Alto High Speed Rail

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Not that Imbleau had a choice. But this is a poor decision by the minister to interfere. It basically destroys Alto's decision space. They have to use the southern routing now. And they have to build outside their mapped corridors to serve Kingston. Are we going to turn Kingston into an exurb of Ottawa? The only way the cost of this makes sense.

The Lakeshore communities should be more upset. If Kingston gets an HSR stop, Corridor East is dead.

This whole thing seems weird. They didn't announce a change in route or cancellation of Peterbourough. Why go via Ottawa if you are using a southern route?

The whole thing is starting to look not very serious and more about appearing to move at new speeds with new ambition than actually doing either of those things.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

As a small exercise I asked Google Gemini to run a basic gravity model of passenger demand on Alto and estimate share of total ridership. Some notes for Ottawa.

Ridership share:

Ottawa – Montreal ~42%
Toronto – Ottawa ~14%
Kingston – Ottawa ~2.3%

Traffic note:

Ottawa – Montreal Segment: Carries the heaviest load (approx. 66-67% of all passengers), as it transports Ottawa-Montreal riders plus Toronto-Montreal, Toronto-Quebec City, and Ottawa-Quebec City riders.

Ottawa will be second only to Montreal for ridership. 30% of all ridership flowing through Ottawa's station. Montreal is at 38%. Toronto is at 19%.

Plenty of obvious that this thing is massively impactful to Ottawa. So weird to me to see people in this particular forum who write off this project.

This is an interesting first stab but current Via traffic doesn't neccesarily predict where traffic will increase. If Ottawa is 1 hour from Montreal we start seeing commuting and daytrips. Kingston I suppose some some of the same potential if they are 60 minutes away. Teh current station in Kingston is kind of suburban making bus the go to for students and a faster more expensive ticket probably doesn't change that. Montreal from 5 hours to 2.5 or it looks like 3 with the way things are going won't be that impactful. Montreal also has less connection with Toronto than you'd epect given the two solitudes.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

This whole thing seems weird. They didn't announce a change in route or cancellation of Peterbourough. Why go via Ottawa if you are using a southern route?

The whole thing is starting to look not very serious and more about appearing to move at new speeds with new ambition than actually doing either of those things.

Or maybe they actually started looking into the northern route and discovered the Canadian shield.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

RE: Ridership Share
You neglected to show any ridership share between Kingston and Toronto. The main flow of passengers to Kingston is between Kingston, not Ottawa.

I pulled the parts that were relevant to this (the Ottawa) subforum.

Originally Posted by GoTrans

RE: Traffic Note:
How does the Ridership Share and Traffic Note correspond to each other?

It doesn't have to. I put that note there to point out how insanely busy the Ottawa-Montreal segment will be.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Or maybe they actually started looking into the northern route and discovered the Canadian shield.

During consultations they regularly said the Northern corridor had more construction challenges. And the southern corridor had more land acquisition and conflict challenges.

I don't think it's that bad to build on the northern route. And I personally think nimbys are the greatest threat here.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

During consultations they regularly said the Northern corridor had more construction challenges. And the southern corridor had more land acquisition and conflict challenges.

I don't think it's that bad to build on the northern route. And I personally think nimbys are the greatest threat here.

Paying off NIMBY’s or building elevated tracks is almost certainly cheaper and faster than tunneling through highlands or dealing with indigenous litigation. The only reason the Northern route was even considered is that the grifters at Via convinced the government that an oatmeal train with a 10mph speed limit could be upgraded for nearly free. Alto has possibly now talked to some engineers or geologists.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

During consultations they regularly said the Northern corridor had more construction challenges. And the southern corridor had more land acquisition and conflict challenges.

I don't think it's that bad to build on the northern route. And I personally think nimbys are the greatest threat here.

Agree. Our recent history suggests construction challenges are much easier and cheaper to overcome than NIMBY and Indigenous "consultations". I don't think the southern route avoids the latter. It's probably easier to pay them to go direclty through an established reservation than come within 50 km of a southern one and claim they need to be compensated.

[DarthVader_1961]

What is this obsession with the island airport expansion?

Apparently, Ontario rethinking Alto support because feds nixed island airport expansion.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/billy-bishop-jets-alto-high-speed-rail-9.7287885

[Dengler Avenue]

^ As Truenorth00 has alluded to before, now you know whom not to vote for.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by DarthVader_1961

What is this obsession with the island airport expansion?

