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  #1381  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2026, 9:25 PM
WayneShuster WayneShuster is offline
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Is that offensive to you? I have zero skin in the game here. But my word it's nauseating how you can't even say jew without being 'anti-semetic'.
Or the word Islamic without being labelled an Islamophobe. Equally if not more nauseating.
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  #1382  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2026, 9:57 PM
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My opinions on the CMHR/Nakba/Gail Asper thingie, for what they're worth (spoiler alert: not a heck of a lot).

The CMHR would never have existed without Izzy's vision and the ongoing support of the Asper family. I don't know any of them personally, but my impression is that Izzy was genuinely passionate about human rights issues. I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that he probably felt most passionately about human rights offences against Jewish communities, which would be natural for any of us with a personal connection to an issue.

There is, of course, a significant section of CMHR space dedicated to the Holocaust. There's no denying this horrible event would deserve space in a Human Rights museum no matter who funded it.

Gail Asper has followed her father's vision in supporting the CMHR, which includes (included?) financial support of the CMHR. Again, I've never met the woman, but I would have no doubt she is as committed to the museum as she is committed to her father's vision of the museum.

Her decision to withhold financial support is where things get unsettling for me. Her opposition to the Nakba display apparently wasn't about denying the Nakba occurred, but whether a "balanced" portrayal of the event, in how it impacted both Palestinians and Jews, was, in her opinion, lacking. She also voiced concerns about how the exhibit might contribute to antisemitism.

I think her second concern was valid, as there is always an element that looks to demonize an identifiable group by generalizing offences across an entire population. We saw it with Muslims after 911, we see it with nations whose leader commit criminal acts.

Her first concern contains some troublesome issues. Asking for "balance" within a display about a single topic smacks of "whataboutism". It runs the risk of minimizing the effect of the Nakba on the Palestinians, and establishing a "my people's suffering trumps your people's suffering" dialogue in which no-one can come out unscathed.

There is also the spectre of interference in a national institution, something we've seen in the U.S. with the Trump administration punishing the Smithsonian and other museums for portraying slavery in too negative a light and not presenting enough of a "positive" image of the good ol' USA.

