on the list for Toronto. It does however increase the number for India by about 20% and adds significantly to the tally for Nigeria, Brazil and Mexico.

[Yuri]

São Paulo has 489,219 immigrants, over 4% of city's population. Bolivians (135 k), Chinese (33k), Haitians (26k) and Peruvians (cerca de 22k) are the largest groups. Source

They're heavily centered on the city centre. Where I live it's full of West Africans (many Muslims), Haitians, new-arrivals from Lebanon and Syria, Chinese are the most numerous. Koreans and Bolivians are heavily represented on other parts of city center.

Not counted on those stats are the old immigrants, all of them with Brazilian citizenship. There are still hundreds of thousands of old Portuguese, Italians, Lebanese, Japanese, etc. left on the city but they're dying out fast.

--------------------

Here another source, from the City Hall based on Federal Police numbers: 361,201 (2019), of which 75,282 Bolivians, 52,284 Portuguese (foreigners, not naturalized foreign born), 27,414 Chinese, 24,631 Japanese, etc.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by muppet

Why is Greater London (the city proper) up there being compared to metro counts for everyone else? 'Greater' London (a moniker first coined to distinguish it from The City of London, which is one square mile) doesn't even properly cover the urban area, let alone metro.

Because the ONS doesn't have a working unit for what would constitute a London metropolitan area. I think it would probably look like London and the surrounding home counties, a population of around 16 million. I should also note that these surrounding counties are still overwhelmingly "middle England" in their demographic (with some exceptions like Slough), so you're picking up the bulk of London's diversity by looking at Greater London alone.

Wikipedia has a running list of foreign born populations for cities around the world, but it has a lot of missing citations. For "London and the home counties" it suggests something in the 5.5 million-6 million range. However when I follow the links this is the total for London + South-East England + East of England.

[streetscaper]

Originally Posted by streetscaper

I have a naive question. Do any of these figures, from any country, include illegal immigrant estimates?

Originally Posted by nito

I doubt it as trying to capture demographic data relies upon information from legal residents. Were illegal residents to willingly provide information they would put their illegal residence at risk.

Yes, that's what I figured as well. That adds another large caveat for these numbers. The US is estimated to have significantly more illegal immigration than Canada or the UK for instance. So when considering the top 3 of Docere's list, New York likely has the most undercounted immigrant population, by far, if we agree with what AI says below:

The unauthorized immigrant population in New York City alone has generally been estimated at 500,000–700,000. Including the surrounding suburbs in northern New Jersey, Long Island, Westchester, Connecticut, and the Hudson Valley brings the metro estimate to roughly 900,000–1.2 million. Source


The Greater London Authority estimates 397,000 undocumented adults and children in London. Earlier media reports claiming 585,000 were later corrected because they misinterpreted the underlying research. Independent fact-checkers have noted that the higher figure overstated the estimate. Source Source


Canada is much harder to estimate. Canada does not publish official estimates of undocumented residents. Researchers generally distinguish between visa, overstayers, failed asylum claimants who remain, and people who entered legally but later lost status. Academic and advocacy estimates for all of Canada often range from 200,000 to 500,000 undocumented residents, although the uncertainty is substantial. Since the GTA contains roughly one-fifth of Canada's population but a disproportionately large share of newcomers, many demographers infer that around 100,000–300,000 undocumented residents likely live in the Toronto metropolitan area. This is an informed extrapolation rather than an official estimate. Source

[muppet]

Originally Posted by Docere

Because the ONS doesn't have a working unit for what would constitute a London metropolitan area. I think it would probably look like London and the surrounding home counties, a population of around 16 million. I should also note that these surrounding counties are still overwhelmingly "middle England" in their demographic (with some exceptions like Slough), so you're picking up the bulk of London's diversity by looking at Greater London alone.

Wikipedia has a running list of foreign born populations for cities around the world, but it has a lot of missing citations. For "London and the home counties" it suggests something in the 5.5 million-6 million range. However when I follow the links this is the total for London + South-East England + East of England.

Yep, but Home Counties alone (not even Southeast England) are 13.5% foreign born, or about an extra million. That's quite something, and we're only talking about communities as small as 5,000. I'm sure that would push many of the even smaller ones above that threshold.

[muppet]

Originally Posted by Yuri

São Paulo has 489,219 immigrants, over 4% of city's population. Bolivians (135 k), Chinese (33k), Haitians (26k) and Peruvians (cerca de 22k) are the largest groups. Source

They're heavily centered on the city centre. Where I live it's full of West Africans (many Muslims), Haitians, new-arrivals from Lebanon and Syria, Chinese are the most numerous. Koreans and Bolivians are heavily represented on other parts of city center.

Not counted on those stats are the old immigrants, all of them with Brazilian citizenship. There are still hundreds of thousands of old Portuguese, Italians, Lebanese, Japanese, etc. left on the city but they're dying out fast.

--------------------

Here another source, from the City Hall based on Federal Police numbers: 361,201 (2019), of which 75,282 Bolivians, 52,284 Portuguese (foreigners, not naturalized foreign born), 27,414 Chinese, 24,631 Japanese, etc.

I'm always surprised at the Arab ancestry of many Brazilians, that counts into the millions but is easily 'hidden' because outsiders assume them to be Brazilians of European or mixed ancestry. It's the largest disapora outside the Arab world.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by muppet

I'm always surprised at the Arab ancestry of many Brazilians, that counts into the millions but is easily 'hidden' because outsiders assume them to be Brazilians of European or mixed ancestry. It's the largest disapora outside the Arab world.

It’s indeed massive. It’s 7-8 million mostly Lebanese and they’re incredibly prominent on all aspects of Brazilian daily life: Alckmin (4x SP state governor and current vice president); Haddad (former mayor of SP and minister of economy), Temer (former president), Tebet (former senator and one of most prominent ministers of Lula), Maluf (former governor and mayor of SP), Jatene (one of the most famous Brazilian surgeons), Safra (banker) and many others.

[nito]

Originally Posted by streetscaper

Yes, that's what I figured as well. That adds another large caveat for these numbers. The US is estimated to have significantly more illegal immigration than Canada or the UK for instance. So when considering the top 3 of Docere's list, New York likely has the most undercounted immigrant population, by far, if we agree with what AI says below:

I think we have such limited recourse to measuring with that such estimates have very broad ranges. I’ve read previously that people have tried to get around that with trying to measure mobile connections, sewage output, etc… But still an inexact science.

I would hazard to guess that there is a high certainty that illegal immigration into the US would mostly come from Central and South America due to geographical accessibility. For the UK, it is likely to be beyond the European frontier, primarily people overstaying.