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  #41  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2026, 6:32 PM
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^ Aren't you a CAD designer/ draftsman?
The correct term is "CAD monkey"..... but yes.




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That's what I did all through college and graduate school. Kinda wish I had stuck with it but hindsight is 20/20...
I can't think of a carreer path I'd rather have taken than ending up as one of the cogs in the machinery that is literally rebuilding neighborhoods all across my beloved Chicago, one flat building at a time. My ancestors are smiling above.
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  #42  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2026, 6:34 PM
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We build what the land use code allows, also limited by building code, condo laws, financing availability, and so on. Missing middle has been very hard for a bunch of reasons. Many of those reasons are going away or getting better.

Codes are liberalizing to allow single-stair multifamily in many regions. That avoids a lot of wasted space and expense.

With building codes, the line between commercial codes and residential codes can be a huge added cost. Those lines are being moved in some regions to make missing middle easier.

Land use codes typically encourage large buildings or houses, but that again has been changing in many areas to encourage missing middle.

Parking is often a limiting factor, where you might be able to provide a few spaces on the alley (if there is one) but things get prohibitive if you need more, or need structure. Areas with minimal or no requirements plus good transit can do lots of units with few if any spaces (as is common with larger urban apartment buildings).

Financial options tend to follow when there's opportunity, and apparently there's been progress.

Condo laws make all new condos hard in many places, but especially small buildings. Legislatures have been softening some of these laws.

In Seattle's example a lot of this has recently improved due to new state mandates and pro-growth city leadership. We're not all the way there on policy, and won't get many stacked fourplexes quite yet but we're getting closer.
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  #43  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2026, 6:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
The correct term is "CAD monkey"..... but yes.




I can't think of a carreer path I'd rather have taken then ending up as one of the cogs in the machinery that is literally rebuilding neighborhoods all across my beloved Chicago one flat building at a time. My ancestors are smiling above.
CAD Monkey...been a hot minute since I last heard that. At least you're are working on interesting stuff. For me, it was mostly SFH residential, generic commercial, some oilfield with the one highlight being the Toyota Center.
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  #44  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2026, 7:39 PM
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Nashville is one of the least densely populated large cities in the country. Even by Sun Belt standards it's low density, coming in at less than half the average density of the urban paradise of Raleigh, North Carolina lol. It doesn't have to rely on density to grow, but that's not a luxury that most other large cities in the U.S. have anymore.
Nashville ranks 28th out of the 30 most populated cities in terms of density. It only beats out Jacksonville, Florida, and Oklahoma City:
  1. New York: 29,298 per square mile
  2. San Francisco: 18,635 per square mile
  3. Boston: 13,989 per square mile
  4. Chicago: 12,061 per square mile
  5. Philadelphia: 11,933 per square mile
  6. Washington: 11,286 per square mile
  7. Seattle: 8,795 per square mile
  8. Los Angeles: 8,304 per square mile
  9. Baltimore: 7,240 per square mile
  10. San Jose: 5,683 per square mile
  11. Portland: 4,888 per square mile
  12. Denver: 4,674 per square mile
  13. Detroit: 4,608 per square mile
  14. Las Vegas: 4,527 per square mile
  15. San Diego: 4,256 per square mile
  16. Columbus: 4,117 per square mile
  17. Dallas: 3,841 per square mile
  18. Houston: 3,599 per square mile
  19. Phoenix: 3,105 per square mile
  20. Austin: 3,007 per square mile
  21. San Antonio: 2,876 per square mile
  22. Charlotte: 2,837 per square mile
  23. Fort Worth: 2,646 per square mile
  24. El Paso: 2,627 per square mile
  25. Indianapolis: 2,455 per square mile
  26. Memphis: 2,132 per square mile
  27. Louisville: 1,948 per square mile
  28. Nashville: 1,449 per square mile
  29. Jacksonville: 1,271 per square mile
  30. Oklahoma City: 1,123 per square mile
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  #45  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2026, 7:49 PM
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Well at least Jacksonville is winning at something.
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  #46  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2026, 10:03 PM
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At least you're are working on interesting stuff.
Yes, I think designing new small-scale MFH in Chicago's neighborhoods is profoundly interesting, but a more design-oriented architect might well find it too formulaic and repetitive.

