How Quebec became North America's urban outlier

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I don't think you ever acclimate to that,

Maybe you don't.

Or won't.

But you're merely 1 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 out of us 8 billion 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by mhays

Sure, it's possible to deal with bad weather, but why not live somewhere you like?

I often wonder how all those immigrants who move to Canada (let's be honest, because they couldn't get a migrant visa to the US, and it's easier to be accepted as a migrant in Canada), how they feel when they endure their first Canadian winter. Do they have buyer's remorse? It must be hellish for those Indian and African immigrants coming from hot climates (it looks already hellish enough for them in Paris in winter).

Even for the French, who come from a much colder climate than India or Africa, it's tough. The first winter my cousin spent in Montréal after migrating there (and she came not from Paris but from.... NYC, a city with colder winters than any French city), I still remember she told us she had to wear not just 2 pairs of heavy socks, but she even had to put plastic bags around her feet in her shoes, because it was so freaking cold outside... This has become family legend now.

I have some other cousins from my mom's side who moved to Montréal (from France) this past winter, just when Montréal had a particularly cold winter, I wonder how they must have felt...

[Docere]

Filipino immigrants to Canada in particular often end up in rather cold places. 10% of the population of Winnipeg is Filipino, as is 7% of the population of Yellowknife.

[Docere]

Dwellings:

Montreal (ville)

Detached 7%
Semi-detached 3%
Row house 3%
Duplex 13.2%
Apartment < 5 stories 57%
Apartment 5+ stories 16%

Montreal Island

Detached 11%
Semi-detached 4%
Row house 4%
Duplex 12%
Apartment < 5 stories 53%
Apartment 5+ stories 16%

Montreal Census Metropolitan Area

Detached 32%
Semi-detached 5%
Row house 3%
Duplex 8%
Apartment < 5 stories 41%
Apartment 5+ stories 10%

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Are you insinuating that Montrealers don't like where the live?

Let's say they have... mixed feelings? Flight reservations in winter to Florida (pre-Trump) or Caribbean (post-Trump) give a clue.

And it was already like that long ago.

In this video from 1960 for instance, you can hear several Montrealers saying they are sick and tired of the cold (the journalist interviewed Montrealers in winter at the airport who were returning from or going to Florida/Caribbean).

(note: Youtube has this annoying new feature automatically dubbing the videos now, so I'm not sure how it will display in your location, but the people in the video's original sound speak French, not English, so these are native Québécois interviewed here, except the 2nd woman in the video who is from France)

• Video Link

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by The North One

Does the difference between a wide stepped stoop a few feet tall and a multilevel steep staircase that's more akin to a ladder really need to be explained?

Even for young healthy people that's a pain to deal with. But you effectively shut out anybody older than middle aged from a huge portion of housing units.

Being just a little bit dramatic.

For one, the outdoor staircases are usually only ever from ground to the second floor - higher levels almost always have internal stairs accessed from the second floor exteior. I don’t think the pitch & width of the stairs is much different from interior stairs of the era either - which is to say, they wouldn't meet current building codes, but really shouldn't be a challenge for any able-bodied person. This is a pretty typical plex setup - seems easy enough to me?


https://strongtownsottawa.ca/wp-content/uploads/2026/03/montrealMissingMiddle.jpg


In any case, somehow Montrealers manage. Just like how elderly New Yorkers make do with 5-storey walkups or elderly Italians survive in hilltop cobblestone villages - and most are all the better for it. The outdoor stairs keep Montrealers nimble and balanced - maybe that explains where the Cirque du Soleil came from.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

For example, April 7 this year: downtown Montreal had -4.6C (23.7F) in the morning, and a maximum temperature that day of... -0.5C (31.1F), with snowfall. That same day, Paris had 11.1C (52.0F) in the morning, and a maximum of 24.9C (76.8F) in the afternoon, with sunshine, birds chirping in the trees, and sunset at 8:30pm due to our northerly location (Montréal's sunset that day was at 7:30pm under a gray sky and falling snow).