Of course the Aspers can do whatever they want with their money. Personally I think the issue could have been dealt with better had Gail Asper simply asked the museum to have another display in the future that addressed her concerns. The issue of differing historical perspectives is certainly a valid one, and one the CMHR is, I believe, equipped to handle.
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  #1383  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2026, 10:35 PM
Sheepish Sheepish is online now
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PSPEID...thanks for a more thoughtful response.
I first promised myself that I would not read the comments on the CMHR thread. Then I promised myself that I wouldn't respond. Well...I couldn't keep my promise to myself! In general I believe that this forum should really (IMO) steer clear of political matters, except as it relates to the development of the city. That said, please accept this post in the spirit in which it is intended.
The term Nakba was coined by an arab scholar to refer to the failure (and resulting disgrace) to eliminate Jews from the land in 1948. Arab leaders had encouraged Palestinians to leave, with the expecation of return once the Jews were eliminated. Well that didn't happen. THIS was the catastrophe. A war that Arab neighbours started and failed to achieve its singular goal - rid the land of Jews. What did happen is that the Arab/Palestinian leaadership rejected the plan for a two state system, in hopes of getting it all. What also happened was that thriving Jewish communities were expelled from Iran, Egypt, Jordan and other Arab countries. Sound familiar? (Spain, Ukraine, Poland, Hungary, Germany). Now to be clear, today there is hate on both sides...particularly with the far right religious members. The West Bank is a terrible example. But the vast majority of Jews do not hate Arabs, and they live side by side peacefully within Israel. And until October 7th, Jews and Palestinians worked together. But there has been an expressed objective by Iran and it's proxies Hammas, Hezbollah and the Hutis to eliminate Israel as a Jewish state. That is beyond hate...that is a genocidal threat. Actually, it is a mission statement.
Gail Asper's position (and I don't care what the %'s are on Reddit - and I am not here to speak for her) is that having an exhibit that discusses the Palestinian issue is not a problem. But if it doesn't share a) why it is referred to as the Nakba b) the responsibility of the Arab states in the down fall of the Palestinian people and the perpetuation of their strife, and c) why Israel attacked Gaza on October 8th, it is intelectually dishonest. Worse yet it helps foment the anti Semitic rhetoric and actions that have become so prevolent.
Terms/expressions/statements like 'Jew friendly' and 'Jews hating Arabs' is clearly expressing the anti semitic tropes that have become so common and normalized since October 8. Critize Isreali response and policies. Criticize Netanyahu (and BTW...most Israeli's wish he was gone), but once the go-to uses 'Jew' as the prefix in drawing sweeping conclusions it is indeed starting to meet the criteria of Anti Semitism.
I will give the benefit of the doubt that it is not intended as such. At the same time, we are only a couple of generations removed from the infamos policy statement from the head of immigration in the government of William Lyon McKenzie King'...'none is too many'.
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  #1384  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2026, 10:57 PM
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Sheep-thanks for the background information. Historical perspective is always important. So many players with their own agendas, combined with so much hatred and distrust has made the issue a real "shlamassel", if I may borrow the phrase.
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  #1385  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2026, 3:47 AM
WayneShuster WayneShuster is offline
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Originally Posted by Sheepish View Post
PSPEID...thanks for a more thoughtful response.
I first promised myself that I would not read the comments on the CMHR thread. Then I promised myself that I wouldn't respond. Well...I couldn't keep my promise to myself! In general I believe that this forum should really (IMO) steer clear of political matters, except as it relates to the development of the city. That said, please accept this post in the spirit in which it is intended.
The term Nakba was coined by an arab scholar to refer to the failure (and resulting disgrace) to eliminate Jews from the land in 1948. Arab leaders had encouraged Palestinians to leave, with the expecation of return once the Jews were eliminated. Well that didn't happen. THIS was the catastrophe. A war that Arab neighbours started and failed to achieve its singular goal - rid the land of Jews. What did happen is that the Arab/Palestinian leaadership rejected the plan for a two state system, in hopes of getting it all. What also happened was that thriving Jewish communities were expelled from Iran, Egypt, Jordan and other Arab countries. Sound familiar? (Spain, Ukraine, Poland, Hungary, Germany). Now to be clear, today there is hate on both sides...particularly with the far right religious members. The West Bank is a terrible example. But the vast majority of Jews do not hate Arabs, and they live side by side peacefully within Israel. And until October 7th, Jews and Palestinians worked together. But there has been an expressed objective by Iran and it's proxies Hammas, Hezbollah and the Hutis to eliminate Israel as a Jewish state. That is beyond hate...that is a genocidal threat. Actually, it is a mission statement. Isreal has no choice but to be heavily armed in this day and age in order to ensure its existence.
Gail Asper's position (and I don't care what the %'s are on Reddit - and I am not here to speak for her) is that having an exhibit that discusses the Palestinian issue is not a problem. But if it doesn't share a) why it is referred to as the Nakba b) the responsibility of the Arab states in the down fall of the Palestinian people and the perpetuation of their strife, and c) why Israel attacked Gaza on October 8th, it is intelectually dishonest. Worse yet it helps foment the anti Semitic rhetoric and actions that have become so prevolent.
Terms/expressions/statements like 'Jew friendly' and 'Jews hating Arabs' is clearly expressing the anti semitic tropes that have become so common and normalized since October 8. Critize Isreali response and policies. Criticize Netanyahu (and BTW...most Israeli's wish he was gone), but once the go-to uses 'Jew' as the prefix in drawing sweeping conclusions it is indeed starting to meet the criteria of Anti Semitism.
I will give the benefit of the doubt that it is not intended as such. At the same time, we are only a couple of generations removed from the infamos policy statement from the head of immigration in the government of William Lyon McKenzie King'...'none is too many'.
Thank you very much for taking the time to post this factually correct information Sheep. The vast majority of people have not bothered to research the true dynamics of the Israeli-Islamic history to fully appreciate the situation for what it is. There is a real and serious rise in not just Anti-Semetism, but also a sharp rise in loathing towards the Christian community as well (I've experience this personally as of late). For extreme examples, one only has to look at what is occuring in countries such as Nigeria, but we hardly ever hear about that. I wonder why?

