VIA Rail

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by madog222

Here's the official render from VIA.


Image from VIA Rail

That's a Siemens Charger locomotive, is it not?

I guess not.

[casper]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

That's a Siemens Charger locomotive, is it not?

Looks more like one of these .... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadler_Euro_Dual or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadler_Eurolight

I think it is a positive. Modernise the current service then expand and build from there.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by casper

I think it is a positive. Modernise the current service then expand and build from there.

I agree. This is solid choice to recapitalize aging long-haul power and gain the capability to grow the fleet long-term with the capacity to introduce electric operation when possible.

As for cost, and (potentially) overpaying to build domestically, at least the money would primarily be spent in the country instead of heading for the exits as would otherwise be the case, regardless of OEM country.

I also don't think the per-unit price is really out of line with recent locomotive purchases in North America. Amtrak ordered 50 Siemens Chargers in 2022 for $1.15B USD, which is about $1.31B USD today with inflation. That yields a per-unit cost of $26.2M USD, or $36.8M CAD at today's exchange rates. The VIA locomotive order for 45 Stadler units is quoted at $1.6B CAD, or $35.6M per unit, which is actually less than the Amtrak calculation. But the $357M VIA plant where Stadler will be contracted to build most of the locomotive order must be capitalized into the unit price. All-in, the $1.95B order divided across 45 units yields about $43.3M per unit for VIA, or about a $6.5M premium per locomotive over what Amtrak recently paid for a generally comparable product (notwithstanding the battery hybrid drivetrain for the VIA Stadlers).

Whether that is a worthwhile premium to pay versus sending it all south or overseas is up to the individual to decide. I think it is a good strategy for us at this moment in time.

[madog222]

I do question the merit of a battery hybrid locomotive on a long distance train.

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

That's a Siemens Charger locomotive, is it not?

I guess not.

Convergent evolution at work.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by madog222

I do question the merit of a battery hybrid locomotive on a long distance train.

According to the government announcement "The battery systems will be used to optimize and reduce fuel consumption, providing an immediate efficiency gain while laying the groundwork for future zero-emission propulsion." The batteries will be supplied by ABB from its Saint-Laurent facility.

CN bought a Wabtec FLXdrive battery-electric heavy-haul freight locomotive to test in 2022, so the technology is also being considered for long distance freight. In 2024 they bought a hybrid locomotive from Progress Rail, a Caterpillar Company, as part of their decarbonization plans. That's operating out of Prince George, in BC.

[Nouvellecosse]

^ I also wonder if having the battery component helps to improve reliability and avoid cases like the trains that were stranded for hours in the news over the last year or so. If there was a failure with the diesel prim movers the batteries could help it limp to the nearest statin or least least provide some passenger comfort services.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

^ I also wonder if having the battery component helps to improve reliability and avoid cases like the trains that were stranded for hours in the news over the last year or so. If there was a failure with the diesel prim movers the batteries could help it limp to the nearest statin or least least provide some passenger comfort services.

I traveled on the Canadian from Vancouver to Alberta earlier in the year. Noticed that the train spends an hour or two with boarding in Vancouver. There are some other stops and a long multi-hour stop in Jasper. During that time they need to continue running the engine to provide power for the cars. If they end spending some time waiting on another train they is also an opportunity there to save some fuel.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by casper

I traveled on the Canadian from Vancouver to Alberta earlier in the year. Noticed that the train spends an hour or two with boarding in Vancouver. There are some other stops and a long multi-hour stop in Jasper. During that time they need to continue running the engine to provide power for the cars. If they end spending some time waiting on another train they is also an opportunity there to save some fuel.

Oh that would be huge. I had no idea they idled for that long under normal conditions.

[J81]

Originally Posted by casper

I traveled on the Canadian from Vancouver to Alberta earlier in the year. Noticed that the train spends an hour or two with boarding in Vancouver. There are some other stops and a long multi-hour stop in Jasper. During that time they need to continue running the engine to provide power for the cars. If they end spending some time waiting on another train they is also an opportunity there to save some fuel.

You are both correct. The battery will allow the diesel engines to shut down while stationary for long periods of time as well as provide motive power for short distances like the MMC to Central station or in the case of a failure of the diesel engine.

[J81]

Originally Posted by someone123

But they're not actually useful for the bulk of populations in those areas. Vancouver to Toronto is a very expensive tourist train that loses money. These long routes have schedules that aren't always convenient if you're only going for part of the journey.

Some small towns do get useful service. For example, it's important for Churchill, MB. But it's not a good argument to say this is "rest of Canada" service; it does nothing for somebody in Calgary.

I'm not anti-VIA or ranting about this but I think your framing of it is off.

The Canadian doesnt lose money.

So because these locomotives wont be seen in every city in Canada you dont like the referral to “the rest of Canada”? Do I have that correct? They will literally be seen at every VIA station outside the corridor and some within.

And you do sound anti VIA nitpicking about semantics. Sorry they dont run trains in Yellowknife but yanno.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Oh that would be huge. I had no idea they idled for that long under normal conditions.