A one-day point in time comparison - in an unusually cold year in one place and unsually warm one in the other no less - is pretty disingenuous.

I won't pretend that April in Montreal is great, but the actual climate data for the month has a daily mean min to max of 1.1°C to 11.3°C, versus 7.9°C to 16.6°C in Paris. Paris is obviously warmer and spring comes earlier, but 20 degree days in Paris while Montreal freezes is not a typical occurrence.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

A one-day point in time comparison - in an unusually cold year in one place and unsually warm one in the other no less - is pretty disingenuous.

I won't pretend that April in Montreal is great, but the actual climate data for the month has a daily mean min to max of 1.1°C to 11.3°C, versus 7.9°C to 16.6°C in Paris. Paris is obviously warmer and spring comes earlier, but 20 degree days in Paris while Montreal freezes is not a typical occurrence.

There were 8.8 days above 20C in Paris in April on average in the past 5 years (and 14 days this year, with climate warming up). And not a single day with frost.

In comparison, downtown Montréal had 8.2 days with frost in April on average in the past 5 years, and 2.0 days above 20C.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

In any case, somehow Montrealers manage.

Just as I imagined, before someone decided to hijack the thread with his 147th "I CAN'T STAND COLD WEATHER!!!!" rant.

Many (but clearly not all) humans are fairly resilient, and learn to cope with all kinds of less than ideal situations all around the world.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

I think the contention of them being "stupid" comes from the fact that there is no interior stair at all to access the upper unit(s), which is less than ideal given Montreal's no-joke winters.

In Chicago, another city famed for its giant amount of small-scale MFH, our flats (or "plexes"aa they're called in Montreal-ese) always have at least 1 interior stair at the front entrance, and then an addition exterior open stair/porch at the rear (some of which have been subsequently enclosed). This allows for at least one enclosed path of vertical movement in the building during winter's worst.

It's pretty common of NYC row houses that the main entrance is on the second level of the structure. NYC may not be Montreal cold, but it still gets pretty cold here in the winter.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/puaQrAoEiR629sMM6

Although they all will have ground level entrances, like Montreal, the ground floor entrance is almost always the entrance to an individual unit. Even in cases where the owner occupies most of the house, they will often subdivide the ground floor unit to rent to a tenant and live in the upper floors.

There is also this new style of apartment building where there are no interior shared spaces. All of the units are directly accessed from outside, and the staircases are on the exterior: https://maps.app.goo.gl/mTpEL5Hq8PG6eV3U7

Anyway, I'd imagine that Montreal's set back rules played the biggest factor in that design choice. Building the staircases on the exterior appears to be a loophole around the set back requirements that allows them to maximize the living space inside the units.

[38 Geary]

https://maps.app.goo.gl/VYMvg968n4SpCUt17
https://maps.app.goo.gl/t5k81VJgAHeHHZi86
https://maps.app.goo.gl/oNUvyR7bShEmgcpN6

Very common in SF as well. Exterior stairs leading to 2nd level, but there's also a separate entrance on the ground level next to the garage, often being separate units. Often shared as multigenerational housing but often also rented out to someone else as well.

[Docere]

Every attempt to come up with a convincing Montreal "analogue" elsewhere fails. It's the second largest city in Canada but it's also the "hub" for Canada's 8 million francophones and a significant city in the francophone world. It's pretty unique.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

In this video from 1960 for instance, you can hear several Montrealers saying they are sick and tired of the cold

Canadians bitching about cold weather knowing they live in Canada is a time honoured yearly tradition in winter in every province, territory and every village, town, city throughout the nation. What does the video from 66 years ago prove? lol

If 70,000+ Filipinos can handle Winnipeg cold and also comprise a notable percentage of Yellowknife's population, Montreal is certainly not as bad as you're trying to make it seem.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

It's pretty common of NYC row houses that the main entrance is on the second level of the structure. NYC may not be Montreal cold, but it still gets pretty cold here in the winter.