You don't reinvent the wheel for each new working class 3-flat. The budget doesn't allow for that kind of extravagance.

But for me and my job satisfaction, I freaking love the volume of it all, cranking-out flat building after flat building. Each one that comes off the end of the assembly line means another stupid neighborhood-killing vacant lot bites the dust and gets put back on the tax rolls! These neighborhoods were nearly killed by a thousand cuts, and to heal 'em we're gonna need a thousand band-aids, not magic bullets (though custom one-off large-scale stuff is certainly welcome too!).

South lakefront grew by 7.6% last decade. I can't wait to see where it's at in 2030.
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  #47  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2026, 10:33 PM
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Condo laws make all new condos hard in many places, but especially small buildings. Legislatures have been softening some of these laws.
I think this is really the next big dragon to slay. It seems like there is a consensus around zoning reform, whether it's city governments leading the way or thru state pre-emption.

But the American dream is homeownership, not perma-renting. And Millennials/Gen Z are surprisingly open to condos as an alternative to SFH, where the law allows them... but the liability laws in many states have basically killed the condo market there.

Single stair is helpful with affordability and architectural quality, but it's not a dealbreaker for missing middle, Chicago manages to have tons of missing middle despite requiring 2 stairs (it helps that one stair can be exterior up to 3 stories).

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These neighborhoods were nearly killed by a thousand cuts, and to heal 'em we're gonna need a thousand band-aids, not magic bullets (though custom one-off large-scale stuff is certainly welcome too!).

South lakefront grew by 7.6% last decade. I can't wait to see where it's at in 2030.
Yes, the south lakefront is quietly the most exciting story in Chicago development that we rarely talk about. I do hope we get more midrise clusters around the Green Line stations though. It should be Lakeview densities, and you're not gonna get there with 3-flats alone.
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  #48  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2026, 10:59 PM
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Single stair is helpful with affordability and architectural quality, but it's not a dealbreaker for missing middle, Chicago manages to have tons of missing middle despite requiring 2 stairs (it helps that one stair can be exterior up to 3 stories).
Exterior rear stair is big.

Better interior plan.

No FAR ding

And they even let you put it in the rearyard setback.

It's like a 2nd stair cheat code.


If 2nd stair is gonna be enforced, I think chicago's middle ground solution is great.

And it's easily incorporated into rear porches that give each unit some private outside space....... which is nice.





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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
Yes, the south lakefront is quietly the most exciting story in Chicago development that we rarely talk about. I do hope we get more midrise clusters around the Green Line stations though. It should be Lakeview densities, and you're not gonna get there with 3-flats alone.
So far, the bigger mixed-use stuff down there around the L stops. like 43green, has required hefty public subsidy, whereas the little 3-flat stuff I work on is all private market.

Hopefully we'll live to see a day when bigger mixed-use stuff like below can get done with private money alone. But in the meantime, we still got some 10,000 vacant R lots just sitting there....

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  #49  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2026, 2:42 AM
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On the single-stair/egress question.

I had a close look at what permissiveness in this area has achieved to this point, Seattle, Honolulu and NYC.

I considered both the properties completed {a relatively small number so you can look at each) as well as overall market impact (average rental rate per ft2)

Its my conclusion, thus far, that there is no evidence that single-stair/egress produces any improvement in affordability.

In every case I assessed the new single-stair buildings came in at average rent or sale prices that were above market norms for new builds.

In every case, average rents and purchase prices overall and in specific neighbourhoods featuring said buildings continued to climb at, or above CPI.

***

To be clear, I'm not taking a firm position against single stair/egress, rather, I'm asserting that to date, there is no evidence that permissiveness on this point produces greater affordability in the market place.
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  #50  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2026, 4:35 AM
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The main benefit is that more units will be built. Sometimes these projects pencil when they wouldn't with traditional layouts.

And more supply (all kinds) means more affordability as units age over time, meaning both the new units and the existing ones. (More vs. the non-building alternative)

A city like Seattle has an unfathomably large backlog of proposed but unbuilt projects. Trying to make more of these pencil is crucial.
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  #51  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2026, 6:51 AM
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The main benefit is that more units will be built. Sometimes these projects pencil when they wouldn't with traditional layouts.