Japser is a weird stop since they need to adjust the number of cars on the train. They have several extra cars between Jasper and Vancouver. They usually have a crew with a spray washer clean all the windows on the outside in Jasper as well. If its come all the way from Toronto, you want to clean windows before you head into the Rockies.
A number of the tour companies will bundle the Canadian between Vancouver and Jasper with a land tour that makes it way down through Banff to Calgary.

I have never done it east of Saskatoon, but my understanding is Winnipeg also has a long multi-hour stop.

[SFUVancouver]

The Stadler press release is out and contains a definitive rendering and some new information, including a 20-year in-service support contract with Stadler personnel based out of VIA maintenance facilities in Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg and Vancouver, and more information about the hybrid drivetrain.

Stadler to supply 45 hybrid locomotives to Via Rail in landmark Canadian order



30.07.2026

Stadler has signed a contract with VIA Rail Canada to supply 45 hybrid locomotives, marking the company's first locomotive order in Canada. The contract includes a 20-year Technical Support and Spare Supply Agreement (“TSSSA”). The new fleet will support VIA Rail’s Long-Distance, Regional and Remote Rail (LDRR) program and contribute to the modernization and decarbonization of passenger rail services across the country.

Designed to operate reliably in Canada's demanding climate, including temperatures as low as -50°C, the new locomotives combine proven diesel-electric technology with an innovative battery-assisted traction system. The hybrid concept will improve operational performance, reduce fuel consumption and emissions, and deliver a more sustainable travel experience for passengers and communities along VIA Rail's network.

The contract represents a major milestone for Stadler and further strengthens the company's presence in the North American market.

Hybrid technology supporting decarbonization

The locomotives will be equipped with traction battery modules that supply energy for onboard auxiliary systems, head-end power requirements, and traction. By combining battery power with the diesel engine, the vehicles can deliver up to 4 MW of power at the wheel, a starting tractive effort of 350 kN, and a maximum operating speed of 160 km/h (100 mph), ensuring excellent acceleration, high performance on steep gradients, and reliable operation across VIA Rail’s long-distance network including routes serving remote communities throughout the country.

The hybrid architecture enables the recovery and storage of braking energy in the batteries, significantly improving overall energy efficiency while reducing fuel consumption and maintenance requirements. By combining battery-assisted traction with optimized diesel engine operation, the locomotives help lower greenhouse gas emissions and support VIA Rail's decarbonization objectives, while delivering enhanced operational performance and reduced lifecycle costs.

At stations and other environmentally sensitive areas, the locomotives can operate in battery mode, significantly reducing noise and exhaust emissions. In addition to supporting peak power demands, the battery system enhances operational resilience by enabling the locomotive to continue operating and reach a safe location in the unlikely event of a diesel powertrain failure.

The new fleet has been designed with sustainability in mind, featuring recyclability rates above 92% and recoverability rates exceeding 95%. The battery system is also designed for long service life and second-life applications, further supporting VIA Rail's decarbonization ambitions

Built for Canada's demanding conditions

The new locomotives are being developed for dependable operation across Canada's vast geography and demanding climate. Their design builds on Stadler's proven technologies, successfully deployed for more than a decade in countries such as Sweden and Norway, where they have demonstrated reliable performance in harsh winter conditions.

The locomotives will connect major urban centers and remote communities, supporting VIA Rail's mission to provide accessible, reliable and environmentally sustainable transportation nationwide.

Iñigo Parra, Executive Vice-President Division Spain, said: "Our hybrid locomotive platform combines performance, reliability and sustainability. By integrating battery-assisted operation into a powerful long-distance locomotive, we are providing VIA Rail with a future-oriented solution that supports its environmental objectives while enhancing operational flexibility and passenger service."

The project

Stadler Valencia, the Group's center of competence for locomotives, will be responsible for the design, manufacture and delivery of the new fleet. Located near Valencia (Spain), the Albuixech facility is one of Europe's leading railway technology sites, home to more than 500 engineers dedicated to vehicle design and development. While Stadler will retain full project responsibility, part of the locomotive assembly, as well as testing and commissioning activities, will be carried out in Canada.

In addition to supplying the 45 locomotives, Stadler and VIA Rail have signed a 20-year “TSSSA” contract to ensure the long-term reliability, availability and cost-effective operation of the fleet. These services will be delivered by Stadler's Service Division, the Group’s center of competence for maintenance services, through a Canadian subsidiary to be incorporated, with personnel based at VIA Rail's main maintenance facilities in Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg and Vancouver. The project will contribute to the development of Canada's railway industry by creating skilled jobs in manufacturing, testing and maintenance, while supporting the transfer of expertise and advanced railway technologies

https://www.stadlerrail.com/en/media/med...supply-45-hybrid-locomotives-to-via-rail

[someone123]

Originally Posted by J81

The Canadian doesnt lose money.

Internet sources don't seem to agree with you, e.g.: https://www.blacklocks.ca/subsidy-1015-per-passenger/ (subsidized by $1,015 per passenger in 2024), and it's not what I remember from seeing the financial statements a while back.