I am also no fan of the Netanyahu regime whatsoever, but to those who say Isreal must be completely disarmed and subdued, if that should ever occur, you can rest assured the mission as mentioned above would be carried out and likely achieved in a very short period of time.
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  #1386  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2026, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by pspeid View Post
My opinions on the CMHR/Nakba/Gail Asper thingie, for what they're worth (spoiler alert: not a heck of a lot).

The CMHR would never have existed without Izzy's vision and the ongoing support of the Asper family. I don't know any of them personally, but my impression is that Izzy was genuinely passionate about human rights issues. I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that he probably felt most passionately about human rights offences against Jewish communities, which would be natural for any of us with a personal connection to an issue.
1. Asper never gave a shit about Hunan Rights issues. As a hardcore Zionist, it's well known he gave enormous amounts of money, for illegal Jewish settlements in Palestine, to raze homes, villages, etc to eradicate Palestinians.

2. Asper wanted a Holocaust Museum. When the Government denied him this, he wanted a watered-down Holocaust museum, under the guise of Human Rights.

3. Polling by friends of the Museum, as to what the centrepeice of the museum should be, shocked everyone. It turns out the #1 answer, was the treatment of our First Nations people, and the human rights violations they suffered. It was not even close. However, this was a complete shock to Gail Asper's group,,who were so tone-deaf that they actually thought the Holocaust would easily win.

Quote:
There is, of course, a significant section of CMHR space dedicated to the Holocaust. There's no denying this horrible event would deserve space in a Human Rights museum no matter who funded it.
The CMHR gives the Holocaust too much space. It's a CANADIAN Human Rights museum. Last time I checked, the Holocaust occurred in Europe. However, the human rights abuses towards our Indigenous community easily should have taken up more space than something that happened on the other side of the World.

Quote:
Gail Asper has followed her father's vision in supporting the CMHR, which includes (included?) financial support of the CMHR. Again, I've never met the woman, but I would have no doubt she is as committed to the museum as she is committed to her father's vision of the museum.




She certainly did. Izzy hated Palestinians, and wanted to drive them out of Israel. Gail is indeed, following in his footsteps.

Quote:
Her decision to withhold financial support is where things get unsettling for me. Her opposition to the Nakba display apparently wasn't about denying the Nakba occurred, but whether a "balanced" portrayal of the event, in how it impacted both Palestinians and Jews, was, in her opinion, lacking. She also voiced concerns about how the exhibit might contribute to antisemitism.
The Aspers want to bully and pressure the museum to drop any reference to it. Consulting with Palestinians in regards to the Nakba (to get the Jewish side of the story), is the equivalent of consulting with the Nazils in regards to the Holocaust, so we can look at it from Hitler's side.

Quote:
I think her second concern was valid, as there is always an element that looks to demonize an identifiable group by generalizing offences across an entire population. We saw it with Muslims after 911, we see it with nations whose leader commit criminal acts.
.

9/11 was not "state-sponsored genocide." It was a group of radicals that did not even adhere to their own religion. No different than certain extremist Christian and Jewish groups have done in the past. You cannot compare that to what the Zionists are doing in Palestine.

Quote:
Of course the Aspers can do whatever they want with their money. Personally I think the issue could have been dealt with better had Gail Asper simply asked the museum to have another display in the future that addressed her concerns. The issue of differing historical perspectives is certainly a valid one, and one the CMHR is, I believe, equipped to handle.
Gail and the Asper family have far too much input on the museum. They need to be shown the door- permanently. She is a self-proclaimed Zionist, who would like nothing better than to have all Palestinians
driven out of Israel.