And more supply (all kinds) means more affordability as units age over time, meaning both the new units and the existing ones. (More vs. the non-building alternative)

A city like Seattle has an unfathomably large backlog of proposed but unbuilt projects. Trying to make more of these pencil is crucial.
I understand the theory. Essentially, 'supply and demand'.

The issue from my perspective is simply one of the benefit (in this particular niche area) is that the argued for benefit appears oversold.
That is to say, using Seattle as example, so far its triggered only a handful of projects.

Those typically have a above-average pricing; and the Seattle market writ large doesn't show any price declines in the post approval period.
One can always argue 'it would have been worse but for" But counter-factuals by their nature are near impossible to prove.
Which again, is not an argument against single-egress, per se, but just an argument that I think the benefit is oversold in terms of affordability in the market.

***

I would argue that in housing markets were affordability is most taxed, the problem is as a much excess demand, as it is under supply.

That can be from unreasonably fast population growth, an overly frothed investor market of people/builders buying investor-box condos, or second houses as investments or assemblies that are years away from being built.

Its also a result of builders (and others) buying up less 'entitled' land, and paying a price for it based on an assumption of upzoning, thus forcing the price of all land higher, which in turn drives the retail price of housing higher.
Then all of that, is in turn compounded on in many markets by wages not keeping pace with the increased cost of housing.

In Canada, writ-large, I argued that the inordinate number of foreign students ( a record, and most of that surge in diploma-mills rather than top tier programs like medicine and engineering) along with temporary foreign workers was both putting too much pressure on the housing market and acting as wage suppressant.

Initially, this view wasn't not well received. But it took hold, and with the numbers of temporary residents now declining, so are rents and housing prices.
It was simply the fastest, easiest way to take pressure off an over-heated market.

That has not fully resolved the housing pressures in Toronto in particular yet, because its dropped market pricing by 10% for the most part for rent, and a bit over double that on the ownership side.
Vancouver's rent decline is a bit larger, but its housing ownership price decline is a bit smaller. To get the pricing ratios to compare to historic norms (when compared to incomes) will require further adjustment.

For further clarity, the ratio of household income to price in Vancouver has roughly doubled in the last 20 years, with recently declines knocking that back to maybe 85%
A price reduction on that order is not coming and would create mass bankruptcy.

But there is a need to get numbers down further, while wages must rise, particularly near the entry levels in order to whittle down the ratio spike to 50% or less.

***

At the end of the day, I'm pro 'missing middle', and removing unreasonable barriers to gentle intensification; providing that they don't compromise safety.

But I think we need a measure of honesty that most of the contemplated measures, certainly on their own, and probably together won't make all that large a dent in the problem.

I'd prefer to see a bit more effort on higher impact solutions.
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  #52  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2026, 2:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
On the single-stair/egress question.

I had a close look at what permissiveness in this area has achieved to this point, Seattle, Honolulu and NYC.

I considered both the properties completed {a relatively small number so you can look at each) as well as overall market impact (average rental rate per ft2)

Its my conclusion, thus far, that there is no evidence that single-stair/egress produces any improvement in affordability.

In every case I assessed the new single-stair buildings came in at average rent or sale prices that were above market norms for new builds.

I wonder if there's a location dimension to it. Were the single-stair/egress buildings disproportionately built in expensive, high-demand areas?

My guess is that when it comes to maximizing living space on an available property, you'd probably try that strategy in high-priced, high-demand, trendy, inner city locations with small lot sizes. I don't know Seattle super well, but I'm thinking places like Capitol Hill, First Hill, etc., rather than places where the land value is cheaper, the location isn't so great, and the lots are bigger or easier to assemble, like on the city's southside.