We have some "enter on the second floor" flats in Chicago too, particularly in the oldest parts of town where there are a lot of depressed lot sites at the old city datum prior to the streets getting raised.

But once lots got standardized to be a street level everwhere in the late 19th, pretty much every flat building built thereafter either has a half flight stoop up to the first floor (usually 5' - 6' above grade, and then an internal building staircase from there), or an at-grade entrance directly into the stair hall/foyer at the 1/2 level between basement and first floor.

[mousquet]

@Brisavoine So...

When it's hot in France, you're unhappy, making fun of the entire country because it's not air-conditioned enough.

When it's cold in Québec, you're unhappy just as well, claiming that everybody should move out their region.

Question: when are you happy? Is it possible to make of you a happy individual? Move to Spain. Do something, goddammit.
I'm sick of people like you complaining all the time.

[3rd&Brown]

People who build an entire life plan around weather are so curious to me.

We've been told Florida and Texas have "good weather", but 3-4 months out of the year with 95+ degree Temps and 100% humidity hardly qualifies as "good" to me. I can barely keep my head upright in those conditions.

It's no different to me than 3-4 months cold weather in another locale.

In any case, I'd take Montreal over most Southern US cities with "good weather". Imagine moving to Charlotte over Montreal because it has a more temperate climate. I mean it's laughable.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by craigs

I read that essay, and I still concur that having outdoor iron staircases in a climate like Montreal's seems crazy.

They seem to have survived just fine without hundreds of winter staircase fatalities.

[craigs]

Originally Posted by whatnext

They seem to have survived just fine without hundreds of winter staircase fatalities.

How many Montrealers are injured on those outdoor staircases each winter?

[Docere]

Language Spoken at Home: Montreal

English only 236,770 13.6%
French only 743,335 42.7%
English and French 146,050 10.5%
Nonofficial language alone or in combination 615,090 35.3%

Language Spoken at Home: Montreal Island

English only 340,470 17.2%
French only 779,125 39.3%
English and French 173,175 8.7%
Nonofficial language alone or in combination 687,285 34.7%

Language Spoken at Home: Montreal Census Metropolitan Area

English only 486,650 11.5%
French only 2,376,795 56%
English and French 321,305 7.2%
Nonofficial language alone or in combination 1,061,405 25%

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Docere

Language Spoken at Home: Montreal Census Metropolitan Area

English only 486,650 11.5%
French only 2,376,795 56%
English and French 321,305 7.2%
Nonofficial language alone or in combination 1,061,405 25%

These figures downplay the importance of French in Montréal, because you did not list separately "French and a non-official language".

A more faithful representation is this:

At the 2021 census, people in the Montréal metro area reported that the language they spoke at home either exclusively (i.e. no other language spoken), or the most, or equally with another language was:
- French: 69.2%
- English: 20.8%
- another language: 17.5%

(percentages add up to more than 100% because some people speak more than one language at home)

Also, at the 2021 census in the Montréal metro area, 33.8% of people reported that they could have a conversation in French only (i.e. they either know no English, or their English is so bad they cannot really have a conversation in it). Only 8.2% of the people reported that they could have a conversation in English only (which is already pretty high for a city that functions essentially in French). 1.6% reported that they could have a conversation in neither French nor English. So if you do the math, that means 90.2% of people in the Montréal metro area can have a conversation in French, and 9.8% cannot. 64.6% of people can have a conversation in English, and 35.4% cannot. So if you're a French tourist in Montréal, only 1 person in 10 will not be able to converse in French with you, whereas if you're an Anglo tourist in Montréal, a bit more than 1/3 of people will not be able to have a conversation with you in English.

PS: For the Québec City metro area, 99.4% will be able to have a conversation with you in French, whereas only 41.8% will be able to have a conversation with you in English.

[BigDipper 80]

A lot of Quebec City actually reminds me of Pittsburgh, particularly just west of Old Quebec.