Last edited by BlackDog204; Jul 30, 2026 at 7:48 PM.
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  #1387  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2026, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Sheepish View Post
PSPEID...thanks for a more thoughtful response.
I first promised myself that I would not read the comments on the CMHR thread. Then I promised myself that I wouldn't respond. Well...I couldn't keep my promise to myself! In general I believe that this forum should really (IMO) steer clear of political matters, except as it relates to the development of the city. That said, please accept this post in the spirit in which it is intended.
The term Nakba was coined by an arab scholar to refer to the failure (and resulting disgrace) to eliminate Jews from the land in 1948. Arab leaders had encouraged Palestinians to leave, with the expecation of return once the Jews were eliminated. Well that didn't happen. THIS was the catastrophe. A war that Arab neighbours started and failed to achieve its singular goal - rid the land of Jews. What did happen is that the Arab/Palestinian leaadership rejected the plan for a two state system, in hopes of getting it all. What also happened was that thriving Jewish communities were expelled from Iran, Egypt, Jordan and other Arab countries. Sound familiar? (Spain, Ukraine, Poland, Hungary, Germany). Now to be clear, today there is hate on both sides...particularly with the far right religious members. The West Bank is a terrible example. But the vast majority of Jews do not hate Arabs, and they live side by side peacefully within Israel. And until October 7th, Jews and Palestinians worked together. But there has been an expressed objective by Iran and it's proxies Hammas, Hezbollah and the Hutis to eliminate Israel as a Jewish state. That is beyond hate...that is a genocidal threat. Actually, it is a mission statement.
Gail Asper's position (and I don't care what the %'s are on Reddit - and I am not here to speak for her) is that having an exhibit that discusses the Palestinian issue is not a problem. But if it doesn't share a) why it is referred to as the Nakba b) the responsibility of the Arab states in the down fall of the Palestinian people and the perpetuation of their strife, and c) why Israel attacked Gaza on October 8th, it is intelectually dishonest. Worse yet it helps foment the anti Semitic rhetoric and actions that have become so prevolent.
This historical revisionism, is on par with saying that First Nations people "volunteered to give up nearly all of their land" to live on barren plots called reservations, far away from cities and rich agricultural land, that non Indigenous people owned. And they also were overjoyed that PCMP officers showed up at their reservations to take their children away, to "beat the Indian out of them," and erase their language and customs.

Last edited by Wpg_Guy; Jul 30, 2026 at 11:04 AM. Reason: Edited inflammatory commentary
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  #1388  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2026, 11:03 AM
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I'm stepping in here as recent posts have moved into detailed debate on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, historical interpretations of 1948/Nakba, broader antisemitism or related issues, and competing narratives. Those topics are complex, highly charged, and outside the scope of this forum and this thread, continuing in that direction is not productive here. Please return the conversation to the CMHR itself, further off-topic or inflammatory posts on this subject may be edited, moved, or removed to keep the thread usable for its intended purpose. Thanks for helping keep the discussion constructive and on-topic.
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  #1389  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2026, 11:26 AM
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I'm stepping in here as recent posts have moved into detailed debate on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, historical interpretations of 1948/Nakba, broader antisemitism or related issues, and competing narratives. Those topics are complex, highly charged, and outside the scope of this forum and this thread, continuing in that direction is not productive here. Please return the conversation to the CMHR itself, further off-topic or inflammatory posts on this subject may be edited, moved, or removed to keep the thread usable for its intended purpose. Thanks for helping keep the discussion constructive and on-topic.

I agree with your post, but what I said is the truth. The truth is not inflammatory.

The bolded part of the post i responded to, is incorrect. Polling shows that Jewish Israelis have wanted Israeli Arabs gone, for at least the past decade. You can;t leave a lie standing, and censor the truth.

source: Nearly half of Israeli Jews want to expel Arabs from the country: survey

Also blaming the predicament on the people in Gaza on Iran, is ridiculous.
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  #1390  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2026, 11:30 AM
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I agree with your post, but what I said is the truth.
Just keep opinions from being personal please.
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  #1391  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2026, 11:37 AM
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Just keep opinions from being personal please.