So the rent/ft2 is more a function of location.
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  #53  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2026, 3:16 PM
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are adu’s considered part of the missing middle?

i would think so.

it’s as big a bloggy discussions housing trend as missing middle.

https://www.nyc.gov/site/hpd/news/021-39...rd-cottages-hpd-pilot-program-helping#/0

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  #54  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2026, 3:53 PM
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Nashville ranks 28th out of the 30 most populated cities in terms of density. It only beats out Jacksonville, Florida, and Oklahoma City:
  1. New York: 29,298 per square mile
  2. San Francisco: 18,635 per square mile
  3. Boston: 13,989 per square mile
  4. Chicago: 12,061 per square mile
  5. Philadelphia: 11,933 per square mile
  6. Washington: 11,286 per square mile
  7. Seattle: 8,795 per square mile
  8. Los Angeles: 8,304 per square mile
  9. Baltimore: 7,240 per square mile
  10. San Jose: 5,683 per square mile
  11. Portland: 4,888 per square mile
  12. Denver: 4,674 per square mile
  13. Detroit: 4,608 per square mile
  14. Las Vegas: 4,527 per square mile
  15. San Diego: 4,256 per square mile
  16. Columbus: 4,117 per square mile
  17. Dallas: 3,841 per square mile
  18. Houston: 3,599 per square mile
  19. Phoenix: 3,105 per square mile
  20. Austin: 3,007 per square mile
  21. San Antonio: 2,876 per square mile
  22. Charlotte: 2,837 per square mile
  23. Fort Worth: 2,646 per square mile
  24. El Paso: 2,627 per square mile
  25. Indianapolis: 2,455 per square mile
  26. Memphis: 2,132 per square mile
  27. Louisville: 1,948 per square mile
  28. Nashville: 1,449 per square mile
  29. Jacksonville: 1,271 per square mile
  30. Oklahoma City: 1,123 per square mile
Miami, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Orlando, Tampa, and a few others are missing from the list.

Last edited by UrbanImpact; Aug 6, 2026 at 4:11 PM.
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  #55  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2026, 4:14 PM
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The title of this thread sounds like a Seinfeld joke from the very early 90s.
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  #56  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2026, 5:47 PM
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Miami, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Orlando, Tampa, and a few others are missing from the list.
It's by city proper, not metro area.

Which is a really silly way to compare average densities.

I don't think comparing the average density of 747 sq. mile Jacksonville to 47 sq. mile San Francisco is telling us anything meaningful.


That said, Nashville is indeed a pretty low density city, as far as these things go.
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  #57  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2026, 5:57 PM
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are adu’s considered part of the missing middle?

i would think so.
I would too.

To me "missing middle" is just a catch-all for any housing typology between detached SFH and larger apartment/condo buildings.

The upper limit on unit count is more nebulous, but as I said earlier in the thread, I use a cut-off of 9 units because at 10+ all the local rules here in Chicago change regarding MFH.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Aug 6, 2026 at 6:16 PM.
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  #58  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2026, 6:03 PM
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At the end of the day, I'm pro 'missing middle', and removing unreasonable barriers to gentle intensification; providing that they don't compromise safety.
That's why I like Chicago's exterior rear stair compromise so much.

You still get a second means of vertical egress for safety, but it doesn't count against you and the interior plan doesn't have to be fully stupid.






Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
But I think we need a measure of honesty that most of the contemplated measures, certainly on their own, and probably together won't make all that large a dent in the problem.

I'd prefer to see a bit more effort on higher impact solutions.
Some cities seem to have such insatiable housing demand that nothing really seems to move the needle much.

Chicago is definitely not one of those cities.

By the last estimate, we have some 30,000 utterly vacant R lots around town just sitting there doing nothing other than growing weeds.

If we had a magic wand and could plop a new 3-flat down on every single one of them, you better believe that would move the needle on housing costs here.
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  #59  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2026, 6:23 PM
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I hate the idea of shared spaces right outside my window, meaning no assurance of privacy. So no exterior staircases please. Not to mention the security risk.

Chicago three flats also look terrible in the back. There I said it and I'm glad.
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  #60  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2026, 7:12 PM
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I hate the idea of shared spaces right outside my window, meaning no assurance of privacy. So no exterior staircases please. Not to mention the security risk.

Chicago three flats also look terrible in the back. There I said it and I'm glad.
That's pretty much any MFH that isn't a self-contained high-rise or mid-rise tower. Every apartment complex I've lived in had shared spaces right outside my window and anyone could access my staircase.
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