Apparently, Ontario rethinking Alto support because feds nixed island airport expansion.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/billy-bishop-jets-alto-high-speed-rail-9.7287885

Someone is having himself a big ol' sookytime.

[hipster duck]

Rather than sowing doubt in Alto as a project, I think this news actually gives me confidence that it will be built.

That Carney made a backroom deal with Ford to support Alto in exchange for supporting the island airport expansion suggests that Carney has some skin in the game and is personally committed to the project. Up until now, I was under the impression that Carney didn't care as much for HSR as he did for Western resource projects where he really went to the mat.

Ford has a rubber spine. I'm sure the Feds can dangle some other treat for him behind the scenes and he'll drop all his opposition.

[ponyboycurtis]

Originally Posted by DarthVader_1961

What is this obsession with the island airport expansion?

Apparently, Ontario rethinking Alto support because feds nixed island airport expansion.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/billy-bishop-jets-alto-high-speed-rail-9.7287885

Dear lord.

A press conference to comment on one of the biggest civil infrastructure projects in the history of the country coming from. St. Thomas, Ontario. NEAT!

If I can't have my 600 kph private jet you can't have your 300 kph public train!

[rocketphish]

I've deleted a series of off-topic posts about the Toronto City Airport. There are other threads in the TO subs for that discussion.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

I've deleted a series of off-topic posts about the Toronto City Airport. There are other threads in the TO subs for that discussion.

Could have gone in the general aviation thread.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

"Common Ground Research". "Established" this calendar year; no "who we are" information to identify who the principles behind this sham organization are; GARBAGE survey design with leading or closed-ended questions; email-harvesting included; fake social media outlinks.

Colour me suspicious.

I get email:

A new report from Common Ground Research has revealed a gap in public confidence in the ALTO HSR project.
Read the report here: www.commongroundresearch.org
The new report, The ALTO Confidence Gap, finds:

• more than 80% of respondents oppost the project
• opposition is rooted in concerns about route transparency, cost, and community benefits
• more than 75% of respondents support studying a rail alternative along the existing Toronto–Ottawa–Montreal corridor
• 75% of respondents say Alto will be a major factor in their federal vote
• respondents place a reasonable one-way Toronto–Montreal fare at $100

These findings were based on an online poll conducted between June 25 and July 18, 2026.

Kind regards,
Common Ground Research

[lrt's friend]

We should do a similar survey on spending $$$B of federal m0ney to add additional lanes on highway 401 and autoroute 20 as an alternative and send the survey nation wide. Will that receive support either?

It is easy to oppose a project when alternatives are not priced and some westerners will oppose anything that benefits Ontario and Quebec.

[Kitchissippi]

I’ve gotten to despise VIA Rail for their baggage policies and have preferred taking a bus over the train. With regular fare now anything above airline carry on size is an extra $25. Even their size limit for business class is below that of airline check in luggage. I asked why and was told it had something to do with union rules of how much size and weight staff can handle if they had to move things around. If ALTO ends up being the same way I couldn’t care less if this project gets cancelled.

[Ottawacurious]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I’ve gotten to despise VIA Rail for their baggage policies and have preferred taking a bus over the train. With regular fare now anything above airline carry on size is an extra $25. Even their size limit for business class is below that of airline check in luggage. I asked why and was told it had something to do with union rules of how much size and weight staff can handle if they had to move things around. If ALTO ends up being the same way I couldn’t care less if this project gets cancelled.

Wow, had no idea on that.

[Nouvellecosse]

That's wild. I wonder how charging extra would even affect the workers unless they're paying the staff extra when they're lifting heavier items? But if there's just a limit on how much is considered safe for them to have to lift then charging extra wouldn't change that. Sounds more like a cash grab to me.

[Kitchissippi]

I asked that question to the person weighing luggage because it seems like a waste of time when it matters very little on a heavy train plus people wheel their own luggage in anyway.

I used to take the train to catch a flight from Dorval but there’s no way I would or could do that now if I had luggage. Orleans Express takes two pieces of luggage no questions asked plus they drop you directly at the terminal doors.

I also used to like to take the train to Montreal or Toronto with my Brompton bike which folds down to the size of a suitcase. VIA now wants $25 just because it’s a bike. Any bus I’ve taken anywhere in Ontario and Quebec has carried it for free as part of my baggage allowance.