So because these locomotives wont be seen in every city in Canada you dont like the referral to “the rest of Canada”? Do I have that correct? They will literally be seen at every VIA station outside the corridor and some within.

My view is straightforward and you don't seem to dispute it:

- A lot of VIA routes that nominally cover various parts of Canada are not actually very useful to the people living near each stop, with the exceptions mostly being some remote rural areas that represent a very small portion of the population
- Some major cities like Calgary aren't served at all
- Hence it is at best a niche service outside of the corridor

[MolsonExport]

I'd love to take the Canadian journey as a First-Class Passenger.
• Video Link

[Innsertnamehere]

My understanding is that the Canadian is the closest to profitable of all the other non-corridor routes, but still loses cash.

I believe it is actually profitable in the summer months and burns cash only in the off season, at least from an operating perspective.

The Corridor is also surprisingly close to profitability, or at least has a fairly high recovery ratio.

It's all the other non-corridor, non-Canadian routes which get like 90-95% subsidies and which burn a massive hole in VIA's pocket. Think the Ocean, services to Churchill, Gaspe, etc.

The Sudbury–White River service sees only around 5,000 trips a year - an average of just 19 passengers per service!

VIA could restore a lot of profitability if it simply stopped most of it's non-corridor services, especially the northern routes. if it were up to me I would drop everything but the Corridor and the Ocean / Canadian.

[madog222]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

VIA could restore a lot of profitability if it simply stopped most of it's non-corridor services, especially the northern routes. if it were up to me I would drop everything but the Corridor and the Ocean / Canadian.

Is the purpose of VIA to be profitable or to provide a service to Canadians?

[someone123]

VIA is doing a lot of different things:

- Legacy nice-to-have routes
- Critical train connections for communities without roads
- Practical intercity rail
- Impractical trains mostly for tourists

I think a better model would have been some sort of regulatory body for the natural monopoly of the railways themselves, the feds should never have sold them off, and they should have tried to grow the network (but hey, second-best time to start is today). There should also be requirements that operators like CN and CP make reasonable, transparent efforts to allow other services on their infrastructure. There could then be private, public, or p3 style services. Toronto-Montreal would be privately profitable, but the no-road northern communities would need either subsidy or a fully public service. The provinces could also then step in and more easily operate intra-provincial services and decide locally what is worth subsidizing or not. The various levels of government could also invest more in incrementally improving the infrastructure itself as it would be a more explicitly acknowledged public good rather than just a private asset.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by madog222

Is the purpose of VIA to be profitable or to provide a service to Canadians?

latter obviously - but there are limits. How useful is a service really if demand could be satisfied by a daily Ford Transit van trip?

The Corridor and Canadian/Ocean need subsidies, but have clear demand patterns. Services like Sudbury>White River have limited utility, and even more limited demand, yet are subsidized to the tune of millions per year. Those communities would likely be better off seeing that money spent elsewhere to help them. We are talking about thousands in subsidies for every passenger, the bleed rate is nothing short of insane.

Even services like Churchill would probably be far better off by closing the rail line and converting it to a gravel access road.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

latter obviously - but there are limits. How useful is a service really if demand could be satisfied by a daily Ford Transit van trip?

The Corridor and Canadian/Ocean need subsidies, but have clear demand patterns. Services like Sudbury>White River have limited utility, and even more limited demand, yet are subsidized to the tune of millions per year. Those communities would likely be better off seeing that money spent elsewhere to help them. We are talking about thousands in subsidies for every passenger, the bleed rate is nothing short of insane.

Even services like Churchill would probably be far better off by closing the rail line and converting it to a gravel access road.

Via is trying to do different things for different people. Perhaps its needs rethink some of this.

Tour company

The Canadian should be about attracting tourists to Canada. The luxury service is expensive and books up (even in winter) between Vancouver and Edmonton. Have that drive the schedule. Include one or two economy cars for the locals that may benefit from the service of the back-packers.

What VIA does not do and they should is build an operate a hotel in Vancouver, Jasper and Edmonton. (Similar to the old railway hotels). They don't even sell hotel rooms bundled with the train journey.

Connecting Cities

That should be economy class and maybe business class. They need to do a better job of integrating with local bus line operators so you can buy an interline ticket.

Corridor

Is a high frequency distinct service.

[J81]

Originally Posted by someone123

Internet sources don't seem to agree with you, e.g.: https://www.blacklocks.ca/subsidy-1015-per-passenger/ (subsidized by $1,015 per passenger in 2024), and it's not what I remember from seeing the financial statements a while back.



My view is straightforward and you don't seem to dispute it:

- A lot of VIA routes that nominally cover various parts of Canada are not actually very useful to the people living near each stop, with the exceptions mostly being some remote rural areas that represent a very small portion of the population
- Some major cities like Calgary aren't served at all
- Hence it is at best a niche service outside of the corridor

Why dont you go and look at the actual report from VIA instead of some Blacklock article.

Does Amtrak serve every major city in the US?

Your argument is silly.