Saying a statement is "comedic gold" is personal? I do not mind hearing the Jewish version of history and the creation of the state of Israel, but I don;t think it's a stretch to insinuate "Jews and Arabs in Israel are working side by side peacefully" is absurd, a personal attack.
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  #1392  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2026, 11:46 AM
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Saying a statement is "comedic gold" is personal? I do not mind hearing the Jewish version of history and the creation of the state of Israel, but I don;t think it's a stretch to insinuate "Jews and Arabs in Israel are working side by side peacefully" is absurd, a personal attack.
Calling someone's comments “comedic gold” is dismissive and sarcastic, not a direct personal attack but It’s still unhelpful if the goal is a serious discussion, stick to claims and evidence rather than sarcasm or personal characterizations.

The priority is keeping the discussion civil so no one risks a ban.
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  #1393  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2026, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Wpg_Guy View Post
Calling someone's comments “comedic gold” is dismissive and sarcastic, not a direct personal attack but It’s still unhelpful if the goal is a serious discussion, stick to claims and evidence rather than sarcasm or personal characterizations.

The priority is keeping the discussion civil so no one risks a ban.
Sarcasm.... an offense, punishable with a ban....Considering sarcasm is used all the time, I'm beginning to question if the true reason you bring up banishment, is that I am not pro-Israel
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  #1394  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2026, 12:08 PM
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I support free and open debate. It wouldn’t be me issuing a ban, but that’s often how these heated conversations end up. I’m asking everyone to maintain decorum and remain respectful of others’ comments and opinions. Differing views are fine, but this thread is about the Canadian Museum for Human Rights. Let’s keep the discussion focused on the museum itself and avoid turning it into a broader debate that isn’t productive here.
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  #1395  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2026, 2:35 PM
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Let's also not - from your friendly neighbourhood litigation attorney - make any statements about figures that may fall into defamatory territory.
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  #1396  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2026, 3:47 PM
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Please return the conversation to the CMHR itself, further off-topic or inflammatory posts on this subject may be edited, moved, or removed to keep the thread usable for its intended purpose. Thanks for helping keep the discussion constructive and on-topic.
I agree that the discussion devolved into personal animosity and geo-political accusations, and I'm certainly not defending that course. However, I'm not sure what would qualify as a post about the museum itself at this point? Apart from critiquing the CMHR's displays and funding, there really doesn't seem to be much else to discuss about the institution.
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  #1397  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2026, 4:05 PM
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In total agreement.
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  #1398  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2026, 5:28 PM
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I agree that the discussion devolved into personal animosity and geo-political accusations, and I'm certainly not defending that course. However, I'm not sure what would qualify as a post about the museum itself at this point? Apart from critiquing the CMHR's displays and funding, there really doesn't seem to be much else to discuss about the institution.
Discussions around Gail Asper’s concerns and the broader historical and ongoing conflicts related to the exhibit are valid. The museum’s purpose in presenting this material is, in part, to encourage informed and healthy discussion.

What will not be tolerated are personal characterizations, accusations, and highly charged framing directed at individuals, as seen in BlackDog204’s
posts. Those cross the line from legitimate critique into inflammatory and personal attacks.
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  #1399  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2026, 5:29 PM
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Let's also not - from your friendly neighbourhood litigation attorney - make any statements about figures that may fall into defamatory territory.
Well you can't be much of a litigation attorney, if you consider the truth, to be against civil law.
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Old Posted Jul 30, 2026, 5:38 PM
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Well you can't be much of a litigation attorney, if you consider the truth, to be against civil law.
Truth is a defence to defamation, but speculating about people's intentions or stating a fact about someone's state of mind can be dicey territory. But I see we're simply falling into ad hominems now, thank you for your transparency.
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